kris

2 Different Tank Roles? (Templar Vs Knight)

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I'm thinking more like TOR in this respect. Your base makes up half your skills. The prestige makes up the other half.

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The Knight will be the main tank and the Templar will end up being an off tank at best. I have seen it in many games with the sword and shield class is the best tank for the end game and 2H class is good for lesser content, but not tanking the end game. I hope that either class can tank effectively in the end.

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I've not seen that approach.  Death Knights in World of Warcraft were two-hander tanks who surpassed all other tanks when it came to end game content.  Void Knight was brilliant at tanking the end game in RIFT and served his role best with a two-hander.

 

Generally all tanks are required to do is stay alive and keep aggro.  If your healers are powerful enough to keep you alive without a shield, then keeping aggro goes hands down to the guy dealing two-hander damage.

Edited by Kyutaru

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Also, there is no "end game". The end game starts the minute you enter your first PVP engagement and never stops. Either the templar makes a decent tank or he doesnt, but there's no "good mid game but weak end game" scenario to worry about.

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From what I have heard the term Tank doesn't really apply to holding aggro on NPC's like in the traditional MMO terminology.  Here they are using Tank to mean more survivability than your average archetype.  The Knight will do it with his Shield Block and with mitigation via heavy armor and mass.  The Templar will stay alive longer with a solid health pool and avoidance like evade rolls, dashes, or leaps rather than blocking attacks.  

 

At least that is what I think it will be like from what I have gathered from the archetype icons plus the interviews I have seen thus far.  

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Also, there is no "end game". The end game starts the minute you enter your first PVP engagement and never stops. Either the templar makes a decent tank or he doesnt, but there's no "good mid game but weak end game" scenario to worry about.

 

Like Druid, Huntress, and Berserker didn't have an advantage at server up over other Shadowbane classes?  There's definitely progression, more so in a game where every campaign resets and you enter the next one devoid of gear.  Some classes are great at server start because of early skill availability and they don't need much gear while others grow into powerhouses in the "end game" because they scale better.

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The main difference I've seen between the two (that can be quantified) is that the Knight gets a higher Spirit score versus a higher Intellect score for the Templar. This may amount to having access to different skillsets outside of just damage mitigation, for example the Templar might have access to more typically "arcane" skills related to the Confessor or Frostweaver, while the Knight might some higher resistances and/or access to different "support" type skills of the Forgemaster and Druid.

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Also, there is no "end game". The end game starts the minute you enter your first PVP engagement and never stops. Either the templar makes a decent tank or he doesnt, but there's no "good mid game but weak end game" scenario to worry about.

Actually...that is not true anymore. We do have to rethink how we view early/mid/endgame now however.

Spring is early game, summer and fall are mid game, and winter is end game.

 

I expect Templar to shine best in the open skirmishes of the mid game, while the knight's shield block skills make it the go-to class for late game sieges as you know exactly where the attacks are coming from and can count on others to protect your flanks.

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Maybe Templars will be better off-tanks.  Perhaps able to deal out a little more DPS, better AOE damage, however not as tough on a single target.

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Generally all tanks are required to do is stay alive and keep aggro.  If your healers are powerful enough to keep you alive without a shield, then keeping aggro goes hands down to the guy dealing two-hander damage.

 

I'm curious why people keep throwing around the term 'Aggro' in an Open-World PvP game. Also, from what we've seen so far, there are not going to be any dedicated healers in Crowfall.

 

Dodging works just as well as blocking for avoiding damage when both are player controlled, barring different situational advantages that one might have over the other. Also, both the Templar and Knight have been shown wearing plate, so there doesn't seem to be much passive mitigation difference.

 

Thus, while I imagine that the Templar will have a bit of a steeper learning curve than the Knight due to the fact that dodging takes a bit more skill and experience in order to be used effectively, I don't see why either one would have a survivability advantage over the other. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Templar class is given a parry or two in order to help keep it more in line with the Knight in terms of ease of use.

Edited by Raizex

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Think Knight tanking will be more like on the basic defense and stun moves, and the templar maybe more of a dodging kind of char with maybe healing abilities

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Think Knight tanking will be more like on the basic defense and stun moves, and the templar maybe more of a dodging kind of char with maybe healing abilities

Would you mind giving reasons as to why you think this is so?

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Well, they did say they were steering away from healing in-combat.

 

The Knight seems to be the stereotypical tanky bruiser, sticking to the enemy and peeling for allies.

 

Maybe the Templar differs as a support by clearing debuffs and throwing defensive "bubbles" on allies?

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On the archtpye page it says for Knight Tank (mitigation) and Templar Tank (dodge).   That might not be that detailed of an explanation now, but I think its enough to get an idea...

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Yeah... atleast when i see this I think SWtOR... Jedi Knight heavy tank.  Jedi Counselor dodge tank.

 

One has armor to absorb damage, other mitigates damage.

 

I am just hoping that Justicar promotional class can do some dps :) .

Edited by Anaraion

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On the archtpye page it says for Knight Tank (mitigation) and Templar Tank (dodge).   That might not be that detailed of an explanation now, but I think its enough to get an idea...

 

This may be true, but I suppose my question is where is this extra mitigation coming from? I hate to make comparisons to real life, but as far as I understand it, plate armor basically made shields obsolete. I understand that this might not be how it works out in game, but the whole idea of plate armor was to free up your offhand to help you wield your weapon, which was usually either a polearm or a two-handed longsword. This meant that you had a reach advantage on your opponent, and even if they managed to close the distance, they would still have a difficult time of actually killing you.

 

 

Yeah... atleast when i see this I think SWtOR... Jedi Knight heavy tank.  Jedi Counselor dodge tank.

 

One has armor to absorb damage, other mitigates damage.

 

I am just hoping that Justicar promotional class can do some dps :) .

 

Once again, I'd like to point out that both the Templar and Knight wear plate armor. Why does one have a significant mitigation advantage over the other?

Edited by Raizex

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Once again, I'd like to point out that both the Templar and Knight wear plate armor. Why does one have a significant mitigation advantage over the other?

Actually, any archetype can wear any type of armor. Different types of armor have different advantages and disadvantages.

 

https://crowfall.com/#/news/armor-for-all-from-rule-to-choice

 

Templars will have a parry as their right click ability, as noted by Blair in this video:

 

The Hunger Dome w/ Special Guest Thomas Blair

 

So that will be part of their mitigation, just like block is part of the knight's mitigation. Knight's have the ability Of Noble Blood, which is a damage shield that explodes if still intact after X seconds, causing damage to nearby targets. They also have a passive heal at low health.

 

I would imagine that templars will have comparable abilities. Maybe they will have an active heal or a passive bubble. Maybe they will have an ability that increases certain resistance types for X seconds. 

 

It will be a while before we find out, as it looks like the next 3 archetypes to be added are champion, ranger and druid (Blair mentions in the above interview that druids will be the next support class added). But I suspect that they have some ideas on how to differentiate the playstyle between knights and templars.

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Thus, while I imagine that the Templar will have a bit of a steeper learning curve than the Knight due to the fact that dodging takes a bit more skill and experience in order to be used effectively, I don't see why either one would have a survivability advantage over the other. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Templar class is given a parry or two in order to help keep it more in line with the Knight in terms of ease of use.

 

What I am concerned about is the data mined info on starting abilities.  The Templar highest stat is not listed as his main stat according to this...

 

http://www.thedregs.net/topic/278-leak-inside-on-archetypes-and-a-list-of-reagents/?page=1

 

So while the dex shows we should be able to dodge well, it does not look like we can hurt much which makes no sense lugging around a 2H sword...  <_<

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What I am concerned about is the data mined info on starting abilities.  The Templar highest stat is not listed as his main stat according to this...

 

http://www.thedregs.net/topic/278-leak-inside-on-archetypes-and-a-list-of-reagents/?page=1

 

So while the dex shows we should be able to dodge well, it does not look like we can hurt much which makes no sense lugging around a 2H sword...  <_<

 

At this stage in the game I highly doubt any of those numbers are anywhere close to final. I'd also like to point out that two-handed longswords only weigh a couple of pounds, so strength isn't as big of a factor as you might think: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3OIjpLSaYQ

 

For those of you who would like to point out that this is a fantasy game, not real life, I would point out that the swords in Crowfall are actually of a very realistic size and shape, indicating that the devs are likely going for a more realistic combat system. This would be in contrast to two-handed longswords used by say, the slayer from TERA, which looks like it might weigh more than the character itself.

Edited by Raizex

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What I am concerned about is the data mined info on starting abilities.  The Templar highest stat is not listed as his main stat according to this...

 

http://www.thedregs.net/topic/278-leak-inside-on-archetypes-and-a-list-of-reagents/?page=1

 

So while the dex shows we should be able to dodge well, it does not look like we can hurt much which makes no sense lugging around a 2H sword...  <_<

Dodging won't be a dice roll, so dexterity should have no effect on that. As I noted in the post above yours, Templars will get a Parry as their right click ability. It will probably be a click and hold ability that uses stamina, like Knight's block. I'd guess that parry will be more costly to use, but will mitigate 100% of the damage (whereas block only mitigates about 70%).

 

There are still a lot of unknowns regarding how stats will affect our characters. It's possible that dexterity will increase your max stamina and/or reduce the cost of parry. It may also increase mitigation against physical damage types, since those are percentages. Maybe it will even increase sprint speed. If there is a "Fast, but stupid" advantage/disadvantage that increases dex and reduces intelligence, I'd probably take that as a knight :)

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