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Plate/Ring Armor


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Has anyone seen anything that indicates they are aware that Plate and Ring armor require a not-overlookable amount of Iron Ore; and not in a way that any stats get inherited from it? It seems very odd to me that a high reliance on a single material is needed for two of three armor types. If I want to make a full Plate Armor set out of Copper to get +HP, I should only need Copper to make it.  

It's a game with magic, it doesn't have to make sense. They seem to be focused too much on that with the introduction of "Steel" (Iron + Carbon). Why wouldn't I make something entirely out of Steel if the ability to make it exists? Surely it's better than any single metal currently in the game if they are trying to stick to logic (Gold, Silver, Iron, or Bronze?).

Someone Blair should fix this :P 

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....man, I asked this a while ago and I think Blair answered me, but I don't remember where...or what he saiiiiiiiiid... >___________>

Pointless post is pointless. :(

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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@scree Maybe they haven't introduced those blacksmithing recipes yet.  I haven't obtained them yet but on the BS tier skill tree there are slots for "advance BS recipes" for armor.  

I understand what you are saying and if they do not have an intention of adding any other recipes then yes, I believe they should consider plate and ring having more options for the type of ore used.

 

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I would much prefer a system whereby you could choose what metals to make items out of but they would each come with both costs and benefits. Iron would be rigid, gold soft, etc., etc. That way there's more real choice about what kind of gear you want to be using at any given time beyond the pretty minor buffs the materials confer. That said, I find the possibility of this so extremely unlikely I don't even hope for it.

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I agree.

What it does is elevates iron above all other materials because the demand is inherently higher, regardless of the stats. 

Its a core flaw in the theory that all the materials are supposedly equal.

Its the exact issue i had with the first implementation of tools, gold was not supposed to be the best but the tool crafting curved the supply and demand that made it the best.

CfWBSig.png

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53 minutes ago, Vectious said:

I agree.

What it does is elevates iron above all other materials because the demand is inherently higher, regardless of the stats. 

Its a core flaw in the theory that all the materials are supposedly equal.

Its the exact issue i had with the first implementation of tools, gold was not supposed to be the best but the tool crafting curved the supply and demand that made it the best.

A counter balance could be to use more specific materials in other forms of crafting.

For example, books could have a silver/gold base, and necromancy could require copper (ala Frankenstein conductivity).

We also have no clue what the hungry spawners want/need, or the frequency volume of production for of POI's.

If the Iron is in higher quantities in POI's, what will happen is most good crafters will simply bootstrap the bulk iron parts, rather than waste harvested quality. 

There are more levers to pull than just switching it to a different or nondescript metal.

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Just now, KrakkenSmacken said:

A counter balance could be to use more specific materials in other forms of crafting.

For example, books could have a silver/gold base, and necromancy could require copper (ala Frankenstein conductivity).

We also have no clue what the hungry spawners want/need, or the frequency volume of production for of POI's.

If the Iron is in higher quantities in POI's, what will happen is most good crafters will simply bootstrap the bulk iron parts, rather than waste harvested quality. 

There are more levers to pull than just switching it to a different or nondescript metal.

This is fair.

But you would have to make it all balance in the end so each material that is 100% required for a item be needed as much or at least as often as other material.

Well maybe not 100%, but at least reasonably close. Might be more work then worth when you can just unmark that iron restriction. 

 

And as for making things realistic, lets not pretend we cant make a 100% tin sword. 

CfWBSig.png

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The amount of Iron to equip a 20 man guild in plate or chain or a blend is pretty ridiculous, it will shift POI's to Iron spawn points. That's not a bad concept for creating conflict but imho goes against the concept that no one ore is supposedly 'better' than another. Iron already give Attack Power, so it will of course be in demand but not sure why it should also be the 'metal glue' to hold all chain and plate together  

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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42 minutes ago, Vectious said:

This is fair.

But you would have to make it all balance in the end so each material that is 100% required for a item be needed as much or at least as often as other material.

Well maybe not 100%, but at least reasonably close. Might be more work then worth when you can just unmark that iron restriction. 

 

And as for making things realistic, lets not pretend we cant make a 100% tin sword. 

You're not wrong.  Personally I would like to see a base property that created a meaningful choice on all items determined by a base material used.

9 hours ago, goose said:

....man, I asked this a while ago and I think Blair answered me, but I don't remember where...or what he saiiiiiiiiid... >___________>

Pointless post is pointless. :(

I remember that Q&A, and it was another one of those "Blair didn't take time to actually understand the question" answers, similar to "when will you revamp the ore training because copper..." question that was also misunderstood.

Later they did circle back and adjust that, so maybe when they make a second/third pass on armor they will wake up to the fact that putting base iron requirements should be replaced by a stack of bars or something.

 

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14 hours ago, scree said:

Has anyone seen anything that indicates they are aware that Plate and Ring armor require a not-overlookable amount of Iron Ore; and not in a way that any stats get inherited from it? It seems very odd to me that a high reliance on a single material is needed for two of three armor types. If I want to make a full Plate Armor set out of Copper to get +HP, I should only need Copper to make it.  

It's a game with magic, it doesn't have to make sense. They seem to be focused too much on that with the introduction of "Steel" (Iron + Carbon). Why wouldn't I make something entirely out of Steel if the ability to make it exists? Surely it's better than any single metal currently in the game if they are trying to stick to logic (Gold, Silver, Iron, or Bronze?).

Someone Blair should fix this :P 

Here's another way to look at it:  Yes, it should "make sense", whatever that topic is.  Even in a fantasy MMO virtual world.

Let me put this in context so you understand my view point:

  • The target audience is live human beings.  As such it is inevitably necessary to form / shape "things" within that domain of natural expectations.

As humans we expect a wall to stop us.  Because that's what walls do.

We expect to have to open a door, because that's how they work.

We expect to have to swim when we jump into water, and drown if we stay under too long.

We expect to be able to breathe under water . . . if we have a respirator equipped or have taken a water breathing potion.  Natural expectations have still been met, consistent with stories and lore and mythology.

We expect to drop to our deaths if we jump off a cliff, unless we have a feather fall spell or a mount or a glider.

We expect a blacksmith to be able to refine Ore into Ingots, not a Weaver.  We expect a bowyer to have the skills to make a Bow, not a Stone Mason.

Etc., etc., etc.

Yes, things absolutely "have" to "make sense".

Many of the bugs, exploits, even unintended mechanics/dynamics that I've seen cause all sorts of trouble in other games came from issues that, at a basic level, DIDN'T make any sense.  Even though a programmer can make ANYTHING happen, that's not enough.  At some level it must "make sense".

In some cases the conscious choice will be to do something that doesn't "make sense", but is implemented anyway, for very specific and intentional game-play reasons.  For instance:  Everyone swims at the same speed in 50ft of water, even if you are wearing full-out plate, leathers, and now-waterlogged robes.  That makes no sense at all, but illustrates there are always exceptions to every rule.

The trick here is that exceptions like this, in a right minded sense, would be exceptions only after very clear and targeted consideration, not casual just-because.

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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2 minutes ago, Bramble said:

Here's another way to look at it:  Yes, it should "make sense", whatever that topic is.  Even in a fantasy MMO virtual world.

Let me put this in context so you understand my view point:

  • The target audience is live human beings.  As such it is inevitably necessary to form / shape "things" within that domain of natural expectations.

As humans we expect a wall to stop us.  Because that's what walls do.

We expect to have to open a door, because that's how they work.

We expect to have to swim when we jump into water, and drown if we stay under too long.

We expect to be able to breathe under water . . . if we have a respirator equipped or have taken a water breathing potion.  Natural expectations have still been met, consistent with stories and lore and mythology.

We expect to drop to our deaths if we jump off a cliff, unless we have a feather fall spell or a mount or a glider.

We expect a blacksmith to be able to refine Ore into Ingots, not a Weaver.  We expect a bowyer to have the skills to make a Bow, not a Stone Mason.

Etc., etc., etc.

Yes, things absolutely "have" to "make sense".

Many of the bugs, exploits, even unintended mechanics/dynamics that I've seen cause all sorts of trouble in other games came from issues that, at a basic level, DIDN'T make any sense.  Even though a programmer can make ANYTHING happen, that's not enough.  At some level it must "make sense".

In some cases the conscious choice will be to do something that doesn't "make sense", but is implemented anyway, for very specific and intentional game-play reasons.  For instance:  Everyone swims at the same speed in 50ft of water, even if you are wearing full-out plate, leathers, and now-waterlogged robes.  That makes no sense at all, but illustrates there are always exceptions to every rule.

The trick here is that exceptions like this, in a right minded sense, would be exceptions only after very clear and targeted consideration, not casual just-because.

Along the "Makes sense" line, we would have to have a different counter balance to deal with Iron.

For example, Iron nodes are common, while Gold nodes are rare, because that makes sense because that's the way elements distribute naturally.

The fact it looks like they are treating ore types more like different colors than different materials, lends to the problem of elevating one over the other.  If they really wanted realistic balance that made sense, in addition to having more nodes of Iron, they could also give them different/higher drop rates for the same level of training.

That way production would move alongside demand. Right now it's a very simplistic mixing system, where every element is given near equal weight.  

That seems like a third/fourth pass kind of thing, long after we see the impact that POI's have on the whole kit and kaboodle.

 

 

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I'll chime in and say that I personally think that not only is the amount too much for a beginning recipe, but it is too limiting to prescribe the type of ore that has to be used.  I agree that iron shouldn't be a forced component, unless you are looking for that specific type of +stat for the armor.

Basic armor made from slag should have inherent stat limiters because of the quality of recipe, not the quality of resources.  The first plate recipe a blacksmith can make should be better than basic armor, but should also have inherent stat limiters because of recipe quality.

For a supposed system that allows the players to choose what materials to use, when it comes to armor, they force too much on us.  It's not hard to make weapons, I am looking for a way to make better than basic plate (or chain/leather) so bonuses can actually be applied from training.

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I am hopeful that Blair already understands the current Armor recipes come from pre-gathering-changes that eliminated the "tiers" of materials. Hopefully this doesn't skip over his radar when they do final balances changes.

I'm embarrassed to say I only just now discovered the Plate limitations in researching an article I'm writing. It seemed highly unfair to place such a high level of importance on Iron. It would become the defacto currency overnight because of it. It would be the focal point of all conflicts, and demand the attention of anyone passing near it.

Good thing I made a Stealth guild and only need leather. :P

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2 hours ago, scree said:

I am hopeful that Blair already understands the current Armor recipes come from pre-gathering-changes that eliminated the "tiers" of materials. Hopefully this doesn't skip over his radar when they do final balances changes.

I'm embarrassed to say I only just now discovered the Plate limitations in researching an article I'm writing. It seemed highly unfair to place such a high level of importance on Iron. It would become the defacto currency overnight because of it. It would be the focal point of all conflicts, and demand the attention of anyone passing near it.

Good thing I made a Stealth guild and only need leather. :P

This is why we need to stop maligning gatherer and crafters. They're providing valuable feedback, as valuable as the core PvP folk. We can't afford to not comment on this stuff at this point. Very much looking forward to the article you're writing.

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