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eluidclyde

so tired of failed crafting

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I know the game is incomplete. but I have spent countless hours trying to craft a sword.......... this level of frustration shouldn't happen over a basic item I have all my character points into crafting from the start of me playing, its been in crafting and yet still I cannot build a one handed sword and yes I have followed the correct path and it fails over and over I have tried over 15 times with no prevail. whats the deal this game shouldn't require so much time If this problem keeps occurring me and my entire group are no longer playing this game. I love crafting and I aim to craft in this game but the mechanic for failed crafting is so ridiculous!!!!! we play games to relax and unwind no be frustrated over and over. this game will fail if every person who logs on has to recraft items over and over to get a sword just a little bit better than a basic sword!!!!! fix it

Edited by eluidclyde

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Seems like we get this from a new player about every two weeks.  

ACE @thomasblair Take note, this mechanic is almost universally hated by new players that experience it, with good reason, it's classic operant conditioning punishment reinforcement.

Quote

Punishment (weakens behavior)

Punishment is defined as the opposite of reinforcement since it is designed to weaken or eliminate a response rather than increase it. It is an aversive event that decreases the behavior that it follows *(IE, people want to quit playing the crafting game over it)

Like reinforcement, punishment can work either by directly applying an unpleasant stimulus like a shock after a response or by removing a potentially rewarding stimulus, for instance, deducting someone’s pocket money to punish undesirable behavior.

Note: It is not always easy to distinguish between punishment and negative reinforcement.

There are many problems with using punishment, such as:

  • Punished behavior is not forgotten, it's suppressed - behavior returns when punishment is no longer present.

  • Causes increased aggression - shows that aggression is a way to cope with problems.

  • Creates fear that can generalize to undesirable behaviors, e.g., fear of school.

  • Does not necessarily guide toward desired behavior - reinforcement tells you what to do, punishment only tells you what not to do.

A Simple fix would be to:

  • Base the chance of failure on the level of bootstrapping being attempted.  
  • If you use 100% white material, you have 100% chance of success. If you try to bootstrap white into blue, you can fail.
  • If you use 100% blue material, you have 100% chance of success.  The trade off is that you have to spend the full amount of high quality mats to guarantee the success.

Easy peasy, makes sense, lets you keep total failure as a CHOICE, not an uncontrollable RNG risk.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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But, but, but, the risk vrs reward! Or something. 

Blech. 

On failure give people something like the plain metal bar. a twisted version like final combine for a failed one handed sword is a twisted brittle sword. Have it do half damage range and break easy. But make it salvageable as well. 

FAILED is just a bad conclusion and like Krakken has said many times feels quite bad to players. Every single Failure feels like this. 

giphy.gif

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Oh also to the OP. 

Did you see the alchemy potions? They put in a hack a while ago to help folks with the time it takes to learn crafting and gathering.

There are Alchemy pots you can make to give you a decent amount of crafting skill across ALL of the roles. (Way way way more powerful that it would seem with the way skills are set up.) It used to be like 4 times as strong as it is now or somesuch but it is still really strong to help craft/gather things. But training also helps a lot. It just takes forever to train crafting, and 5 times as long to train any 1 part of gathering. 

You should be able to make things with the pots running. You will still fail some, but you cant stop that even with years of training they seem to like to give those players a few swift kicks in the nuts now and then to keep them honest or something.

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after my guild and I have talked this over, we have tried at least 30 times all together with no one actually getting a sword. we are all giving up, and have decided to no longer play this game, good luck to all those who play this game and I hope this games does well. That being said if there is a repeat of users getting punished so harshly for a mechanic why keep it in the game.... food for thought..

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I have to ask how far you have trained that line of crafting for assembly success or are you strictly relying on the crutch pots?   There is risk, yes, and are you mitigating that risk, are you from the start working under the premise that things may fail?  This game is supposed to be Hard Core, and not just for the PvP, take peoples stuff, angle.   I know that assembly fail seems not to fit risk-reward mechanics because "what is the reward?" besides just getting the basic item you assemble.   Just like in open world PvP, and every Shadowbane or other hard core PvP player should know, you cannot rage over death OR assembly failure because it simply comes with the territory, expect it.  As a gatherer I am one out there risking my stuff to get these mats for crafting and I also craft (on an alt).   Since October I have had hundreds of failures constituting thousands of materials and you know what, I never start crafting without the mats to make 4 or 5 of what I want, in fact with the factory system coming and disregarding the items that cannot be factory produced like vessels, I prefer to have a full 25x what I need to craft so that I can attempt 5-10 tries for a blueprint.

Please consider your goals and the game concepts when you craft with expectations and little actual completed training...   expect to get dumped on and be pleasantly surprised by success rather than the other way around.  Without this attitude you simply cannot survive Crowfalls risks, period.  

Don't take this negatively please, understand that this is the game WE have been asking for since 2006.

 


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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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10 minutes ago, eluidclyde said:

after my guild and I have talked this over, we have tried at least 30 times all together with no one actually getting a sword. we are all giving up, and have decided to no longer play this game, good luck to all those who play this game and I hope this games does well. That being said if there is a repeat of users getting punished so harshly for a mechanic why keep it in the game.... food for thought..

It sounds like your guild would not have the toughness to survive in the Crowfall worlds...   expect griefing, rampant killing and extreme losses, this is no themepark, it is a sandbox, and every action including crafting takes skill and has higher risk to mitigate than your guild may have ever experienced before.  Crowfall players look to this as a challenge rather than an impediment, it keeps things real, and yes, it does quickly turn away the weak. 

FYI... it is absolutely NOT YET A GAME, it is a test for building the mechanics of a game and they ARE considering your words as well as mine.   By the simple statement that you believe you were playing a game and not a test you expose several flaws of logic.

Edited by Frykka

6FUI4Mk.jpg

                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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10 minutes ago, eluidclyde said:

after my guild and I have talked this over, we have tried at least 30 times all together with no one actually getting a sword. we are all giving up, and have decided to no longer play this game, good luck to all those who play this game and I hope this games does well. That being said if there is a repeat of users getting punished so harshly for a mechanic why keep it in the game.... food for thought..

 

10 minutes ago, Frykka said:

I have to ask how far you have trained that line of crafting for assembly success or are you strictly relying on the crutch pots?   There is risk, yes, and are you mitigating that risk, are you from the start working under the premise that things may fail?  This game is supposed to be Hard Core, and not just for the PvP, take peoples stuff, angle.   I know that assembly fail seems not to fit risk-reward mechanics because "what is the reward?" besides just getting the basic item you assemble.   Just like in open world PvP, and every Shadowbane or other hard core PvP player should know, you cannot rage over death OR assembly failure because it simply comes with the territory, expect it.  As a gatherer I am one out there risking my stuff to get these mats for crafting and I also craft (on an alt).   Since October I have had hundreds of failures constituting thousands of materials and you know what, I never start crafting without the mats to make 4 or 5 of what I want, in fact with the factory system coming and disregarding the items that cannot be factory produced like vessels, I prefer to have a full 25x what I need to craft so that I can attempt 5-10 tries for a blueprint.

Please consider your goals and the game concepts when you craft with expectations and little actual completed training...   expect to get dumped on and be pleasantly surprised by success rather than the other way around.  Without this attitude you simply cannot survive Crowfalls risks, period.  

Don't take this negatively please, understand that this is the game WE have been asking for since 2006.

 

They quit Frykka.

A whole guild interested and motivated to craft just gave up and said custard it, because of this one mechanic. A group of players that have already bought in, and tried in pre-alpha.  The hardest core of the hard core.

If that, and the scientific studies around operant conditioning isn't enough to tell you there is a core problem with the mechanic, then maybe you can explain how the game is better, and what the game is gaining for driving players away, that can't be accomplished with better mechanics.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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8 minutes ago, Frykka said:

It sounds like your guild would not have the toughness to survive in the Crowfall worlds...   expect griefing, rampant killing and extreme losses, this is no themepark, it is a sandbox, and every action including crafting takes skill and has higher risk to mitigate than your guild may have ever experienced before.  Crowfall players look to this as a challenge rather than an impediment, it keeps things real, and yes, it does quickly turn away the weak. 

FYI... it is absolutely NOT YET A GAME, it is a test for building the mechanics of a game and they ARE considering your words as well as mine.   By the simple statement that you believe you were playing a game and not a test you expose several flaws of logic.

my first words explain I know it is not a finished game...

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I understand and am disappointed as well... for quite different reasons.  Yes, we need and want a healthy population including crafting guilds.   However, I have to say that this is the typical example of a question of "fit" and whether we dilute the risk for everyone to attract players who may not, in the end, survive the brutality to come.   How will the guild react to getting utterly and completely destroyed in a CW, will they quit anyway at that point or would they bounce back stronger and more prepared like the more experienced guilds looking specifically for that challenge?

Edited by Frykka

6FUI4Mk.jpg

                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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Just now, Frykka said:

I understand and am disappointed as well... for quite different reasons.  Yes, we need and want a healthy population including crafting guilds.   However, I have to say that this is the typical example of a question of "fit" and whether we dilute the risk for everyone to attract players who may not, in the end, survive the brutality to come.   How will the guild react to getting utterly and completely destroyed in a CW, will they quit anyway at that point or would they bounce back stronger and more prepared like the more experienced guilds looking specifically for that challenge?

What risk?

It's simple mathematical material attrition.  It always happens at a fixed rate.

There is zero choice from the moment you harvest the first doober, to the time you have a finished item, when it comes to taking the chance that the RNG is just going to take your stuff.  

You can't train out of it, you can't avoid it by picking certain formulas, you can't do a damn thing except NOT CRAFT to avoid it.

That's not risk/reward, that's risk/punishment, and it's stupid and terrible.

 

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1 minute ago, eluidclyde said:

my first words explain I know it is not a finished game...

Things MAY change, actually, count on it...   yours is not the first story AND there is a bug that causes an extreme run of fails in a row that defies the stated odds.   It is known and will be fixed, we all get that crazy run of 4-5 fails in a row that should never happen.  Also weapons have a higher difficulty than armor to craft so you need more blacksmith skill, certainly more than pots give.   You are supposed to fight in "basic" weapons for about 19 days from launch...   it is an uphill battle that gets easier and easier... 6 months into training like many of us we have far far more success than fail.


6FUI4Mk.jpg

                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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an entire guild cant craft a sword we cant even get a decent weapon its a problem, no return on matts nothing but failure for 23 ppl all trying new ideas different materials. just trying to get one success on a non epic no special stats sword..... that's a decent effort with no reward..... so this game is you guys if you enjoy it I am happy for you we found it frustrating and we aren't asking for handouts that's just our opinion.

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13 minutes ago, eluidclyde said:

after my guild and I have talked this over, we have tried at least 30 times all together with no one actually getting a sword. we are all giving up, and have decided to no longer play this game, good luck to all those who play this game and I hope this games does well. That being said if there is a repeat of users getting punished so harshly for a mechanic why keep it in the game.... food for thought..

Is this a troll post? You are saying you and your guys have tried 30 different times to craft a sword and all of those crafts failed? That's impossible. I have zero points in craft skills and only with the crafting potions that is enough for me to craft whatever I want. Unless you were using the wrong alchemy potions, it must be a troll post. Maybe an alt troll post. :P


 

 

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2 minutes ago, Frykka said:

Things MAY change, actually, count on it...   yours is not the first story AND there is a bug that causes an extreme run of fails in a row that defies the stated odds.   It is known and will be fixed, we all get that crazy run of 4-5 fails in a row that should never happen.  Also weapons have a higher difficulty than armor to craft so you need more blacksmith skill, certainly more than pots give.   You are supposed to fight in "basic" weapons for about 19 days from launch...   it is an uphill battle that gets easier and easier... 6 months into training like many of us we have far far more success than fail.

so your saying if I don't create a character from launch I will be destroyed over and over for six months or so just soul crushing failure until a stat point trains high enough in a passive tree to make a sword........ no one will play this

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I can make swords all day long. Give me the mats. (plus my cut of course) and I can make your guild weapons.  Of course that comes with the promise of not ganking me and mine. 

But if yall are gone, so be it. Good luck out there. 

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Just now, Rikutatis said:

Is this a troll post? You are saying you and your guys have tried 30 different times to craft a sword and all of those crafts failed? That's impossible. I have zero points in craft skills and only with the crafting potions that is enough for me to craft whatever I want. Unless you were using the wrong alchemy potions, it must be a troll post. Maybe an alt troll post. :P

not a basic sword a one handed sword in our ek from all white matts because that all we have on our ek. we are not trolling that's why we are so mad and frustrated

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