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eluidclyde

so tired of failed crafting

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Lets get this back on track.

The problem with crafting is:

  • The high failure rate? This seems to be OP problem. And a bug.
  • The fact that you lose everything when failing? This is for the "You got nothing!".gif guy.
  • Lack of any control in the process . Courtesy of Dondagora.

They are not the same. Pick one. If you have another problem just say so and i will add.

Edited by BarriaKarl

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1 hour ago, BarriaKarl said:

Lets get this back on track.

The problem with crafting is:

  • The high failure rate? This seems to be OP problem. And a bug.
  • The fact that you lose everything when failing? This is for the "You got nothing!".gif guy.

They are not the same. Pick one. If you have another problem just say so and i will add.

"Lack of any control in the process" is my main issue. This isn't in terms of "drink this potion and get a better modifier" type of control, but rather any dynamic in which the player's mechanical or intellectual ability is tested against to alter the results. Imagine this as an analogy to game combat:

  • PvP is what we'd like. Two players, even playing field, have their skills tested and the winner will typically be the one who is more skilled. You can modify the analogy any way you want, but the point is that one's success is based on their skill. In this context, relying on modifiers is about the equivalent of relying on raw numbers, AKA zerging, so you can see why I don't feel like considering that as any type of real "control" over the situation (you don't see anyone justifying bad combat by saying "you can be better by getting more people on your side!").
  • PvE is what we'd not like, and what it currently is. I don't mean literally, but within the context of this analogy. This specific PvE scenario is having this big, giant, huge boss which may, or may not, at any given interval insta-kill you. You can't dodge it, or block it, or do anything to really mitigate it. The point is is that this is a no-skill fight. You can increase your chance of victory by, you guessed it, zerging/modifiers. If there's a 99% chance of instakilling any individual player, than use a group of 100 players and one of them may survive! Luck and brute force become the only contributing factors to this victory.

Should you understand this analogy, you should understand my distaste for the current system. Hopefully it isn't complete and they'll have a crafting minigame with some depth, but the current iteration is not healthy for the game. It doesn't attract crafters in a system in which crafters will be the singular provider of all useful things, the backbone. A weak backbone tends to make the person(game) flop.

 

(To be clear, I think Scree [below me] is responding to Barriakarl when he's mentioning "bullet points".)

Edited by Dondagora

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In regards to those two summarized bullet points;

1.) Not an issue. This is merely players having access to recipes long before they should/will in the actual game. As the player skills up they get access to more recipes and simultaneously should have the skill to craft those items with reasonable success. I imagine a good deal of the complaints here are made by people without any crafting gear on, minimal training skills in what they are trying to craft, and don't realize disciplines and potions will potentially augment all of this.

In response to someone who said, "what are these forums for if not to submit bug complaints or feedback?", you are partially right. There are specific threads for these two types of issues, all of which are in the respective test forums. But, as we've already covered, most of these complaints are being very naive about the systems implemented and being forward looking.

2.) I wouldn't mind un-usable gray items being crafted on failure, and being forced to break them down. However, please keep in the mind the salvaging system isn't online yet, and this might very well be the intended vision for the crafting system in the first place. Perhaps asking that question or getting it asked for one of the monthly Q&A's is a good first step?

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27 minutes ago, Dondagora said:

"Lack of any control in the process" is my main issue. This isn't in terms of "drink this potion and get a better modifier" type of control, but rather any dynamic in which the player's mechanical or intellectual ability is tested against to alter the results.

Should you understand this analogy, you should understand my distaste for the current system. Hopefully it isn't complete and they'll have a crafting minigame with some depth, but the current iteration is not healthy for the game. It doesn't attract crafters in a system in which crafters will be the singular provider of all useful things, the backbone. A weak backbone tends to make the person(game) flop.

So you want a skill challenge? I would love more player interaction not only in crafting but i never saw a good way to do this. Do you have any example of a well done crafting challenge in any game?

I did a quick search and got FFXIV as the best interactive crafting process and watched a video of a player explaining how the system works.

Basically when crafting you can either use auto-craft for a normal quality product or try a skill challenge and try for a better quality. So far so good.

The skill challenge was basically using abilities to increase the quality bar before the progress bar was filled. The more abilities you use the more your item durability decreases. If when the progress bar finishes you have a 0 durability item it is a fail.
The dude in the video was too high level for the item so i only got that. If anyone crafted in FF14 feel free to explain properly.

I am not sure a system like that could be implemented in CF. Not without changing how crafting works here.

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@BarriaKarl

At the high level you have five factors in FFXIV Crafting:

Pool of available skills on your hot bar, directly related to your crafting level (skills available to that level)

An "endurance bar" (Crafting Points) that sort of acts like a mana bar.  Certain skills burn off more/less of that bar on use.  When it's empty, no more "specials", just the basic Synthisys I believe.

A "Durability" counter, which is essentially an allowance for how many Touch (quality increase attempt) or Synthesis (crafting progress to completion) attempts you are allowed.   This counter alters based on item / item-type.  A base mat might only have four moves available, while a Breastplate might have eight.

A Synthesis Progress bar.  If you run out of attempts (durability) without hitting the 100% mark on Synthesis - Fail, all mats lost.

A Quality Progress bar that advances by some amount each time you use a Touch skill.

And an additional dimension I guess, for really six factors:

Your Crafting skill based on crafting level and GEAR.  Two stats are relevant:  Crafting (influences how much the Synthesis Bar advances each time, and Control (influences how much the Quality bar advances each Touch use)

When you begin to craft an item you are essentially looking to advance Quality to 100% with enough "moves" left in Durability to move the Synthesis bar to completion.  If you do that you get a High Quality Proc item, guaranteed.

Obviously many times this isn't the case, and where the challenge to the system shows:  It's a balancing act trying to get a max % number for Quality, with enough moves to complete the production (synthesis).  Depending on your characters base Crafting and Control Ratings you might only have enough umph to get the quality chance to, for instance, 5% on a more difficult item.

Until you ply the entire crafting dynamic and do one or more of several things:  Increase your crafting level, make sure your gear is all up to snuff to optimize Crafting and Control, perhaps add enhancements that up Crafting Points and what have you, or rethink several different combinations of the "special" crafting skills I'm not going to pan through here.  Some of those skills reset your Durability counter (increasing number of moves available - and a big cost to your CP pool), allow you to "pause" to see if you get the quality progression bonus proc (rng), etc.

It's a decent interactive dynamic on two or three levels that does test your ability to juggle/judge factors that affect how many attempts you get in the process, split between how much you can push the Quality % while maintaining enough moves (durability) to complete Synthesis.  With a reasonable incorporation of RNG in my opinion.

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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Just think about Antoine Laurent Lavoisier : nothing is lost nothing is created everything is transformed

You can not find your hands empty just because you're awkward ;)

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I spent a good bit of time last night farming slag to make a 2h mace to test out a rune that required it. Then went through the crafting process. All in about an hour. I got to the last 2 combines. I think 60% chance on each.

I said to myself, "well, lets see if I log off for the night or play for a few more hours."

I managed to not fail, and did indeed play all night, enjoying myself quiet a bit.

No one should ever be faced with that sort of situation though. There are other things you can do instead of the item going 'poof'. Hell, make failures like crafting critical failures. You fail a craft cut the durability in half and remove all previous successful experiments. So fail a final combine and you get a basic slag weapon with no stats.

 

P.S. - I then lost said mace to the spirit bank :-P

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As a decicated crafter, I'd like to throw in my two cents:

 

The success rates seem fine to me. When I started out it was 65% on basicly everything, and sure I got a little salty but hey I was a new guy.

Since then I focused my training on blacksmithing, and just did a little math. From the word go, to the point where you have the skill "Amazing Assemble Success" (which is currently my highest skill influencing the success rate, the only ones missing are "Master Blacksmith" and "Research Mastery") takes 40 days. Just over a month, in a game in which learning a full skill tree takes almost a year (I think I once ran the numbers the full blacksmith tree, with the thrall branch was about 200 days).

With this skill my success rate on almost any component is 97% (some are 95% for whatever reason). Success rates on armor is 98% and Weapons (seemed to have been decreased, remember those sitting at 95 as well) are currently 86%. All those rates are without any potions.

If it took less than this commitment (of 40 days for the crafting chance, and another 18 if you want all the weapon recipes for example). This game would become unattractive to me as a crafter. I, and I think we all, have seen games "play it your way! become a crafter, trader or warrior or whatever you wish to be!" and most all of the time, those games had crafting and trading on the side, but you were always primarily a fighter, because everyone who wanted to could just craft what they needed. Crafting and trading felt never exclusive enough to make them actual desireable play styles.

And if CF would make crafting less exclusive as well, it would make crafting guilds just the ones who get to hawk the most resources, since they would just be fighters (who happen to be able to craft) and not craftsmen.

 

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On 5/18/2017 at 9:28 AM, yoink said:

You fail a craft cut the durability in half and remove all previous successful experiments. So fail a final combine and you get a basic slag weapon with no stats.

I like this idea. To expand on it a little bit: failing a craft is like getting a "0" durability item. Instead of one 15% chance to get that 0 durability item, ACE could make it (for example) 5 separate rolls each with a 15% chance to reduce the item's durability by 20%, stacking. Then it would be extremely rare (0.15^5, less than one in ten thousand) to get a 0% durability item, but 60-80% durability would be common.

Over time this would average out to the same end result: 4x 100% durability swords and 1x complete failure will last you as long as 5x 80% durability swords, for example. The difference is it spreads the failures out - instead of occasionally getting a complete failure, you get more frequent "partial" failures. It would reduce the variance of your results, more consistency and less randomness, without changing the average result. This means less frustration and rage quitting without reducing the value of crafting skill.

Edited by Avloren

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9 hours ago, Sandoval said:

The systeme is fine, the real probleme is what appen when you fail... It can't be all is lost ! :blink: 

I'm sorry I don't see the problem

 

Maybe I am an "elitist" but the problem will solve itself, 40 days in, people who want to be crafters, will have decent success rates.

Sure the first few weeks after launch most people will run around in basic gear till the first people get their skills up.

I just stopped myself, going into my EK with nothing, making a basic hammer, basic pickaxe, farming the materials and making a one handed hammer. Took me a grand total of 21 minutes (with only my natural skills, so no harvesting skills, no harvesting or crafting potions). So even if the 86% chance of making the hammer had failed, I would have lost 21 minutes at most. Far less if I had a skilled harvester around to collect the materials for me.

And that is what will make this a "true" a MMO, people will have to relay on each other, harvesters on fighters to keep them save, crafters on harvesters, trader on crafters and harvesters and so on and so forth.

Everyone has the ability to make themselves basic gear, and above that you need actual crafters. And sure it can sting losing those blue or purple resources but thats part of the fun and the game tells you the chance of that happening.

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26 minutes ago, Amenur said:

I am an "elitist"

Yes you are... :rolleyes:

A game must be fun and the feeling of do all parts again and again when you are a casual crafter must be a little annoying.

Personally, I can survive with this but do not we want an extremely well-done game?

An apprentice blacksmith can make a sword, it's just that it will be much less well balanced and resistant than if his master do it.

Edited by Sandoval
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1 hour ago, Sandoval said:

An apprentice blacksmith can make a sword, it's just that it will be much less well balanced and resistant than if his master do it.

Yes, and that aspect is represented by the experimantion system.

After the 40 days to get the crafting chance up, you are basicly an apprentice. You will at least succeed in making stuff, but it won't be as good as a master that has all the experimentation skills.

And casual crafters have the ability to make basic gear.

1 hour ago, Sandoval said:

Personally, I can survive with this but do not we want an extremely well-done game?

How does this apply?

Sure you can argue that this system might be "less fun" for some people but its also "more fun" for others. Thats enjoyment not quality.

Of course everyone wants the game to be well-done, with all the systems working.

I just think the game would be better as an MMO with not everybody having "instant" access to all the aspects therefore creating a system of co-operation. Filling specific roles, rather than something like ARK in which everyone just gets crafting as a level bonus and everyone is pretty much the same generic dude, with slightly different stats.

*edit: I just gave it some more thought, what if I (as in the real me) just strolled into a real blacksmith work shop and tried to make a sword ... it would probabbly end horrible, with some twisted monstrosity made of steel.... than I thought "well the steel is still there, a proper blacksmith might be able to salvage some of this"

So here's the idea that was born out of this:

There is already a salvage skill, so you could have failed crafts create some item like "Twisted Lump of Metal", you take that to an actual blacksmith, and he than can extract some materials out of it.

This would still give crafters a distinct role and advantage and soften the blow for people who havent infested the time or do not want to.

Edited by Amenur
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1 hour ago, Amenur said:

it would probabbly end horrible, with some twisted monstrosity made of steel.... than I thought "well the steel is still there, a proper blacksmith might be able to salvage some of this"

So here's the idea that was born out of this:

There is already a salvage skill, so you could have failed crafts create some item like "Twisted Lump of Metal", you take that to an actual blacksmith, and he than can extract some materials out of it.

This would still give crafters a distinct role and advantage and soften the blow for people who havent infested the time or do not want to.

That's my point... empty hand is what I don't understand. And get a ridiculous sword in result of my attempt to do a great one, is what I call a funny failure ;)

Edited by Sandoval

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Players will start to feel indignant as they attempt to progress since they have no control over the outcome. I suspect many people view this as an obvious issue with crafting as it is currently implemented, and will become increasingly reserved about investing time into the game now or in the future unless the system's RNG component is acknowledged to be a weakness that will be addressed in the future. 

May I suggest doing something similar to what League of Legends does with critical hit chance, or what Black Desert does with gear upgrades? Include a bias that increments upon successive failures. With this suggestion, even outright failure can be perceived as progress and no complex salvage mechanics or item meta-data need to be implemented. This might also in some way simulate "learning from your mistakes", in case justification from an immersive standpoint is required.

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23 minutes ago, Sandoval said:

That's my point... empty hand is what I don't understand. And get a ridiculous sword in result of my attempt to do a great one, is what I call a funny failure ;)

yes thats why I offered this suggestion as a compromise.

But I truely believe the game should not allow too much crafting to everyone. I want to keep players seperated to force them to work together. As MMO are best when you play WITH other people not just ALONGSIDE them.

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6 hours ago, Sandoval said:

An apprentice blacksmith can make a sword, it's just that it will be much less well balanced and resistant than if his master do it.

Here's the thing...

I actually do some blacksmithing in my spare time.  And you are perfectly correct, an apprentice blacksmith can make a sword.

But an awful lot of the time that a unskilled blacksmith sets out to make a sword, you end up with an unusable piece of crap...

  • Sometimes you lose the blade during the quench
  • Sometimes too much material gets lost during repeated heats
  • Sometimes your weld didn't take and you don't find out till the end

The fact that once and a while, you might be able to make a bad sword doesn't mean that you produce anything useful the rest of the time...

(FWIW, I have custarded up far more knives that I have completed and even my good ones aren't worth bragging about.  However I have al sorts of practical experience spending time producing worthless blades)

 

 

 

Edited by narsille

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12 minutes ago, narsille said:

The fact that once and a while, you might be able to make a bad sword doesn't mean that you produce anything useful the rest of the time...

So, do you think it is realistic to think that sometimes you get a bad sword and sometimes you have only junk ? Or is it that you finish with your materials perfectly unsuitable to be recycled in a world where resources are the sinews of war ?! Your opinion will be law in my case ;)

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3 minutes ago, Sandoval said:

So, do you think it is realistic to think that sometimes you get a bad sword and sometimes you have only junk ? Or is it that you finish with your materials perfectly unsuitable to be recycled in a world where resources are the sinews of war ?! Your opinion will be law in my case ;)

I would guess that there is almost always SOMETHING that could be thrown back into a crucible, melted down, and formed into a new pig.  (By which I mean pig iron).  However, the amount of material that gets lost might be tremendous.

Each time that you heat up a piece of iron, you lose material.

Each time you need to flux a weld, you lose a lot of material.

God help you if you ended up sparking or burning your iron.

The further down the manufacturing chain you go, the more material that you lose.

If I had to guess, I'd say that you're probably going to be able to recover (at most) a third of the metal that you started with.

Note:  This assumes that you're working with metal.  If you custard up making a bow or cutting a stone, the loss could be much much worse...

 

 

 

 

 

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Personally, I think they should make a "failed craft" have bad stats, instead of losing all your material. That way it is better for early-game (which I think failure is the place where failure hurts the most), and makes end-game players still think of it as failure (Noone wants bad gear)

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