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eluidclyde

so tired of failed crafting

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My preocupation is to understand how a geomancer who fails an 8 spares can lose 11500 metal 11500 wood and 11500 stone ... because it seems incredible (not to mention the time invested to get there)

In order to get there it will not have any failure 15x in a row and something like 3450x + 115x to make the primal earth :blink:

Edited by Sandoval
Correction of Calculation

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On 5/14/2017 at 2:30 PM, Dondagora said:

but rather any dynamic in which the player's mechanical or intellectual ability is tested against to alter the results.

I mean it's that way for critical hits (exception being powers that autocrit) but no one has an issue with that.

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1 hour ago, Colest said:

I mean it's that way for critical hits (exception being powers that autocrit) but no one has an issue with that.

Crits are basically an increase in average damage by giving spikes in damage. In theory, it just gives a percentage-based bonus. 1% crit chance for 200% damage is basically a 1% increase in overall damage (theoretically). Of course, there are many factors included in critical hits beyond the RNG, such as landing the attacks, mitigations, blocks and parries, evasions, etc.

 

Even then, critical hits are more of a variable than an end result. The RNG of crafting decides the absolute success or failure of the craft. In combat, crits only alter the possible success/failure by a lesser margin.

 

Thus Crit RNG is a lesser offense than that of crafting RNG.

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2 hours ago, Dondagora said:

Of course, there are many factors included in critical hits beyond the RNG, such as landing the attacks, mitigations, blocks and parries, evasions, etc.

You're gonna list mitigations in your argument that the RNG for crits is within the player's control yet somehow stacking modifiers for crafting success doesn't count for the crafting RNG to be in your control? That's an incredible double standard you've created.

2 hours ago, Dondagora said:

The RNG of crafting decides the absolute success or failure of the craft. In combat, crits only alter the possible success/failure by a lesser margin.

If a crit is the difference between you living or dying then that's determining the success of failure of combat. Likewise there seem to be a precedent for crit-based builds so that's an even bigger effect.

Edited by Colest

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1 minute ago, Colest said:

 

You're gonna list mitigations in your argument that the RNG for crits is within the player's control yet somehow stacking modifiers for crafting success doesn't count for the crafting RNG to be in your control? That's quite a double standard there.

If a crit is the difference between you living or dying then that's determining the success of failure of combat. Likewise there seem to be a precedent for crit-based builds so that's an even bigger effect.

By mitigation, I mean powers that say "cannot be crit when using this" and the like.

Let's put it this way: crits are not the sole cause of death in PvP. How one plays alters the outcome, and victory does not hinge solely on the RNG. We do not rely on RNG to decide who wins. We calculate our average damage of crits and simply consider it a damage boost. If we're to say that stats, and not player action, are the prinary determination of victory, as you are, then is the point of the game if it's all stat-based?

And here is the center of my argument. RNG isn't wholly bad, but players must have some ability to control the end result, or else what's the point? If a crit becomes the difference between you and death, then clearly your choices, or the enemy's, lead to such a situation to be. The RNG was controlled in such a way. One made a wholly obscure situation into a, let's say, 50-50 chance of victory. The odds were manipulated via other variables for the crit's margin of victory to matter so much. Your hypothetical relies entirely on player choices working in just the right way. A fringe case, you might say.

In most cases, a single crit won't be determining whether you die or not. Though, honestly, I'm not really all that against getting rid of crits all together either.

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On 5/22/2017 at 8:41 PM, Dondagora said:

If we're to say that stats, and not player action, are the prinary determination of victory, as you are, then is the point of the game if it's all stat-based?

The devs have thrown out the statistic numerous times of 33.3% gear, 33.3% skills, and 33.3% player skill. That sounds to me like stats outweigh skill two to one by their own admission. I don't see how crafting varies from that.

 

On 5/22/2017 at 8:41 PM, Dondagora said:

RNG isn't wholly bad, but players must have some ability to control the end result, or else what's the point?

The entire point of the vast majority of RNG in MMOs is to take away control from the players, usually for systems mandatory for the larger world to function or to introduction an unpredictability to the game. The point is that you can't count on that those mats you spent to produce that exact item any more than you can count on landing that vital crit. The skill of the player in these situations comes in the form of risk mitigation, which is precisely what ACE wants to be the primary focus of the metagame of Crowfall.

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3 hours ago, Colest said:

The devs have thrown out the statistic numerous times of 33.3% gear, 33.3% skills, and 33.3% player skill. That sounds to me like stats outweigh skill two to one by their own admission. I don't see how crafting varies from that.

 

The entire point of the vast majority of RNG in MMOs is to take away control from the players, usually for systems mandatory for the larger world to function or to introduction an unpredictability to the game. The point is that you can't count on that those mats you spent to produce that exact item any more than you can count on landing that vital crit. The skill of the player in these situations comes in the form of risk mitigation, which is precisely what ACE wants to be the primary focus of the metagame of Crowfall.

Crafting varies from it because there is 0% player skill involved. The player has no part in the crafting process at all. The player's own abilities make no difference to the end result whatsoever. You're confusing the player's decision to craft at all with some mitigation of risk because of the choice to not craft. RNG is to make the game unpredictable, yes, but players should still be capable of navigating the RNG and be capable of altering their chances of survival based on their own skills and metagame. However no metagame exists in crafting. If a NPC, just some bot, were to engage with this crafting process, the end results would be about the same as if a player were to. That's just sad, to know that any work you do in crafting can be so easily replicated by a bot.

A crafting minigame is necessary to give crafting some player-element rather than be purely, and entirely, stat-based and RNG-centric.

Edited by Dondagora

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On 5/14/2017 at 11:13 AM, BarriaKarl said:

Lets get this back on track.

The problem with crafting is:

  • The high failure rate? This seems to be OP problem. And a bug.
  • The fact that you lose everything when failing? This is for the "You got nothing!".gif guy.
  • Lack of any control in the process . Courtesy of Dondagora.

They are not the same. Pick one. If you have another problem just say so and i will add.

I think you missed, that as designed, without meaningful choice in the risk stage, it is classic punishment conditioning and has negative psychological training implications.  

I've said it soo many times, I'm surprised it didn't make the list.

All it takes, and all I want is pretty simple, and is in line with Dondagora bullet.

If you mix the same quality of materials and don't bootstrap into better, you can effectively eliminate risk.  For white, that risk is gone immediately, no significant training required. For higher materials and difficult mixes, training can reduce or remove greater than 95% of it.

Then, to avoid risk (and punishment), you now have the choice of material combinations.

A choice.

There already is a place to tinker with the chance of success of final items, experimentation.  That's where the main chance to fail should lie.

 

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As the dev mentioned though, part of the pain that people are feeling now is coming from crafting things they don't have the skill for yet and other planned systems are not yet implemented yet correct?

So as it currently stands I can see a recipe for an advanced staff even though I don't quite have the required skills to craft it. Even if all my materials are common materials there is still a high chance that it could fail. Most games hide this increased difficulty to craft behind a skill point based system where if you have X points into the system you have 100% to craft it but if you have anything less then it just doesn't show up at all. With the crowfall system though I still have the choice to try and craft it even if the failure is all but guaranteed.

So there are a number of choices I can make regarding the crafting of my staff:

  1. Do I accept the risk of failure (due to my lack of skills required to mitigate failure)
  2. Do I have someone more experienced craft it for me?
  3. Do I just buy the item?

That's just for that specific staff. If I want to consider crafting as a whole then I have some additional choices:

  1. Do I focus on crafting skills?
  2. Do I focus on gathering skills?
  3. Do I focus on combat skills?

So from the start there are choices to be made and those choices have consequences for me. If I'm going to focus on combat then I need to accept that I'm not going to be able to craft some of the more complex items and will need to rely on others to help me. This actually encourages the formation of communities and guilds as they will need people who do both. 

Does the system need improvements? Probably. For the moment though I think it's a bit early to say its going to fail or is broken completely. It sounds to me that things like blueprints, factories, and other systems they have planned will mitigate the risk further or at least make it such that the cost of failed attempt is less of an issue. If what takes us 3 hours to craft now, ends up only taking us 30 minutes after these other systems are implemented is a failure still as painful?

One last note is that communication is important here. Either the community or developers themselves are going to have to put something together that explains the crafting system as a whole and how it is expected to work. Of course new players coming in are going to complain about a 65% chance of success to craft something that took them 3 hours to get all the materials for because they don't know how the system is intended to work as a whole. Yes it's possible solo craft somethings but in the end the system is designed to be done as a group activity with people specializing in different aspects of the production chain further mitigating the risk.

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here's my experience: I used pots to have decent craft and harvesting skills.

It took me around 40min to gather and another 10 min to build all the pieces. Then on the final assembly for my weapon I failed (70% success) and lost an hour of game time.

This is unacceptable and frustrating.

I was streaming at that time and I just turned off like ''ok, I'm done for today, this game suck''

The system should be redone, and instead of failure have a low chance of great success (extra bonus). Or failure would only affect the rarity of my weapon, like having a 70/30 chances of white/green.

Losing a whole hour feels completely arbitrary and unfair.

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48 minutes ago, Gaulwa said:

here's my experience: I used pots to have decent craft and harvesting skills.

It took me around 40min to gather and another 10 min to build all the pieces. Then on the final assembly for my weapon I failed (70% success) and lost an hour of game time.

This is unacceptable and frustrating.

I was streaming at that time and I just turned off like ''ok, I'm done for today, this game suck''

The system should be redone, and instead of failure have a low chance of great success (extra bonus). Or failure would only affect the rarity of my weapon, like having a 70/30 chances of white/green.

Losing a whole hour feels completely arbitrary and unfair.

That was kind of funny to watch, but then it wasn't my hour of lost time :)

 

Personally i like the failed chance or "RNG" I think maybe a way to combat this may be to increase the drop amount of mats from each node which would decrease the amount of time it takes to gather the needed materials.. I feel like if everyone had a 100% chance of success, crafted gear would lose its allure. 

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5 hours ago, Ashtar said:

That was kind of funny to watch, but then it wasn't my hour of lost time :)

 

Personally i like the failed chance or "RNG" I think maybe a way to combat this may be to increase the drop amount of mats from each node which would decrease the amount of time it takes to gather the needed materials.. I feel like if everyone had a 100% chance of success, crafted gear would lose its allure. 

 

I wouldn't have minded if the final weapon had a penalty, or goes to a lower grade. But everything gone on the final assembly... what happened? He was supposed to assemble the shaft, the head and the hilt. How can you destroy all 3 pieces altogether? :D

Maybe if you fail you should lose one piece but not all 3.

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Waiiiit...you and your guild failed making ONE sword over 30 times without success? WITH pots running? I find that incredibly hard to believe...i don't disagree with OP but, that's a lot of times to fail. Like, even with pots running i think the final combine percent is like 85%. 

I've failed twice in a row on final combines twice and that was pretty demoralizing but i just find it really impressive that your guild failed 30 times.....

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The last few months have seen a bunch of bitching and moaning about crafting failures.  From my perspective, this is pretty ill informed and represents a poorly understood view of how crafting will actually work in the game.  More specifically, these complaints

  1. Confuse the “one off” crafting that currently exists with the mass production based factory system that will dominate the actual campaign worlds
  2. Confuse the “experimentation game” with the production game

Suppose that I am trained crafter producing widgets.  My crafting rate is such that I have a 93% chance of a success on final assembly and I have a 7% chance of failure.  If I am making widgts on a “one off” basis I might actually notice failure and get a little disgruntled if one of them fails.  However, this isn’t the way in which the game will be played.

Consider what happens when I am using a factory with a production run of 1,000 widgets at a time.

  • On average, I am going to have 930 “successes” and 70 failures
  • The standard deviation is ~8.1
  • Roughly 68% of the time, I’ll have somewhere between 922 and 937 successes.  Roughly 95% of the time, I’ll have somewhere between 924 and 945 successes.

Once we’re in the realm of large scale production, there’s not any real difference between a production system in which

  1. I have 93% success rate and the raw materials cost for a widget is X
  2. I have a 100% success rate and the raw material cost for a widget is 1.075 * X

Once and a while you’ll do a little better, once and while you’ll do a bit worse.  Personally, I can't see getting worked up about it.

With this said and done, there is another part of crafting in which success rates matter enormously:  Creating the blueprints that are used for the production system proper.  This process is pretty closely approximated by the one off crafting that we’re currently using.

Here, I’d like to contrast two different crafting models.  The first has no variance what’s so ever.  Every time that a crafter with skill level “foo” produces a widget, that widget with have quality “bar”.  The second crafting model is stochastic.  If you produce a widget, the resulting attributes will be governed by some probability density function.

I’d argue that the first crafting model neuters the role of the crafter.  Once in a blue moon, the crafter produces a new blueprint.  The rest of the time, he is doing passive training to improve his skills.  How exciting…

In contrast, if we have a crafting model with successes (and therefore non-success or “failures”), then there is something of a role for crafting.  Lots of crafters will stop when they produce an item that is “good enough”.  The great crafters, the crafters of renown, are the ones who have a patience to experiment over and over again trying to craft that one “perfect” item. 

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3 hours ago, narsille said:

The last few months have seen a bunch of bitching and moaning about crafting failures.  From my perspective, this is pretty ill informed and represents a poorly understood view of how crafting will actually work in the game.  More specifically, these complaints

  1. Confuse the “one off” crafting that currently exists with the mass production based factory system that will dominate the actual campaign worlds
  2. Confuse the “experimentation game” with the production game

Suppose that I am trained crafter producing widgets.  My crafting rate is such that I have a 93% chance of a success on final assembly and I have a 7% chance of failure.  If I am making widgts on a “one off” basis I might actually notice failure and get a little disgruntled if one of them fails.  However, this isn’t the way in which the game will be played.

Consider what happens when I am using a factory with a production run of 1,000 widgets at a time.

  • On average, I am going to have 930 “successes” and 70 failures
  • The standard deviation is ~8.1
  • Roughly 68% of the time, I’ll have somewhere between 922 and 937 successes.  Roughly 95% of the time, I’ll have somewhere between 924 and 945 successes.

Once we’re in the realm of large scale production, there’s not any real difference between a production system in which

  1. I have 93% success rate and the raw materials cost for a widget is X
  2. I have a 100% success rate and the raw material cost for a widget is 1.075 * X

Once and a while you’ll do a little better, once and while you’ll do a bit worse.  Personally, I can't see getting worked up about it.

With this said and done, there is another part of crafting in which success rates matter enormously:  Creating the blueprints that are used for the production system proper.  This process is pretty closely approximated by the one off crafting that we’re currently using.

Here, I’d like to contrast two different crafting models.  The first has no variance what’s so ever.  Every time that a crafter with skill level “foo” produces a widget, that widget with have quality “bar”.  The second crafting model is stochastic.  If you produce a widget, the resulting attributes will be governed by some probability density function.

I’d argue that the first crafting model neuters the role of the crafter.  Once in a blue moon, the crafter produces a new blueprint.  The rest of the time, he is doing passive training to improve his skills.  How exciting…

In contrast, if we have a crafting model with successes (and therefore non-success or “failures”), then there is something of a role for crafting.  Lots of crafters will stop when they produce an item that is “good enough”.  The great crafters, the crafters of renown, are the ones who have a patience to experiment over and over again trying to craft that one “perfect” item. 

Thanks for proving my point, that it's a mathematically pointless mechanic to keep in.

Given the punishment conditioning experience damage it does to players, the negative strongly outweighs any perceived good it does.

 

Did you watch the this thread?  One item (a parcel) with I believe 17 hours of harvesting and crafting at stake, to a single RNG roll.

That's like betting your entire weeks salary on a single cut of the deck.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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3 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Thanks for proving my point, that it's a mathematically pointless mechanic to keep in.

Given the punishment conditioning experience damage it does to players, the negative strongly outweighs any perceived good it does.

There were two parts to the post that you are responding to

  1. The first noted that there is an equivalence in the production game
  2. The second noted that variance is necessary to make the experimentation game interesting

You are focusing on half the argument while ignoring the rest

 

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Twobears said:

There were two parts to the post that you are responding to

  1. The first noted that there is an equivalence in the production game
  2. The second noted that variance is necessary to make the experimentation game interesting

You are focusing on half the argument while ignoring the rest

 

There is already far more variance in the experimentation phase.  There is also the bootstrapping mechanic that already provides variance before that phase.

Crafting does not require the specific variance of total resource loss without choice of risk level in order to variance exist in crafting.

Perhaps going through the body of the thread on the issue before you call me out for ignoring something would be a good idea.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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4 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Did you watch the this thread?  One item (a parcel) with I believe 17 hours of harvesting and crafting at stake, to a single RNG roll.

That's like betting your entire weeks salary on a single cut of the deck.

If you can't afford the stakes, then you shouldn't play the game.  (Or, in this case, if you don't have enough resources to handle an occasional loss, then you shouldn't be crafting the good in question).

In all seriousness, if you want to get your hands on some kind of parcel and you can't affording the variance in a crafting result, then buy a finished parcel from crafter.  I'm sure that there will be some kind of mark-up, but you should be possible to purchase a finished parcel none-the-less.

The only real problem would appear to be the case in which you want to experiment crafting items where you can't really afford the loss conditions...

Edited by Twobears

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7 minutes ago, Twobears said:

If you can't afford the stakes, then you shouldn't play the game.  (Or, in this case, if you don't have enough resources to handle an occasional loss, then you shouldn't be crafting the good in question).

In all seriousness, if you want to get your hands on some kind of parcel and you can't affording the variance in a crafting result, then buy a finished parcel from crafter.  I'm sure that there will be some kind of mark-up, but you should be possible to purchase a finished parcel none-the-less.

In all honesty, the only real problem would appear to be the case in which you want to experiment crafting items where you can't really afford the loss conditions...

Two posts in, and already on my ignore list, amazing.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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