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eluidclyde

so tired of failed crafting

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4 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

There is already far more variance in the experimentation phase.  There is also the bootstrapping mechanic that already provides variance before that phase.

Crafting does not require the specific variance of total resource loss without choice of risk level in order to variance exist in crafting.

Perhaps going through the body of the thread on the issue before you call me out for ignoring something would be a good idea.

I've read the entire thread in detail.  Thanks for the suggestion, though.  With this said and done, you did clearly ignore half of the original post in your response.

With respect to you comment about total resource loss, I can't understand why you are so fixated on the notion of a "loss" / "failure".

We've already seen statements from the developers that they will be adding functionality to recover partial resources when a crafting attempt fails. (I suspect that folks will need to train in this, but I believe that it will be added)

The entire concept of a "failure" is completely subjective.  I throw away a third of the tools that I make because its not worth my time to go off an harvest with them.

  • Is that a failure?  I don't end up with a tool that I can use...
  • Is that a success?  The screen didn't label my crafting attempt a failure...

At the end of the the day, crafting is game of percentages.  And, just like any other form of gambling or insurance, the ones who are going to do well are the ones who are able to play dispassionately. 

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32 minutes ago, Twobears said:

I've read the entire thread in detail.  Thanks for the suggestion, though.  With this said and done, you did clearly ignore half of the original post in your response.

With respect to you comment about total resource loss, I can't understand why you are so fixated on the notion of a "loss" / "failure".

We've already seen statements from the developers that they will be adding functionality to recover partial resources when a crafting attempt fails. (I suspect that folks will need to train in this, but I believe that it will be added)

The entire concept of a "failure" is completely subjective.  I throw away a third of the tools that I make because its not worth my time to go off an harvest with them.

  • Is that a failure?  I don't end up with a tool that I can use...
  • Is that a success?  The screen didn't label my crafting attempt a failure...

At the end of the the day, crafting is game of percentages.  And, just like any other form of gambling or insurance, the ones who are going to do well are the ones who are able to play dispassionately. 

Because I have professionally studied the impact of operant conditioning punishment on player response and its psychological impact in and after game play, when I worked in the gambling industry.

This implementation is entirely negative, specifically the crafting failure/loss portion, and causes literal psychological damage to players. 

That's why.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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I think I have failed something like 3 combines (excluding potions) in as many months.  I am not worried about failing at all. It happens so infrequently that I am in no way psychologically damaged (from crafting, but some of my life choices on the other hand...).

Now the original Take Bug... I am still recovering from those poorly made socks.

Edited by destrin

"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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1 minute ago, Tinnis said:

when i made all 100 runestones to screenshot their tooltips - with 97 success chance - only one failed

Tell me how that makes you feel?


"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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1 minute ago, destrin said:

Tell me how that makes you feel?

like the maths worked?

who else wanted that 8h+ parcel craft to fall though....*epic rage quit video*


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Just now, Tinnis said:

like the maths worked?

No... did you feel upset when you failed? Did you cry for hours? Did you think about hurting yourself?  Did you lose your life savings in a single craft? I am honestly concerned for your mental health that you failed 1 craft out of 100.

2 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

who else wanted that 8h+ parcel craft to fall though....*epic rage quit video*

Part of me was expecting it to fail, part of me wanted to see if it was in game yet. @anhrezcf is a crafting beast I am sure he would have brushed it off and tried again if it ended up failing:P


"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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2 minutes ago, destrin said:

No... did you feel upset when you failed? Did you cry for hours? Did you think about hurting yourself?  Did you lose your life savings in a single craft? I am honestly concerned for your mental health that you failed 1 craft out of 100.

Part of me was expecting it to fail, part of me wanted to see if it was in game yet. @anhrezcf is a crafting beast I am sure he would have brushed it off and tried again if it ended up failing:P

In creating the first parcel I needed 1100 wood 1050 stone and 1000 ore (no failure in the ore?) to create the 10 Earth ... its the big final combine that always worries me. Will Salvaging address some of this? maybe  ... what do you get back in a fail when you are crafting 2 4 space parcels into a Capital parcel? the parcels are worth 225 each ... so I could be failing 450 dollars ... what do I get back? 


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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2 minutes ago, anhrezcf said:

In creating the first parcel I needed 1100 wood 1050 stone and 1000 ore (no failure in the ore?) to create the 10 Earth ... its the big final combine that always worries me. Will Salvaging address some of this? maybe  ... what do you get back in a fail when you are crafting 2 4 space parcels into a Capital parcel? the parcels are worth 225 each ... so I could be failing 450 dollars ... what do I get back? 

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34 minutes ago, destrin said:

I think I have failed something like 3 combines (excluding potions) in as many months.  I am not worried about failing at all. It happens so infrequently that I am in no way psychologically damaged.

Now the original Take Bug... I am still recovering from those poorly made socks.

To be fair, I have noticed a marked reduction in combine fails this last week. I still get them, but perhaps they did something inadvertently to fix the RNG.

After a certain point, the punishment conditioning is no longer perceived the same way. If the period of punishment is reduced enough that the punishment event is no longer associated with the behavior, or the punishment is light enough to be insignificant compared to the potential positive results. A 5$ speeding ticket is more annoying than punishing, and will certainly not influence behavior. The same would be the case of a failure to craft a single bar, verses a failure on a final combine on an otherwise perfect weapon.

The problem is, the mechanic as designed punishes the new or less experienced crafter more than the experienced. Players who have established crafting habits, regular supply of materials to work with, and have experienced all sorts of positive reinforcement from successful crafts and bootstraps, will have enough positive reinforcement to establish a loss tolerance, while new crafters who experience early losses will simply avoid the process, and possibly the game.

A direct comparison would be the difference in experience a player going to a casino has. If that player is obligated to put all their money on a single number bet the first time they go to the roulette and lose, they will simply hate gambling and never want to do it again.  If however they are allowed to spread their money out over the course of several hours, experiencing both winning and losing events, the design of the games, and careful management of the losing experience, will make them feel like they were at least winning at some point.

Crafting failure hurts new players trying it out for the first time, or those risking a great deal of time and effort in a single attempt.

Which gets me back to my 1st page suggestion for fixing it.  If the rule was that if you combine all the same quality materials, your chances of failure should be zero on white, and marginal on greater.

This gives the new players a choice and chance to experience success without punishment, so when they finally progress to higher risk on higher materials, they have already built up a tolerance to some losses and developed positive feelings for the experience, and they can "blame themselves" when they risk bootstrapping and trying to take a chance at a better outcome.

Making players feel like they had a choice on the level of risk they took, is all that it takes to remove the damage, because they have a reasonable outlet for performing the action, that also avoids the punishment.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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This may be my personal opinion, but I still feel like the player should have some semblance of control in the success rate.

 

Based on the Final Fantasy system previously posted, I've come up with this system I find to be ideal:

Dondagora's Ideal Crafting System

Upon entering the crafting screen, you are given a Crafting Power Bar. This has a few base abilities for everybody, but certain Disciplines add more powers.

You are also provided 20 experimentation points, or just points for short. You can place points into certain stats or abilities using the powers on your Crafting Bar.

There are a few base statistics which everyone has powers to modify [this example is specifically for weapons, but can be modified for other crafts]:

  • Success: Modifies the chance for the craft to succeed. Depends on materials, skill level, and points put in. Putting points in for a better success rate means you have less points to upgrade the item itself.
  • Durability: Modifies the durability. While your crafts lose out on some useful stats, they last longer, which can be useful in resource-scarce campaigns.
  • Minimum Attack: Improving the minimum damage the weapon can do will bring its reliability up in that you get more consistent damage.
  • Maximum Attack: Brings up the maximum damage the weapon can do, but also widens the range of damage, making its performance inconsistent.
  • Material-Based Stat(s): This is a stat specific to the resources used. Perhaps you used something that gives you a flat increase in damage done, or perhaps giving your weapon life-steal and putting points in here will increase amount stolen. Depending on the craft, you can have multiple Material-Based Stats.
  • Discipline-Based Stat(s): This is a stat provided by the crafter's Discipline. Perhaps he has the "Heat Smith" Discipline, letting him add Fire Damage attribute to the weapon, or a "Anti-Magic Specialist" which enchants the weapon with an anti-Barrier attribute. Depending on the crafter, you can have multiple Discipline-Based Stats.

Crafting Disciplines will likely also have a stat attached along the lines of "+5 Experimentation Points", like how certain Disciplines can give +20 Perception or +10 Range. This means that hybrid crafters who take a crafting and combat Major Discipline will have 25 points rather than the standard 20 to modify crafts with. Dedicated crafters, who fill two Major Disciplines with Crafting Disciplines, will have 30 points.

One's tiers on the Crafting Skill Tree will increase what they gain per point from specific statistics. For instance, by putting points into "Edgy Weapons" in the Sword-Smith Skill Tree, the Crafter can increase the amount of Maximum Damage per point they put in. Or, I could go for a specific resource, like Iron, and focus skills around getting more out of the Material-Based Stat of Iron. 

A central part of this, however, is that Success is a stat. That, by modifying your success rate, you can craft something more reliably or consistently at the cost of other stats. And, should a person fail a craft, they will not experience the negativity of the RNGod telling them "YOU SHALL NOT PASS", but rather will understand that they had taken a risk by not investing more in Success. It is still RNG, but controlled by the player to some extent.

And, to be clear, my problem is not the RNG itself, but the lack of any real choice-based control in the matter.

Thoughts?

Edited by Dondagora

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18 minutes ago, Dondagora said:

This may be my personal opinion, but I still feel like the player should have some semblance of control in the success rate.

 

Based on the Final Fantasy system previously posted, I've come up with this system I find to be ideal:

Dondagora's Ideal Crafting System

Upon entering the crafting screen, you are given a Crafting Power Bar. This has a few base abilities for everybody, but certain Disciplines add more powers.

You are also provided 20 experimentation points, or just points for short. You can place points into certain stats or abilities using the powers on your Crafting Bar.

There are a few base statistics which everyone has powers to modify [this example is specifically for weapons, but can be modified for other crafts]:

  • Success: Modifies the chance for the craft to succeed. Depends on materials, skill level, and points put in. Putting points in for a better success rate means you have less points to upgrade the item itself.
  • Durability: Modifies the durability. While your crafts lose out on some useful stats, they last longer, which can be useful in resource-scarce campaigns.
  • Minimum Attack: Improving the minimum damage the weapon can do will bring its reliability up in that you get more consistent damage.
  • Maximum Attack: Brings up the maximum damage the weapon can do, but also widens the range of damage, making its performance inconsistent.
  • Material-Based Stat(s): This is a stat specific to the resources used. Perhaps you used something that gives you a flat increase in damage done, or perhaps giving your weapon life-steal and putting points in here will increase amount stolen. Depending on the craft, you can have multiple Material-Based Stats.
  • Discipline-Based Stat(s): This is a stat provided by the crafter's Discipline. Perhaps he has the "Heat Smith" Discipline, letting him add Fire Damage attribute to the weapon, or a "Anti-Magic Specialist" which enchants the weapon with an anti-Barrier attribute. Depending on the crafter, you can have multiple Discipline-Based Stats.

Crafting Disciplines will likely also have a stat attached along the lines of "+5 Experimentation Points", like how certain Disciplines can give +20 Perception or +10 Range. This means that hybrid crafters who take a crafting and combat Major Discipline will have 25 points rather than the standard 20 to modify crafts with. Dedicated crafters, who fill two Major Disciplines with Crafting Disciplines, will have 30 points.

One's tiers on the Crafting Skill Tree will increase what they gain per point from specific statistics. For instance, by putting points into "Edgy Weapons" in the Sword-Smith Skill Tree, the Crafter can increase the amount of Maximum Damage per point they put in. Or, I could go for a specific resource, like Iron, and focus skills around getting more out of the Material-Based Stat of Iron. 

A central part of this, however, is that Success is a stat. That, by modifying your success rate, you can craft something more reliably or consistently at the cost of other stats. And, should a person fail a craft, they will not experience the negativity of the RNGod telling them "YOU SHALL NOT PASS", but rather will understand that they had taken a risk by not investing more in Success. It is still RNG, but controlled by the player to some extent.

And, to be clear, my problem is not the RNG itself, but the lack of any real choice-based control in the matter.

Thoughts?

Simply adding the bolded portion to the pre-combine would cover it for me. 

If for every pip spent you increase the chance of combine success by 5-10%, but then lost the ability to use that pip in the experimentation phase, that would fix the combine problem nicely.

If you let high skilled crafters boost that value above 100%, and use that improvement to improve bootstrap possibility, and also use that to allow them to reduce the experimentation pips available to the maximum for the material type, and then "risk" 100% in experimentation to get the bonus.

With default starting Pips being able to push the success stat for white up to 100%, at the expense of zero or less experimentation, it solves the early game, total resource loss without choice failure problem. 

It's a well thought out solution, I like it. I think it's better than the one I suggested about the material quality type.

Hard to say which would be easier to shoehorn into the behind the scenes model however.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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21 minutes ago, Dondagora said:

This may be my personal opinion, but I still feel like the player should have some semblance of control in the success rate.

A central part of this, however, is that Success is a stat. That, by modifying your success rate, you can craft something more reliably or consistently at the cost of other stats. And, should a person fail a craft, they will not experience the negativity of the RNGod telling them "YOU SHALL NOT PASS", but rather will understand that they had taken a risk by not investing more in Success. It is still RNG, but controlled by the player to some extent.

And, to be clear, my problem is not the RNG itself, but the lack of any real choice-based control in the matter.

Thoughts?

As I recall, there is an inverse relationship between the number of pips that you spend and crafting success.

If you want to increase your chance of successfully crafting something, can't you just spend less pips?

And isn't this want you're asking for?

 

Edited by Twobears

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16 minutes ago, Twobears said:

As I recall, there is an inverse relationship between the number of pips that you spend and crafting success.

If you want to increase your chance of successfully crafting something, can't you just spend less pips?

And isn't this want you're asking for?

 

I find it a matter of psychology. Refraining from doing something is not seen as beneficial or rewarding. By placing points into Success, the player is making a choice for reliability, not a fearful restraint to settle for lesser equipment. In this way, it makes the choice more active for the player [Success or Stats?] rather than a linear line of thinking [How far can I push the stats?]. Simply put, it splits the decision-making process into two acceptable and reasonable choices in comparison to a single choice of do or do not.

While I get that it is just a matter of perception, it alters the emotions involved in crafting. As Krakken says, the current iteration is fairly negative and punishment oriented where you can only blame the game. This is meant to alleviate and redirect such feelings into viewing crafting to be player-centric rather than game-centric results.

Edit: To add a bit, it's the difference between the dissatisfaction felt by having leftover experimentation points and feeling as though you are crafting something less-than, and having no points left and feeling "I did all I could and all I wanted to". Or, having no points left yet failing after pushing all the stats up and feeling that the game made you fail, compared to the feelings in failing because you decided to forgo safety and can't really blame anyone but yourself when you fail. First one is typically game-centric and leads to negative emotions being associated with crafting, while the second is player-centric and provides a feeling of control and decision-making in the crafting process.

Edited by Dondagora

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41 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

The problem is, the mechanic as designed punishes the new or less experienced crafter more than the experienced. Players who have established crafting habits, regular supply of materials to work with, and have experienced all sorts of positive reinforcement from successful crafts and bootstraps, will have enough positive reinforcement to establish a loss tolerance, while new crafters who experience early losses will simply avoid the process, and possibly the game.

I think (and hope) this will be less of an issue for new players when we are restricted in the recipes we have access to with no training.  When a new player buys CF looking to go head first in to crafting they will only be presented with the most simple and easy to craft options when they first log in.  Chances are they will have some fails, and I hope ACE tunes these first recipes so that the experience is enjoyable and their products have a use.  After some training, if they rushed the recipes rather than Crafting Success they will probably run in to issues with more fails. I think my biggest concern is that a brand spanking new crafter will be pumping out crap for the first 2-3 months of their game experience and will be turned off cause the people that have been playing longer get better RNG.

Failure should be apart of the crafting experience.  Experienced trained crafters should be coveted, and I agree we shouldn't crap on new players who want to have FUN in their chosen play style.  Once people get over the hump and when people start putting out training guides and when we get rid of these potions that give us a false sense of the progression system, and when they implement Phase II then Phase III of the crafting system I think we will have a much better idea of where the whole system will end up.

1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

A direct comparison would be the difference in experience a player going to a casino has. If that player is obligated to put all their money on a single number bet the first time they go to the roulette and lose, they will simply hate gambling and never want to do it again.  If however they are allowed to spread their money out over the course of several hours, experiencing both winning and losing events, the design of the games, and careful management of the losing experience, will make them feel like they were at least winning at some point.

My personal experience with casinos (I have only been to one once.. so it is limited) is walk in the door, drop $20 and walk out $400 richer about 10 minutes later never to return. Even though my experience was positive and enjoyable I have never gone back to a casino. When time and time again I have poorly made socksy video gaming experiences and return to gaming for more.


"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

YouTube Channel

 

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2 minutes ago, destrin said:

I think (and hope) this will be less of an issue for new players when we are restricted in the recipes we have access to with no training.  When a new player buys CF looking to go head first in to crafting they will only be presented with the most simple and easy to craft options when they first log in.  Chances are they will have some fails, and I hope ACE tunes these first recipes so that the experience is enjoyable and their products have a use.  After some training, if they rushed the recipes rather than Crafting Success they will probably run in to issues with more fails. I think my biggest concern is that a brand spanking new crafter will be pumping out crap for the first 2-3 months of their game experience and will be turned off cause the people that have been playing longer get better RNG.

Failure should be apart of the crafting experience.  Experienced trained crafters should be coveted, and I agree we shouldn't crap on new players who want to have FUN in their chosen play style.  Once people get over the hump and when people start putting out training guides and when we get rid of these potions that give us a false sense of the progression system, and when they implement Phase II then Phase III of the crafting system I think we will have a much better idea of where the whole system will end up.

My personal experience with casinos (I have only been to one once.. so it is limited) is walk in the door, drop $20 and walk out $400 richer about 10 minutes later never to return. Even though my experience was positive and enjoyable I have never gone back to a casino. When time and time again I have poorly made socksy video gaming experiences and return to gaming for more.

Failure does not need to equal total loss.

It would even be better, as in probably good enough, if the spot in the RNG for total crafting failure, turned your item grey, the quality below white hardly anybody see's, no matter what the source material quality was, and only left you with 2 pip slots per row.

For new players on white, it's not a huge loss. For items that quality doesn't matter, like pots, no big deal. But if you were crafting purple armor, ouch. 

It's the complete loss of all effort and materials for new players that really gets under my skin.

That approach to Casinos is the best one. It's when you keep playing that the conditioning magic can work.

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5 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

It would even be better, as in probably good enough, if the spot in the RNG for total crafting failure, turned your item grey, the quality below white hardly anybody see's, no matter what the source material quality was, and only left you with 2 pip slots per row.

Yuck... I don't know which is worse. Losing the mats completely, or having to salvage a shiet crafted item for shiet mats :P


"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

YouTube Channel

 

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3 minutes ago, destrin said:

Yuck... I don't know which is worse. Losing the mats completely, or having to salvage a shiet crafted item for shiet mats :P

The guy trying to build his first white won't salvage. He will equip the grey and marvel at it's better than basic gear goodness, and go in the field to try to build a better one next time.

For the high end crafter who doesn't want to even salvage, there is always the "Abort" button.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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31 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

The guy trying to build his first white won't salvage. He will equip the grey and marvel at it's better than basic gear goodness, and go in the field to try to build a better one next time.

For the high end crafter who doesn't want to even salvage, there is always the "Abort" button.

I think this is an important point that us veterans can easily overlook.

The Day 1 Noob experience probably contributes more to the long-term success of the game than the Day 300 UberCrafter experience. You'll quickly run out of ubercrafters if the new crafters fail their first tough craft on Day 1, say "custard this poorly made socksy game," and never even make it to Day 2.

I think the current system will be fine for experienced crafters. They'll have friends helping them stock up on enough materials for several crafts, they'll make several attempts trying for the perfect blueprint (not really caring if it fails to combine, that's no worse than a bad experimental roll), and then stick the best result in a factory to make 100 copies for the guild.

It will not be fine for a wide-eyed noob who just spent hours gathering (and getting ganked and dying, and persevering) to finally make his first ever non-basic sword, and then he failed the last step with no way within his control to avoid that.

I love an idea mentioned earlier: let us spend experimental pips to increase our success chance. This will neatly solve the noob crafter's problems, while having no effect on the experienced crafters trying for the perfect blueprint. The other idea about failures turning into grey quality works equally well.

Edited by Avloren
grammar and spelling is hard

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