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Ready, aim, fire - Official discussion thread

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41 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

Words like xenophobia while aplicable shouldnt be how we look at this. Elves arent narcissist a-holes who just want to kill humans because they think they are the chosen race, 

We aren't? News to me. Just call me Elf Hitler.

Edited by soulein

Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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1 hour ago, RKNM said:

Saw CF as more of a contender to break the status quo when it came to gaming and fantasy cliches. Plus if we're looking to marry gameplay and lore, frankly it makes more sense for the races to find conflict along economic and territorial lines, and even religious and faction lines, instead of xenophobia and racism, as these are the same people you'll be trading with, asking to craft from, allying with in game, and whose thralls you'll be enlisting to survive an apocalypse.

I think a game just feels so much more coherent and cohesive if gameplay and lore are married. I know most people don't care and won't even read the lore. But I mean, I agree with you. The main source of conflict in Crowfall's lore should be economical and ideological first, not religious as it is in the lore atm, or racial as today's teaser points at. I mean, someone in this thread (I think it was Regulus) already said this: why would Crows carry on racial prejudice into their immortal, immaterial new existence? Bodies become transient to them, they transcended race, it makes very little sense that Crows would continue an elf-human feud. Likewise, the whole Dragon Throne war is described as the game's central conflict in the lore, but it seems to have very little to do with what players will be doing in certain world bands (and even in bands where god/faction matter, crows can change loyalty every campaign). At the very least the Gods-Crow relationship should be explored a little more, or even reimagined, to fit what will be happening gameplay wise. 


 

 

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I'm really surprised by the amount of people thinking the big reveal is about opening race-class combos. I"m willing to bet big bucks that it is not that. For many reasons.

1) The game design and what they have communicated so far is not supporting this.

2) It would would be a major development strain with minimal gains for players.

* A lot to balance. There is going to be a a percived best combo and most players will go for it. Once there is a balance pass this may change and there will be huge uproar.

* A lot of art assets to create.

3) it's nothing massive. It's what all your WoW-copies do. This game seems to want to create something fresh and spend the effort on it.

4) The design team has limited budget, but they seem to have clear vision for the game and how to spend the nickels effectively. They seem to be clever guys with a  a good understanding about MMOs. Race-class is not something fitting to this. And as said, they are expensive to do and againts the current plans.

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2 hours ago, Aldahen said:

I'm really surprised by the amount of people thinking the big reveal is about opening race-class combos. I"m willing to bet big bucks that it is not that. For many reasons.

1) The game design and what they have communicated so far is not supporting this.

2) It would would be a major development strain with minimal gains for players.

* A lot to balance. There is going to be a a percived best combo and most players will go for it. Once there is a balance pass this may change and there will be huge uproar.

* A lot of art assets to create.

3) it's nothing massive. It's what all your WoW-copies do. This game seems to want to create something fresh and spend the effort on it.

4) The design team has limited budget, but they seem to have clear vision for the game and how to spend the nickels effectively. They seem to be clever guys with a  a good understanding about MMOs. Race-class is not something fitting to this. And as said, they are expensive to do and againts the current plans.

1.  The reveal says it is something we won't believe. 

2.  It would not be minimal gain, it would make the game much more like an mmorpg and less like a moba, amongst other things depending how they implement it (for example racial bonuses could end up being another layer of character building that matters).

*They are adding a ton of disciplines anyway, and they aren't that worried about finding perfect balance.

*Adding a ton of disciplines anyway, maybe the art assets is something they've become more efficient at doing.

3.  It's what traditional mmorpgs often did, and people like options and more layers to character building.

4.  I'm not quite sure their races and classes ever contradicted their vision, if anything the reason they ever gave was financial constraints, but that may no longer be an issue, they've had many rounds of funding, they've gotten lots of experience with the tech they are working with, etc.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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On 5/12/2017 at 8:45 AM, BarriaKarl said:

i just couldnt understand how they could only amount to 11 options.

I wonder, if they do separate race and class, if the Stalker class will go away, as it seems to be very similar to the Ranger. the two archetypes could consolidate to combine the best of both.

Edited by Weskejak

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20 hours ago, Rikutatis said:

I think a game just feels so much more coherent and cohesive if gameplay and lore are married. I know most people don't care and won't even read the lore. But I mean, I agree with you. The main source of conflict in Crowfall's lore should be economical and ideological first, not religious as it is in the lore atm, or racial as today's teaser points at. I mean, someone in this thread (I think it was Regulus) already said this: why would Crows carry on racial prejudice into their immortal, immaterial new existence? Bodies become transient to them, they transcended race, it makes very little sense that Crows would continue an elf-human feud. Likewise, the whole Dragon Throne war is described as the game's central conflict in the lore, but it seems to have very little to do with what players will be doing in certain world bands (and even in bands where god/faction matter, crows can change loyalty every campaign). At the very least the Gods-Crow relationship should be explored a little more, or even reimagined, to fit what will be happening gameplay wise. 


Yay, a fellow lorehound! But actually, the lore seems to be pretty consistent in how it doesn't seem to be a conflict of relgion, more cults of personality and the crows are providing for these political efforts with economy and territory. And again, pointing out the racial aspect of the crows (who can swap bodies on the fly whenever it suits them), race hardly seems to be a significant factor. Which is one of the reasons I don't quite understand its introduction now, we've already established the primary conflict to be mostly political depending which god individuals choose to follow, so why would a racial component be so necessary at this point? Maybe old habits die hard, but seems a thin way to push a narrative that is already rolling without it, especially when gameplay doesn't really seem to address it, beyond maybe RP. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind racial tensions, makes for some great RP, but more in environments that are more conducive to that kind of narrative, and I don't think CF is that kind of game.

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If it's not order v chaos v balance server ruleset launch (which isnt really unbelievable), then they are putting gods into the game as world bosses or something.  If anyone else came up with this theory first and it is correct, they read it here first and time travelled back to beat me.  gods in game would be unbelievable

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2 hours ago, goqua said:

If it's not order v chaos v balance server ruleset launch (which isnt really unbelievable), then they are putting gods into the game as world bosses or something.  If anyone else came up with this theory first and it is correct, they read it here first and time travelled back to beat me.  gods in game would be unbelievable

I originally thought this too (at first I thought that the Elken was a giant D'Orion), and thought it would be amazing, a lot like Conan Exiles. This would help SOOOOOOO freaking much to shake up status quo and allow for truly dynamic events to really shape the world and balance of the playerbase, ensuring that the biggest guilds and the zerg mentatlity isn't always the winning ones.

Take this as an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29skQN9C4fo

My biggest fear is that ACE allows zergfests to completely destroy CF and suffocate smaller guilds or competing guilds. I've lost faith that friendly fire will be used as a counter measure, so this is kinda the last hope I have that maybe gods will matter and bigger guilds and zergs have a check on them.

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1 hour ago, RKNM said:

My biggest fear is that ACE allows zergfests to completely destroy CF and suffocate smaller guilds or competing guilds. I've lost faith that friendly fire will be used as a counter measure, so this is kinda the last hope I have that maybe gods will matter and bigger guilds and zergs have a check on them.

I feel like this won't be as much of a problem as it is in other games simply because of the dying worlds, but not for the reason you might think.
I think that the lack of permanence regarding campaigns will give big guilds something to sweat about because smaller guilds and rival guilds have more incentive to stage attacks. Meaning at the end of the day, if they fail and succumb to a counter-attack, what they lose may not matter because they haven't permanently lost their place in the world.
More specifically, the material repercussions (ie, land, gear, resources) of a siege, failed or otherwise, will only last until the end of the campaign. At the start of a new campaign there's the potential for everyone to start at zero (depending on rules, I suppose) which will give the opportunity for coalitions of smaller guilds to snuff out large or problem guilds in their infancy.
Of course, this is all speculation and I could be very wrong. I'm not going to worry myself until we see a full campaign or two.


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On 5/13/2017 at 5:54 PM, VIKINGNAIL said:

1.  The reveal says it is something we won't believe. 

2.  It would not be minimal gain, it would make the game much more like an mmorpg and less like a moba, amongst other things depending how they implement it (for example racial bonuses could end up being another layer of character building that matters).

*They are adding a ton of disciplines anyway, and they aren't that worried about finding perfect balance.

*Adding a ton of disciplines anyway, maybe the art assets is something they've become more efficient at doing.

3.  It's what traditional mmorpgs often did, and people like options and more layers to character building.

4.  I'm not quite sure their races and classes ever contradicted their vision, if anything the reason they ever gave was financial constraints, but that may no longer be an issue, they've had many rounds of funding, they've gotten lots of experience with the tech they are working with, etc.

They used many things to describe the upcoming reveal: "massive", "impactful enough", "big splash", "incredibly cool", "you're going to love it", "you're not going to believe it" etc.. It's funny that you highlight the last one. If the reveal is going to be the race-class combos, it will certainly hit in the middle of the "you won't believe it" category for me and miss all the other ones like an archers who is shooting with his back to the target-boards and aims for the audience. As for you: race-class-combos won't hit the "believe"-category at all, but (if I understand you correctly) will touch some of the others.

I don't think race-class combos is something that you can characterize with by massive, incredibly cool, big splash etc. This is quite traditional. I also feel that it is mostly cosmetic thing for the RPers. I agree that you can have an additional layer for character customization with stats, but more layers doesn't always give you more options in the end. Once you optimize the whole thing, some layers may become redundant.

But I'm not going to argue what people like and don't. I see race-class combos as a cosmetic fluff, some may see them the coolest feature. And that is just fine. People enjoy different things.

My biggest doubt - why this is not the reveal - is that the design team seems to have a vision and a clear path to reach it. I do not see any reason why would they go backwards and change some fundamental systems of the game against their design. Race-class-combo doesn't really fit well with the vessel system, skills system nor how they have presented the classes so far. The only reason I see them doing anything against their initial plans is when the current design would be broken. And race class combo is not fixing anything. Hence, I'm putting my money on NO race-class-combos.

Note that the decisions is already made, I'm not trying to convince anybody.

 

Edited by Aldahen

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9 hours ago, Aldahen said:

I agree that you can have an additional layer for character customization with stats, but more layers doesn't always give you more options in the end. Once you optimize the whole thing, some layers may become redundant.

This is the weakness in your argument, as I see it.  You assert more layers of this sort wouldn't always give more options, and your basis is that once they "optimize" everything, layers may become redundant.  That's a vague assertion; you should clarify.  It's what your entire argument is based on, but your explanation is that once it's "optimized" (whatever that means) the race decisions will become worthless.

What I gather from this is only that you haven't played a game that allowed meaningful race distinctions, much less ones that could be impactful in terms of game mechanics (i.e., not just fluff).

For instance, in Shadowbane there were entire group compositions and counter compositions that focused around a given racial ability.  Having an additional layer does always give you more options in the end.  Unless you make the "layer" an illusion and it was never really meaningful in the first place.


"Food for the crows..."    Nobuo Xa'el

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10 hours ago, Aldahen said:

They used many things to describe the upcoming reveal: "massive", "impactful enough", "big splash", "incredibly cool", "you're going to love it", "you're not going to believe it" etc.. It's funny that you highlight the last one. If the reveal is going to be the race-class combos, it will certainly hit in the middle of the "you won't believe it" category for me and miss all the other ones like an archers who is shooting with his back to the target-boards and aims for the audience. As for you: race-class-combos won't hit the "believe"-category at all, but (if I understand you correctly) will touch some of the others.

I don't think race-class combos is something that you can characterize with by massive, incredibly cool, big splash etc. This is quite traditional. I also feel that it is mostly cosmetic thing for the RPers. I agree that you can have an additional layer for character customization with stats, but more layers doesn't always give you more options in the end. Once you optimize the whole thing, some layers may become redundant.

But I'm not going to argue what people like and don't. I see race-class combos as a cosmetic fluff, some may see them the coolest feature. And that is just fine. People enjoy different things.

My biggest doubt - why this is not the reveal - is that the design team seems to have a vision and a clear path to reach it. I do not see any reason why would they go backwards and change some fundamental systems of the game against their design. Race-class-combo doesn't really fit well with the vessel system, skills system nor how they have presented the classes so far. The only reason I see them doing anything against their initial plans is when the current design would be broken. And race class combo is not fixing anything. Hence, I'm putting my money on NO race-class-combos.

Note that the decisions is already made, I'm not trying to convince anybody.

 

It seems like you haven't played games where race + class can change the play experience quite dramatically.  An example being EQ1 where you literally couldn't see well at night as certain races.

You are also wrong about them going backwards on fundamental systems, they added the crow and vessels system (something this coming reveal was compared to in significance) and they definitely went back on their combat system after it wasn't working. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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