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Ready, aim, fire - Official discussion thread

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My biggest fear is that ACE allows zergfests to completely destroy CF and suffocate smaller guilds or competing guilds

In a year or two from now you can quote me on this. The game will be a zergfest, but mostly because of the level inter-dependency forced on the player base.

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4 minutes ago, Helix said:

 

 

In a year or two from now you can quote me on this. The game will be a zergfest, but mostly because of the level inter-dependency forced on the player base.

Yer sayn' if it takes a hundred bros (worse, accounts) to consume all of the content and ya just happen to have those hundred bros (or accounts) at your disposal ... why not bring em all to the bane on the 20 man guild?

Ya. I think you're on to something. Is it a problem, long term? Maybe.

Edited by coolwaters

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50 minutes ago, coolwaters said:

Yer sayn' if it takes a hundred bros (worse, accounts) to consume all of the content and ya just happen to have those hundred bros (or accounts) at your disposal ... why not bring em all to the bane on the 20 man guild?

Ya. I think you're on to something. Is it a problem, long term? Maybe.

Something like that, but more about the fact that I don't think a 20 man guild of single accounts will be able to compete resource wise against a 50 or 100 hundred man guild. More players, more accounts, more access to gatherers, more access to crafters. At least in the dregs where I 100% believe it will be every man, woman, child and guild for themselves. Will alliance form? Sure, but having been in quite a few of them myself in "ultra competitive" pvp games (like dfo, sb, etc) it's mostly an alliance of bodies and intelligence, not necessarily resources like gear. That's what happens when you force people to be a gatherer, a crafter or a fighter and then make them choose to be good at only one aspect of that choice for an extend period of time (like with having to choose which ore type to become proficient in).

Edited by Helix

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When you say compete what exactly do you mean? Do you mean a 20 man guild should be able to beat a 50 or 100 man guild? Or just be able to be competitive with them?


aeei5jG.png

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18 minutes ago, coolwaters said:

Compete for resources I'd imagine.

You need bodies (or accounts) to process those resources into usable things. I doubt you'll see many small guilds, more likely larger "zergish" guilds. People will still field those crafters and harvesters during sieges, unless of course those crafters/harvesters have fighter accounts. Your average 20 would be guild will then ballon to a 50+ man guild because the games resource harvesting and processing system demands it. Especially when you factor in the need to have a certain number of harvesters / crafters on concurrently. Gotta have a good size buffer. There's gonna be a poorly made socks ton of guild bloat in crowfall.

Edited by izkimar

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10 hours ago, mourne said:

This is the weakness in your argument, as I see it.  You assert more layers of this sort wouldn't always give more options, and your basis is that once they "optimize" everything, layers may become redundant.  That's a vague assertion; you should clarify.  It's what your entire argument is based on, but your explanation is that once it's "optimized" (whatever that means) the race decisions will become worthless.

What I gather from this is only that you haven't played a game that allowed meaningful race distinctions, much less ones that could be impactful in terms of game mechanics (i.e., not just fluff).

For instance, in Shadowbane there were entire group compositions and counter compositions that focused around a given racial ability.  Having an additional layer does always give you more options in the end.  Unless you make the "layer" an illusion and it was never really meaningful in the first place.

 

9 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

It seems like you haven't played games where race + class can change the play experience quite dramatically.  An example being EQ1 where you literally couldn't see well at night as certain races.. 

I acknowledge your comments on the possibilities of well implemented race-class-combos.

But first I must emphasize that possible triviality of race-class-combos is not the main reason why I think the reveal won't be about them. As I wrote earlier: my main reasoning is that it would not fit so well with the systems they have published so far for this game and that it wouldn't be anything massive. Unless they make it massive, but I do not think they have the resources and more importantly it is very risky and few have succeeded. And as veterans of the industry they know this.

I have played games where race-class combos made a big difference. And I must say I enjoyed them a lot as a player that used to like theorycrafting, but I also saw what a nightmare it is for the developer to keep their customers happy.

Vikingnail mentions night-vision. And this is exactly the direction that can make a difference and open up a new layer of customization: race specific skills. With these you can make unique combos. To enable this, ACE would need to create these skills and it doesn't fit into the current skills system. Note also that the skills systems is linked to their revenue stream. (subscribes can train 3 archetype skills while pay2play customers can train only one). If they add race specific skills, they would need to change this too. And more importantly they would need to come up with a meaningful skill set that really offers some choices. A lot to do.

Also there is the tendency of players to  min-max. No matter how you implement the race skills, there will be a perceived best combo that most players will use. Other combos are seen as gimped. So, the race system easily offers just a lot of work for developers with minimal gains for the players. Unless all classes have multiple ways you can play them and certain races augment these playstyles. But if you do this, then you are mainly just creating more best in class combos. E.g. instead of golem (race) being the best fighter (class). You have golem as the best mitigation-fighter and wood-elf as the best avoidance-fighter.

I'm already impressed by the amount of classes they have, I doubt they have the resources to open up the balancing nightmare with race-class-combos that offer real and impactful choice. More so as they already have these different playstyles inside the classes. There are several types of tanks, dps, support etc...

The other direction for races in MMOs is the difference is stats. This is the direction that usually leads race being a redundant layer for game play and mostly a choice for RPers. In these games, finally the gear your character uses will mostly out-weight by far the characters stats. This is often a design choice by developers. When you make race stats meaningless, you have less to balance and your customers do not complain: "I have spent gazillion hours on my halfling-tank and now you made my race useless for this class -> rage quit!"

So, I'm not in anyway against race-class-combos. They can make a difference in gameplay (but it is hard) and they are very important for roleplayers. It's also nice when the characters you meet look different. But based on what I know about Crowfall and it's developers, I have hard time seeing this being the massive reveal.

 

I do expect the reveal to open up customization and character differentiation in some way. There are clear hints of weapon and armor options, even weapon and armor styles. This might be linked to some kind of faction system or master-apprentice system. The faction system possibly linked to gods. I'm not sure what they will do, but I expect that it will have some Artcraft twist in it. Tomorrow we will know.

 

 

 

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OK so after egging my guild endlessly I got a group to go get minerals (and gems) so I could play with some necromancy before the probably wipe end of may...   and there it was!  The vessels have changed... no longer "Archetypes" rather ONLY races including 4 kinds of elves, several uses for human parts (Half elf, half giant) and the beast races (including the rat who isn't beastly but more ratly).

SO...   those of you who predict an uncoupling of AT as race-class fixed ARE correct...   the vessels already no longer reflect any class until you slot disciplines in them or pick the class when you enter the vessel and customize it.   Either way we now have a much more Shadowbane-like creation system including several new races all gaining differing racial base stats.  Nethari? = shade? or Nephilim?
 

sp7SfxY.png

Edited by Frykka

6FUI4Mk.jpg

                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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1 hour ago, Frykka said:

OK so after egging my guild endlessly I got a group to go get minerals (and gems) so I could play with some necromancy before the probably wipe end of may...   and there it was!  The vessels have changed... no longer "Archetypes" rather ONLY races including 4 kinds of elves, several uses for human parts (Half elf, half giant) and the beast races (including the rat who isn't beastly but more ratly).

SO...   those of you who predict an uncoupling of AT as race-class fixed ARE correct...   the vessels already no longer reflect any class until you slot disciplines in them or pick the class when you enter the vessel and customize it.   Either way we now have a much more Shadowbane-like creation system including several new races all gaining differing racial base stats.  Nethari? = shade? or Nephilim?
 

sp7SfxY.png

Half-elf, moon-elf, wood-elf, nethari
Very, very interesting indeed. I wonder what else they may have in store for us. There's that other placeholder at the bottom.


231e101d88.jpg

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1 hour ago, Frykka said:

OK so after egging my guild endlessly I got a group to go get minerals (and gems) so I could play with some necromancy before the probably wipe end of may...   and there it was!  The vessels have changed... no longer "Archetypes" rather ONLY races including 4 kinds of elves, several uses for human parts (Half elf, half giant) and the beast races (including the rat who isn't beastly but more ratly).

SO...   those of you who predict an uncoupling of AT as race-class fixed ARE correct...   the vessels already no longer reflect any class until you slot disciplines in them or pick the class when you enter the vessel and customize it.   Either way we now have a much more Shadowbane-like creation system including several new races all gaining differing racial base stats.  Nethari? = shade? or Nephilim?
 

sp7SfxY.png

I have to say that this is very interesting and gives credit to the uncoupling theory. With some bonuses like new races. I like it, even if Nethari are absolutely unknown to me.

Edited by Purpearl

1459889836-gein-william.png

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2 hours ago, Frykka said:

OK so after egging my guild endlessly I got a group to go get minerals (and gems) so I could play with some necromancy before the probably wipe end of may...   and there it was!  The vessels have changed... no longer "Archetypes" rather ONLY races including 4 kinds of elves, several uses for human parts (Half elf, half giant) and the beast races (including the rat who isn't beastly but more ratly).

SO...   those of you who predict an uncoupling of AT as race-class fixed ARE correct...   the vessels already no longer reflect any class until you slot disciplines in them or pick the class when you enter the vessel and customize it.   Either way we now have a much more Shadowbane-like creation system including several new races all gaining differing racial base stats.  Nethari? = shade? or Nephilim?
 

 

Sweet find! 

And I'm pretty psyched to see Half-Elf there as foretold in the prophesies.

Edited by ren

rSHxVEY.gif

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2 hours ago, Groovin said:

Very, very interesting indeed. I wonder what else they may have in store for us. There's that other placeholder at the bottom.

Developers had thirteen archetypes in plan after Kickstarter.

The picture show us thirteen vessel races (counting the placeholder) quite easily associated to an archetype,

Centaur => Legionnaire, Elken => Stalker, Fey => Assassin, Guinecean => Duelist, Half-elf => Ranger, Half-giant => Champion, Human => Knight, Minotaur => Myrmidon, Moon elf => Frostweaver, Nethari => Templar (or Confessor), Stoneborn => Forgemaster, Wood-elf => Druid, "placeholder" => Confessor (or Templar)  

Possibly ACE decided to split an archetype in some elements (racial) embeeded in the vessels and some others customizable (so we can't have a Legionnaire with Burrow). 

Edited by RikForFun

Catelyn: War will make them old, as it did us. I pity them.
Mathis: Why? Look at them. They're young and strong, full of life and laughter. And lust, aye, more lust than they know what to do with. There will be many a bastard bred this night, I promise you. Why pity?
Catelyn: Because it will not last. Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming.

A Clash of Kings, Chapter 22, Catelyn II.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crowfall Discord Channels: international (english) - italiano

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We've got:

  • Human
  • Half-Giant
  • Half-Elf
  • Moon-Elf
  • Wood-Elf
  • Centaur
  • Elken
  • Fey
  • Guinecean
  • Minotaur
  • Nethari
  • Stoneborn
  • recipe_necromancy_vessel_005_display

So we've got 3 Elves (Moon, Wood, Half).

Also please pay attention to Frykka UI image, notice that all vessels are organized in alphabetical order (C, E, F, G, H, H, H, M, M, N, S, W, recipe*). Now we have two options:

1. The unknown vessel true name starts with W, X, Y or Z and ACE just didnt want to tell us the name for now.
2. The unknown vessel for some reason just dont follow the pattern.

Edited by BarriaKarl

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5 minutes ago, izkimar said:

So are archetypes going to just be an amalgamation of abilities now? Cause that's a trip to crazy town.

I think "archetypes" are just gone. Pick a race, pick a class, customize via training and disciplines. I wonder if advantages and disadvantages will still be a thing. 


Hi, I'm moneda.

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2 minutes ago, izkimar said:

So are archetypes going to just be an amalgamation of abilities now? Cause that's a trip to crazy town.

I have a feeling you'll either get to pick a class at vessel creation, OR the core class is going to be a discipline runestone like the others (maybe cheaper to create like basic gear), OR there won't be any classes and just discipline runestones (maybe what we think of as class will be your primary weapon discipline). 

Either way yes, expect a trip to crazy town and some crazy broken builds incoming. Devs were already expecting this even with the original concept of AT + disciplines though. Now it'll just be even more customizable. Again, I just hope the limits they put in place to this system will prevent "do it all" builds. One of the major draws of Crowfall's combat for me was party roles and team comps that matter. 


 

 

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