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Another element of the game loop rears its (ugly) little head


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So, I spent a chunk of time this AM doing some gathering...  (Lost a purple book to the spirit bank, so I need a new advanced weapon)

As is oft the case, I was keep pretty close track of drop rates, tool breakage, etc...

  • I ended up burning through four blue quality tools harvesting travertine
  • In doing so, I ended up with rough 40 blue travertine, a handful of purple and green, and bunch of white (plus a couple pieces with a red border which I haven't seen before)

It takes roughly 7.2 blue quality materials to replace a broken tool

  • 4 pieces of ore
  • 3 pieces of stone
  • 1 piece of parchment

Given that white stone really isn't worth that much these days and even greens are questionable for tools, my conclusion is that its not longer really viable for players who are untrained in gathering to go off and collect resources...  Simply put, its not possible to get a decent Return on Investment, especially when once calculates the time required to hit nodes.

Consider what would happen were I to hand off my tools to a dedicated gatherer...

Even before a gather reaches te "advanced" tray, they already have a variety of abilities that significant impact the amount of damage that a tool will do to a resource node.  As such, their tools are going to last MUCH longer which means that they make more profit.  (They will also be able to clear nodes in a much shorter period of time).  Once the gatherers get into "Ore specialization" or "wood specialization" they'll also get a variety of other bonuses that make it even more beneficial to have harvesting performed by specialists...

So farewell to Narsille's side career punching rocks...

Time to focus

 

 

 

 

Edited by narsille

WAZ6Fov.png

"The cinnabar is a lie"

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15 minutes ago, narsille said:

my conclusion is that its not longer really viable for players who are untrained in gathering to go off and collect resources

So... What is the problem here? Reading your thread name i thought we had some serious problems but it turns out that it just the game mechanics working.

Edited by BarriaKarl
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1 minute ago, BarriaKarl said:

So... What is the problem here? Reading your thread name i thought we had some serious problems but it turns out that it just the game mechanincs working.

I don't think that we have a "problem" per se...

I agree that this is the game mechanics working as intended

However, I am going to miss punching rocks...  Its kinda therapeutic...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

WAZ6Fov.png

"The cinnabar is a lie"

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1 minute ago, BarriaKarl said:

So... What is the problem here? Reading your thread name i thought we had some serious problems but it turns out that it just the game mechanincs working.

If it is true, Then it means the Current loop to the game is broken ( Harvest > Craft > Better harvest > Better Craft) Is broken As the latter two are no longer occuring. Meaning that there is literally zero point to crafting / harvesting at the moment as the ROI for harvesting is unobtainable. 

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Just now, SirGeorge said:

If it is true, Then it means the Current loop to the game is broken ( Harvest > Craft > Better harvest > Better Craft) Is broken As the latter two are no longer occuring. Meaning that there is literally zero point to crafting / harvesting at the moment as the ROI for harvesting is unobtainable. 

Its only broken if there are no trained gatherers....

(And potentially only for high level mats)

 

 

 

WAZ6Fov.png

"The cinnabar is a lie"

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22 minutes ago, narsille said:

I don't think that we have a "problem" per se...

I agree that this is the game mechanics working as intended

However, I am going to miss punching rocks...  Its kinda therapeutic...

 

It feels kinda incomplete without all the mechanics online. The correct would be the gatherer to collect and sell to crafters to craft stuff and finally you to buy what you want and go fight but since everyone is doing their own stuff the cicle is broken. A player has to gather, craft and fight.

We are missing "money" that is the mechanism to create player interaction.

I believe the only ones who can specialize  without problem are players in guilds.

AND lets not forget that crafting isnt the best it could be.

Edited by BarriaKarl
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erm.... lol.

The whole point is that people without gathering skills aren't intended to be gathering. You are absolutely correct that the ROI is awful. You aren't trained in gathering :P

Agree with first responder; "working as intended".

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This is intended. And its something i knew was a thing way before anyone validated the data.

So the thing for me is, should it be like this? Because what you are asking people is to put the 100% full burden of gathering on a select few people that its the only thing they -can- do. And then give them nothing in return. 

Their hard work gets funneled to people who really had no hand in getting the materials. You can claim that the people will need guards, but how big these worlds are and no real reason to force conflict over nodes, it won't actually be a thing. And i would even argue, more people would draw more attention. Just solo gankers would bother with a single person. And theres archetypes to stick with so it wont be a issue to get away from these solo gankers. POI's are a different ball game, obviously, but the materials generated for them is used in a entirely different game mechanic. 

I cant imagine telling these people to go spend hours and hours and hours of all their free time to get materials for other people. They cant even craft with this material. And this goes on for MONTHS until they can add granite to their harvest list, instead of just slate.

How is this a functioning model for a game?

But as with all the current systems, we shall see how it starts to pan out. We are still barebone framework with gathering.

Edited by Vectious

CfWBSig.png

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18 minutes ago, Vectious said:

So the thing for me is, should it be like this? Because what you are asking people is to put the 100% full burden of gathering on a select few people that its the only thing they -can- do. And then give them nothing in return. 

 

If people do that then they suck at capitalism.

Or if it is a guild thing and they are expected to just hand stuff over for nothing in return, then I guess they should leave that guild?

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2 hours ago, dochollidaze said:

If people do that then they suck at capitalism.

Or if it is a guild thing and they are expected to just hand stuff over for nothing in return, then I guess they should leave that guild?

I understand what @Vectious says, the gatherer doesnt receive anything in return since gear or money isnt needed. I think the payment a gatherer receives is feeling that his job is needed and any joy he may feel while harversting.

I plan to be a gatherer for no other reason than that i like to hunt. Likes to hunt -> Skinner. That is enough for me and i will have a blast, i am a simple person afterall.

A crafter is a crafter because he enjoys crafting and he sells his wares to buy more materials to craft harder. He sells to buy.

A fighter is here for the thrill of bathing in the hot blood of his enemies and uses any mats and money to upgrade gear so that he can hit harder. He buys/fight for/loot to fight.

The gatherers harverst for fun or because they have to (for his guild). Sell because he can/needs.

For those reason i believe gatherers will be relatively rare since no one wants to just keep pressing F for hours.

Edited by BarriaKarl
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Hmm. Gatherers Unite! or something. 
A couple simple little videos that too way too much time. 
Proof of where I am in the skill tree. Roughly 29 days spent training up basic and ore excavation. 


Then the Actual gathering. Yes it is boring that is kinda the point. 

Then for fun I threw in a Crafting video too. All white mats. Somehow one combine came out grey.  42 days training for basics and Runecrafting. 

Enjoy!

Edited by srathor
Days for Runecrafting
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17 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Great design on ACE's part.  This way epic and legendary stuff will truly be epic and legendary in rarity. 

When did it become a borderline heretic position to believe that a game can simultaneously gate off expertise and have an enjoyable early-game experience across functions? I'm genuinely interested to learn. Because I never remember this being the case even years ago when hardcore gamers were the average population in MMOs, and as a game designer and developer I just don't see the sense behind it or the evidence for it. What I do see is a position held strongly by a portion of the community that would result in a very ugly business case for any company.

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1 hour ago, IHeartFargo said:

When did it become a borderline heretic position to believe that a game can simultaneously gate off expertise and have an enjoyable early-game experience across functions? I'm genuinely interested to learn. Because I never remember this being the case even years ago when hardcore gamers were the average population in MMOs, and as a game designer and developer I just don't see the sense behind it or the evidence for it. What I do see is a position held strongly by a portion of the community that would result in a very ugly business case for any company.

This is supposed to be a niche game.  The problem isn't that the early-game experience isn't enjoyable.  It's that some people want things convenient and easy, or they don't consider it enjoyable.

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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3 hours ago, BarriaKarl said:

I understand what @Vectious says, the gatherer doesnt receive anything in return since gear or money isnt needed. I think the payment a gatherer receives is feeling that his job is needed and any joy he may feel while harversting.

I plan to be a gatherer for no other reason than that i like to hunt. Likes to hunt -> Skinner. That is enough for me and i will have a blast, i am a simple person afterall.

A crafter is a crafter because he enjoys crafting and he sells his wares to buy more materials to craft harder. He sells to buy.

A fighter is here for the thrill of bathing in the hot blood of his enemies and uses any mats and money to upgrade gear so that he can hit harder. He buys/fight for/loot to fight.

The gatherers harverst for fun or because they have to (for his guild). Sell because he can/needs.

For those reason i believe gatherers will be relatively rare since no one wants to just keep pressing F for hours.

 

I based my comments on a perspective that Crowfall will be a competitive game, and as such many people will want to compete. If you enjoy doing stuff like that all day that's your thing, but everybody I've talked to playing this game has at least 2 and may end up with 3 accounts. Combat, Crafting, Harvesting. I'm doing the three.

I'll harvest stuff when I need it, craft it into what I plan on trading and selling, or most likely use for the crafting goods for myself.

So as a harvester, I will actually get a lot out of what I harvest. I'll just switch between roles when I feel like doing something different.

It's "buy to play", so not really that expensive in the long run to do this.

And so, I suppose in that case yes, the solo single-account harvesters will probably get nothing out of the that except fulfilling their desire to whack on rocks. To each their own.

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56 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

This is supposed to be a niche game.  The problem isn't that the early-game experience isn't enjoyable.  It's that some people want things convenient and easy, or they don't consider it enjoyable.

I think you can still have all three of these propositions be true (1] Specialization should be both important and difficult, 2] The early game experience should be seamless enough to entice new players without disrupting the mid- or late-stage economies, and 3] that the game will remain niche and cater primarily to that niche) simultaneously. That may not be true, but what I haven't quite heard from a design standpoint is why that may not be true. I tend to get a lot of heat for asking this question, but mostly it has been of the variety that doesn't actually answer my question. Hence why I keep asking it. That said, I try not to be too aggressive about it. I know that my views aren't commonly held here, and my ultimate interest is always only in getting ACE to a point where CF will start and remain profitable enough to truly grow over time.

Edited by IHeartFargo
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9 minutes ago, IHeartFargo said:

I think you can still have all three of these propositions be true (1] Specialization should be both important and difficult, 2] The early game experience should be seamless enough to entice new players without disrupting the mid- or late-stage economies, and 3] that the game will remain niche and cater primarily to that niche) simultaneously. That may not be true, but what I haven't quite heard from a design standpoint is why that may not be true. I tend to get a lot of heat for asking this question, but mostly it has been of the variety that doesn't actually answer my question. Hence why I keep asking it. That said, I try not to be too aggressive about it. I know that my views aren't commonly held here, and my ultimate interest is always only in getting ACE to a point where CF will start and remain profitable enough to truly grow over time.

The amount of people JTC thinks can make the game thrive is modest enough to where they truly can be niche.

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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30 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

The amount of people JTC thinks can make the game thrive is modest enough to where they truly can be niche.

Okay so the claim is that the people who are the target audience are already enough of the mind that the system functions as it should, and get enjoyment from all aspects of that system either as they are or as they are believed to be at launch, that there isn't a need to attract people from outside that niche, at least not to break even consistently? Just checking. I can't refute that claim out of hand. It may be true. But I also don't understand what ACE would lose if they were able to both retain that niche core and attract additional players from outside of it, without diluting what originally enticed that niche core. That's the part I have difficulty understanding. I'm not sure I can debate the practicality of it overall. Funding and time are both very limited, probably more so than most people realize. But I think that many simple and small adjustments would go a long way toward attracting a larger base (again, without alienating the core) at relatively low initial cost and with likely significant monetary gains in time. That's mostly what I'm arguing for when I talk about these things: small, incremental changes that don't dilute the larger vision.

Edited by IHeartFargo
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13 minutes ago, IHeartFargo said:

Okay so the claim is that the people who are the target audience are already enough of the mind that the system functions as it should, and get enjoyment from all aspects of that system either as they are or as they are believed to be at launch, that there isn't a need to attract people from outside that niche, at least not to break even consistently? Just checking. I can't refute that claim out of hand. It may be true. But I also don't understand what ACE would lose if they were able to both retain that niche core and attract additional players from outside of it, without diluting what originally enticed that niche core. That's the part I have difficulty understanding. I'm not sure I can debate the practicality of it overall. Funding and time are both very limited, probably more so than most people realize. But I think that many simple and small adjustments would go a long way toward attracting a larger base (again, without alienating the core) at relatively low initial cost and with likely significant monetary gains in time. That's mostly what I'm arguing for when I talk about these things: small, incremental changes that don't dilute the larger vision.

No, but the people that end up lasting in a pvp-centric game are not always the ones that think they will like the game before it is close to completion.  It doesn't matter if they are already on board now or later, ACE has a vision, if they follow that  vision they should get the amount of players that they aim for. 

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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8 hours ago, dochollidaze said:

I based my comments on a perspective that Crowfall will be a competitive game, and as such many people will want to compete. If you enjoy doing stuff like that all day that's your thing, but everybody I've talked to playing this game has at least 2 and may end up with 3 accounts. Combat, Crafting, Harvesting. I'm doing the three.

I'll harvest stuff when I need it, craft it into what I plan on trading and selling, or most likely use for the crafting goods for myself.

So as a harvester, I will actually get a lot out of what I harvest. I'll just switch between roles when I feel like doing something different.

It's "buy to play", so not really that expensive in the long run to do this.

And so, I suppose in that case yes, the solo single-account harvesters will probably get nothing out of the that except fulfilling their desire to whack on rocks. To each their own.

Damn, you make me feel like a weirdo. :)

I am not too competitive, i always try to have fun first. Crafting and PvPing are interesting but it would get repetitive sooner or later. Also even though i am a gatherer doesnt mean i cant enjoy some PvP sometimes.

I dont understand what exactly makes you want to have Multiple Accounts (MA). Everyone must enjoy one role more than the others so why waste time and money just to be "competitive"? Why not just rely on others to help you, like making friends with a crafter who can easily craft for you FOR FREE if you provide the mats?

You seem like a guy who dont really enjoy gathering so why bother?

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