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"Massive Reveal" Day - Official discussion thread

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3 minutes ago, Apok said:

This is over the top, and a large exaggeration. You have been told not all the Disciplines are released yet, you have been told this is a first pass on them, and further more I don't think I've heard a single person talk about even taking the Discipline. Classes will have hard counters, it won't just be Fessor, wait to see what happens when the rest are released instead of throwing a tantrum before you even have a full picture.

It's because people are testing them, but I didn't even notice Holy Avenger allows you to be fire immune 66% of the time (15 sec buff, 22 sec reuse), none of the runes are on these type of scales vs one class.  How disgruntled would people be if we got a fessor/fw/druid only disc that makes us immune to all physical attacks for 66% of the time?

  It truly confounds me that people choose to only see certain aspects of things, as in this case, one class is disproportionally affected by some 'defensive' disc runes that literally affect no one else (there are what, two other fire attacks in the game, maybe?).  While balance is important as an after-the-fact idea (because so much is bugged/just not working), it's the idea that one class gets hammered on multiple runes, and other classes get no such hindrances.

And it's very easy to prove that if it happened to any person's fave class, they would be up in arms too, just go look at posts about druids, rangers, myrms, champs, etc, bugs/perceived imbalances, to include some in just the snap test last night.  But throw 3 discs in that affect 1 class more than others, "Hey, it's okay, just wait, they'll "fix themselves"", when it's not the balance that is the issue, it's the base concept(s).

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That's a boat load of work and thought.

Thanks Kindly.


“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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Just now, mivius said:

It's because people are testing them, but I didn't even notice Holy Avenger allows you to be fire immune 66% of the time (15 sec buff, 22 sec reuse), none of the runes are on these type of scales vs one class.  How disgruntled would people be if we got a fessor/fw/druid only disc that makes us immune to all physical attacks for 66% of the time?

  It truly confounds me that people choose to only see certain aspects of things, as in this case, one class is disproportionally affected by some 'defensive' disc runes that literally affect no one else (there are what, two other fire attacks in the game, maybe?).  While balance is important as an after-the-fact idea (because so much is bugged/just not working), it's the idea that one class gets hammered on multiple runes, and other classes get no such hindrances.

And it's very easy to prove that if it happened to any person's fave class, they would be up in arms too, just go look at posts about druids, rangers, myrms, champs, etc, bugs/perceived imbalances, to include some in just the snap test last night.  But throw 3 discs in that affect 1 class more than others, "Hey, it's okay, just wait, they'll "fix themselves"", when it's not the balance that is the issue, it's the base concept(s).

Unlke you I'm waiting to see the full picture, do you actually think something that gives people immunity to one classes damage 60%+ of of the time isn't going to get adjusted? And maybe there will be a Disc that allows you to become immune to physical. We don't know because it's incomplete, test them this weekend, get results, give feedback, you won't be the only one giving Dev feedback if it's as bad as you say.

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24 minutes ago, Apok said:

Unlke you I'm waiting to see the full picture, do you actually think something that gives people immunity to one classes damage 60%+ of of the time isn't going to get adjusted? And maybe there will be a Disc that allows you to become immune to physical. We don't know because it's incomplete, test them this weekend, get results, give feedback, you won't be the only one giving Dev feedback if it's as bad as you say.

You don't need the whole picture to see how things are shaping up.  There will not be a physical immunity rune, they already have blade turner, shield breaker, and (I forget the other), which aren't even on par with just the Firewalker rune, no, really, they are like minor disc runes in comparison. 

Some classes can use as many as 8 weapons, fessor can use 1 (supposed to be 2, but no foci yet, maybe 3 if Adjudicator is supposed to actually be fessor usable, but I am sure that will be removed too), and we can only use fire, and they have broken every aspect of melee damage up into individual parts (slash, shield, etc).

But to answer the question, of course they will change it, but my reservation is: probably not for the better, if history holds true for their handling of confessor issues.

If Firewalker worked atm, you could be 100% immune to fire 100% of the time.  I have zero faith they will "fix" it, it took me less than one second to do the math that the HA ability allows you to be immune to fire 66% of the time: IE how did this even make it in as a test number?  The fact that it made it in like this as an unbroken (ie, it actually works) state says volumes about their attitude towards confessor's/ranged dps.  With the limited amount of runes released, I seriously doubt this can be attributed to simple 'oversight'...but then again, I'm just not the fanboi many seem to be: I prefer being a realist.

Giving Dev's fedback is only useful if they act on it, and they have a lot on their plate, and as previously stated many times, have a perceivable bias against confessors, so I am not holding my breath.

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Best to just wait and see how things shake out.  99.99% of theorycrafting happening right now ends up being wrong because they are either way too premature before people truly test everything out or because things change drastically from their first implementation anyway. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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"and as previously stated many times, have a perceivable bias against confessors, so I am not holding my breath."

Lol yea they put the time in to implement this class and abilities but now they are biased against it. Makes sense, like I said yesterday quit crying and test it out for yourself. They stated multiple times Disc's are going to change. Not sure why your still so upset about it. Take a hiatus for a couple months until things get balanced because I do not think anyone wants to hear about your "Anti-Confessor" agenda for another 5 months

 

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19 minutes ago, supportdaddy said:

"and as previously stated many times, have a perceivable bias against confessors, so I am not holding my breath."

Lol yea they put the time in to implement this class and abilities but now they are biased against it. Makes sense, like I said yesterday quit crying and test it out for yourself. They stated multiple times Disc's are going to change. Not sure why your still so upset about it. Take a hiatus for a couple months until things get balanced because I do not think anyone wants to hear about your "Anti-Confessor" agenda for another 5 months

 

Confessors are easy mode and it's funny when people think there is a bias against them.  Suffice it to say, a wellplayed confessor is one of the strongest things for individual playstyle right now. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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22 hours ago, galiswyn ta'kier said:

BLESS you!!!! this restores so much excitement for me about Crowfall!  Now the Firstborn can return in their proper glory!!!!

So you are praising the dwarves or the half giants, I can't figure which one.  Because dirty elves definitely didn't come first. :P

(It's all meant as fun!)


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1 hour ago, mivius said:

You don't need the whole picture to see how things are shaping up.  There will not be a physical immunity rune, they already have blade turner, shield breaker, and (I forget the other), which aren't even on par with just the Firewalker rune, no, really, they are like minor disc runes in comparison. 

Some classes can use as many as 8 weapons, fessor can use 1 (supposed to be 2, but no foci yet, maybe 3 if Adjudicator is supposed to actually be fessor usable, but I am sure that will be removed too), and we can only use fire, and they have broken every aspect of melee damage up into individual parts (slash, shield, etc).

But to answer the question, of course they will change it, but my reservation is: probably not for the better, if history holds true for their handling of confessor issues.

If Firewalker worked atm, you could be 100% immune to fire 100% of the time.  I have zero faith they will "fix" it, it took me less than one second to do the math that the HA ability allows you to be immune to fire 66% of the time: IE how did this even make it in as a test number?  The fact that it made it in like this as an unbroken (ie, it actually works) state says volumes about their attitude towards confessor's/ranged dps.  With the limited amount of runes released, I seriously doubt this can be attributed to simple 'oversight'...but then again, I'm just not the fanboi many seem to be: I prefer being a realist.

Giving Dev's fedback is only useful if they act on it, and they have a lot on their plate, and as previously stated many times, have a perceivable bias against confessors, so I am not holding my breath.

There should be a way out of this, and there is. 

Standard Bearer overrides the damage type to change to electric. 

They need a few more of these type of overrides.

But to take a discipline rune thats only good vs 1 of the 9 damage types (and not even very common of them either) is not very efficient, and that in itself is a balance. 

Take slashing for example, up to 5 different classes could be using slashing so a rune to target slashing it statistically stronger then one that avoids fire which only 1 of the 11 classes use. 


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29 minutes ago, Vectious said:

There should be a way out of this, and there is. 

Standard Bearer overrides the damage type to change to electric. 

They need a few more of these type of overrides.

But to take a discipline rune thats only good vs 1 of the 9 damage types (and not even very common of them either) is not very efficient, and that in itself is a balance. 

Take slashing for example, up to 5 different classes could be using slashing so a rune to target slashing it statistically stronger then one that avoids fire which only 1 of the 11 classes use. 

And I appreciate the Standard Bearer concept (I liked the guys post who mentioned it yesterday first), but I cannot get it to work (though I was not at home yesterday and was doing so from my laptop, which is not on par with the desktop @ home).

That being said, this is one of the few instances where I perceive group play over the individual. But if in group play you can completely eliminate one class by equipping one or two runes, what group comp wouldn't have a 'confessor killer', especially considering the prevailing attitudes about fessor CC & Abso?

Again, confessors already have a hard-counter class, and only hard-counter one other class: either of the 2 runes (Firewalker or Holy Avenger) essentially negate the 'hard-counter' confessor represents, without equivalent in return.  Now I know people keep spouting 'But they're not done yet', and again do you really think the first runes released were random, and not specifically chosen?  They threw darts at a list of ideas and went with those?  Actions speak to intent, and we got a LOT of information here.

We are also left to do a LOT of guesswork for testing. So many people saying wait for balance, changes, new disc's, etc, but do you honestly believe they will make random changes based on nothing?  Again, quoting someone they will "fix themselves", and that is patently, and historically, untrue.  I will continue to fight for what I perceive as 'equity' across classes, and most especially the single ranged dps class the game has to offer, at the earliest time I see an issue.  Many of you choose other routes, cool, we're all different, this is my way.

 

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For anyone wondering about the exact number of class, race, and discipline combinations, it comes out to be over 48 billion, or 48,711,936,000. (Forty eight billion, seven hundred and eleven million, nine hundred and thirty six thousand).

 

This is assuming:

-----------------------

- 40 Race/Class combinations (counted from the chart)

- 16 weapon disciplines (from the picture)

- 35 Major Disciplines (As stated in the article)

- 41 Minor Disciplines (As stated in the article)

- No discipline can be taken twice

 

This resulting calculation is (contrary to what was in the article ,which allowed for taking the same discipline twice):

-----------------------

40 class/race combinations * 16 weapon disciplines * (35*34) major discipline combinations * (41*40*39) minor discipline calculations = 48,711,936,000 different race, class, and discipline combinations.

Edited by Raizex

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I loved character building in SB.  This creates a similar experience and makes me much more excited for the game.


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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34 minutes ago, Raizex said:

For anyone wondering about the exact number of class, race, and discipline combinations, it comes out to be over 48 billion, or 48,711,936,000. (Forty eight billion, seven hundred and eleven million, nine hundred and thirty six thousand).

 

This is assuming:

-----------------------

- 40 Race/Class combinations (counted from the chart)

- 16 weapon disciplines (from the picture)

- 35 Major Disciplines (As stated in the article)

- 41 Minor Disciplines (As stated in the article)

- No discipline can be taken twice

 

This resulting calculation is, contrary to what was in the article (which allowed for taking the same discipline twice), this:

-----------------------

40 class/race combinations * 16 weapon disciplines * (35*34) major discipline combinations * (41*40*39) minor discipline calculations = 48,711,936,000.

Only 48 Bi? Now add promotions and Adv/Disv. Not sure if they are still planned to the game but can you imagine how many combinations that would amount to?

And those Discs arent final! They still have Crafting/harversting Discs! And they will still increase them till launch.

Hell! Even the powers(and passives) equipped in the tray can count as another customization aspect! This one would be tricky to insert on the calculations but would still increase the option a few times.

The final number of combinations possible at launch should be mind blowing! They should definitely do the math throughly and use this when marketing!

Edited by BarriaKarl

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On 5/18/2017 at 9:24 AM, mivius said:

I prefer being a realist.

I won't be using any anti-X runes. While nice and likely taken advantage by those going for niche builds/role, I don't see much value overall. As I'll likely be playing something with stealth, I'll be worried about those running anti-stealth, but that's part of the challenge to me. All classes should have access to multiple weapon/damage types and hopefully they build this out over time.

However, I believe it is still too early to be up in arms over such things. Much like those going on and on about XYZ being weak/OP for quite a while. Clearly things have and will continue to evolve as development moves on. 

If ACE knows what they are doing, internal metrics should be telling them how many of X class-race-rune-ability-whatever are being used and they should be making adjustments. If one or a couple runes completely negate a class/role on a large scale, they will need to adjust. At this point, it's partial puzzle theorycraft.

If something breaks how you want to play and the devs don't seem to care, time to move on to something else be it class or game. A couple days after release of a "massive" update is too early to come to any real conclusions of what they will or won't do. State your opinion/complaint/case and let it ride.

Edited by APE

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On 5/18/2017 at 0:24 PM, mivius said:

You don't need the whole picture to see how things are shaping up.  There will not be a physical immunity rune, they already have ARMOR.

Fixed for accuracy. 

I"m just going to throw my two cents in here - if a guild is taking a rune with 66% fire immunity en masse, then they won't be very well prepared when you show up with friends who aren't confessors. Rainbow your damage types, pay attention to whom you do the most damage to, and it shouldn't really be an issue. If they find it to be an issue, I'm certain it'll get adjusted/tweaked/nerfed. Remember that confessors were one of the core classes from Shadowbane - I don't think they will be killed off.

 

On 5/18/2017 at 0:53 PM, VIKINGNAIL said:

Best to just wait and see how things shake out.  99.99% of theorycrafting happening right now ends up being wrong because they are either way too premature before people truly test everything out or because things change drastically from their first implementation anyway. 

Agreed.


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Race, class, disciplines; that's nice.

But without a similarly impactful change to the fundamentals of the crafting system I will not be playing this game regardless of the new window dressing.

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I hope the issues plaguing AMD/Radeon users gets sorted out.  I think that has been the source of my crashes.


"Food for the crows..."    Nobuo Xa'el

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