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Kolazar

Bots The Destroyer of Worlds: Call to Arms.

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Bots have ruined many of my favorite games. And popularity of a game only increases the chance of mass bot production. So what if any plans did Crowfall have to combat the bot epidemic? one possible solution would be to have accounts have a creation fee but seems more like a speed bump rather than a wall. 

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The botting issue mostly solves itself

Since the game is full pvp any bots seen botting would be able to be killed on sight, unless the previously named exploits come into play where the bots just port around. As for farming in the ek's bots will have a dreadful time of it since it only drops the poorest of the socks in resources.

Now if the bots somehow manage to avoid the roving bands of murder ganks, and somehow thrive in the campaign worlds, they still have to 1. export the resources. gotta get their ill gotten gains to embargo's which has limited space and capacity, once something is in it cannot be taken out.

2. Campaigns can take months to complete, so bots would have to do their transactions during the campaign itself.

3.They would have to win to take out the vast majority of their resources from the embargo and depending on which band they are on usually means that their resources is of low tier mats. A step up from ek's bot not usually much.

Also I highly doubt that you wouldn't be able to report bots to have them banned.

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16 minutes ago, Kolazar said:

one possible solution would be to have accounts have a creation fee but seems more like a speed bump rather than a wall. 

You know that solution has already been implemented, right? You have to buy the game to play it.


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6 minutes ago, Jah said:

You know that solution has already been implemented, right? You have to buy the game to play it.

well that's for early access will there still be a box price once the game has been fully released?

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9 minutes ago, Vuris said:

The botting issue mostly solves itself

Since the game is full pvp any bots seen botting would be able to be killed on sight, unless the previously named exploits come into play where the bots just port around. As for farming in the ek's bots will have a dreadful time of it since it only drops the poorest of the socks in resources.

Now if the bots somehow manage to avoid the roving bands of murder ganks, and somehow thrive in the campaign worlds, they still have to 1. export the resources. gotta get their ill gotten gains to embargo's which has limited space and capacity, once something is in it cannot be taken out.

2. Campaigns can take months to complete, so bots would have to do their transactions during the campaign itself.

3.They would have to win to take out the vast majority of their resources from the embargo and depending on which band they are on usually means that their resources is of low tier mats. A step up from ek's bot not usually much.

Also I highly doubt that you wouldn't be able to report bots to have them banned.

I like your ideas on this. but in the past banning shows no results without some sort of investment in the bot aside from creation time (the 50$ dollar investment @Blazzen). And people sleep or go have fun doing other things ( at some point go offline) so murdering group squads would prove ineffective during those hours. The campaigns would create a challenge depending on how many severs wide the campaigns are. overall I'm not trying to shoot down everyone ideas I just want this not to be a problem before it becomes one. Because once it is a problem it's far far far too late.

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6 minutes ago, Kolazar said:

I like your ideas on this. but in the past banning shows no results without some sort of investment in the bot aside from creation time (the 50$ dollar investment @Blazzen). And people sleep or go have fun doing other things ( at some point go offline) so murdering group squads would prove ineffective during those hours. The campaigns would create a challenge depending on how many severs wide the campaigns are. overall I'm not trying to shoot down everyone ideas I just want this not to be a problem before it becomes one. Because once it is a problem it's far far far too late.

50 dollars is a major investment if your not turning around large amounts of profit per bot, per account created. That is what allows bots to continue to exist, the flow of money. it would require player to purchase from a shady website, who in turn would provide said players with items they requested. Most likely lumber, ore, stone, etc. Stuff that isn't useful to your average pker, though is of value to crafters. Now there is also the other edge that they could create crafting bots, which is always plausible, but that's an even bigger time sink into the game for possibly little payout. And the only goods that will have universal value would be coins which would have to be crafted as well, from mats that are gotten from campaign worlds that you can't take stuff out of unless you embargo it, which means you can no longer move it around and is frozen until the campaigns end, and they can only take so much out of it if they do win.

All of this creates a time gate for botters to work around, and the longer they go at it the more likely they are to be reported and subsequently banned. Sure the bots can do it on the off peak hours, but there will be off peak hours players looking for a spot 'o fun as well and whose to say that they won't get their kicks off bots? But the major nail in this coffin boils down to is there a market that player are willing to pay bots for with such a large time gate blocking them?

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1 hour ago, Jah said:

You know that solution has already been implemented, right? You have to buy the game to play it.

It hasn't stopped other games from having them. WoW, FFXIV and others still have bots. The only games I haven't seen or heard of bots are ones with huge amounts of bind on pickup gear and item.

39 minutes ago, Vuris said:

50 dollars is a major investment if your not turning around large amounts of profit per bot, per account created. That is what allows bots to continue to exist, the flow of money. it would require player to purchase from a shady website, who in turn would provide said players with items they requested. Most likely lumber, ore, stone, etc. Stuff that isn't useful to your average pker, though is of value to crafters. Now there is also the other edge that they could create crafting bots, which is always plausible, but that's an even bigger time sink into the game for possibly little payout. And the only goods that will have universal value would be coins which would have to be crafted as well, from mats that are gotten from campaign worlds that you can't take stuff out of unless you embargo it, which means you can no longer move it around and is frozen until the campaigns end, and they can only take so much out of it if they do win.

All of this creates a time gate for botters to work around, and the longer they go at it the more likely they are to be reported and subsequently banned. Sure the bots can do it on the off peak hours, but there will be off peak hours players looking for a spot 'o fun as well and whose to say that they won't get their kicks off bots? But the major nail in this coffin boils down to is there a market that player are willing to pay bots for with such a large time gate blocking them?

PK'ers want gear. They can buy materials to have their crafter make it.

I don't see out of campaign needs being high but I do see in campaign needs being high. So long as bots are in the campaigns then they will sell stuff. There will be some campaigns that have factions, I assume you can't murder same faction bots.


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Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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How about the training time? I mean, after a ban, on a new account the bot have to train the gathering skills again, which takes weeks / months. With a good monitoring system a non-stop (eg.: >15-20 hour / day) gathering player could be easily spotted and after a few warnings can be banned again.

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On 5/18/2017 at 4:01 PM, jetah said:

It hasn't stopped other games from having them. WoW, FFXIV and others still have bots. The only games I haven't seen or heard of bots are ones with huge amounts of bind on pickup gear and item.

In fairness, the reason that WoW and FF14 have such a proliferance of bots is twofold. One, there is no risk involved in botting beyond the potential for an account ban, which is in absolutely no way true for Crowfall because of the PvP rules. Two, there is an easy way to monetize the results of farming in most MMOs: gold.

There's no gold in Crowfall, and there are no NPCs and there is no anonymous market. Eventually, the bots will have to exchange their harvested goods with an actual human being in one fashion or another before they can monetize their bot. That adds an entire secondary step in the middle of the normal farming process that is probably enough to prevent it on its own.

There might be a secondary market of goods sold for real-world money eventually, but I sincerely doubt that automating it will ever be worth the cost it would run to be efficient.

Edit: Honestly, the lack of safe zones is probably going to be the big deterrent. No matter how complicated the developers make it to monetize your product after farming it, the real bottleneck will be the fact that it's a slow, complicated, multi-step process that is prone to random people murdering your bot and stealing its inventory when you aren't at the PC. This just seems like a laughably miniscule concern to me.

Edited by goose

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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On 5/18/2017 at 2:01 PM, jetah said:

It hasn't stopped other games from having them. WoW, FFXIV and others still have bots. The only games I haven't seen or heard of bots are ones with huge amounts of bind on pickup gear and item.

PK'ers want gear. They can buy materials to have their crafter make it.

I don't see out of campaign needs being high but I do see in campaign needs being high. So long as bots are in the campaigns then they will sell stuff. There will be some campaigns that have factions, I assume you can't murder same faction bots.

The reason being those games are easy to farm gold inside of and turn around the transactions into profit.

You literally just have to create an account and start farming stuff, selling it right away.

In Crowfall, the only things easy to sell will be accounts.

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5 hours ago, goose said:

In fairness, the reason that WoW and FF14 have such a proliferance of bots is twofold. One, there is no risk involved in botting beyond the potential for an account ban, which is in absolutely no way true for Crowfall because of the PvP rules. Two, there is an easy way to monetize the results of farming in most MMOs: gold.

There's no gold in Crowfall, and there are no NPCs and there is no anonymous market. Eventually, the bots will have to exchange their harvested goods with an actual human being in one fashion or another before they can monetize their bot. That adds an entire secondary step in the middle of the normal farming process that is probably enough to prevent it on its own.

There might be a secondary market of goods sold for real-world money eventually, but I sincerely doubt that automating it will ever be worth the cost it would run to be efficient.

Edit: Honestly, the lack of safe zones is probably going to be the big deterrent. No matter how complicated the developers make it to monetize your product after farming it, the real bottleneck will be the fact that it's a slow, complicated, multi-step process that is prone to random people murdering your bot and stealing its inventory when you aren't at the PC. This just seems like a laughably miniscule concern to me.

WoW does have pvp servers which allow the bots to be killed. cross realm 'tech' allows more eyes to see the bots, more people reporting them. Although blizzard does have ban waves, it could take 6 months before they're banned.

RMT companies have people that do the actual gold transfer. I suspect it'll be the same in CF too. The could have it setup so that the harvesters are bots and the crafters are 'aren't'.  I fully expect to see spam for everything that isn't bound, which is everything.

it's possible, we the community, could kill the bots enough that it isn't a problem for us but is a problem for them.

5 hours ago, CarlosDanger said:

The reason being those games are easy to farm gold inside of and turn around the transactions into profit.

You literally just have to create an account and start farming stuff, selling it right away.

In Crowfall, the only things easy to sell will be accounts.

i suspect accounts will be their best money makers but it will take time to get a product out, who wants a 24h account trained?  I can see in 6-12 months those accounts being valuable. which is one reason i suggest ACE be the market to trade them. This way is their system is used, they're getting a cut and could investigate the account prior to the sale. I know it's not a scam if the seller is wanting to use ACE as the middleman.

i also see raw materials being valuable. i suspect the bot companies would have people that hold the materials in case the bots are reported and banned. it could be in safes, forts, etc.


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On 18/5/2017 at 8:55 PM, Kolazar said:

I like your ideas on this. but in the past banning shows no results without some sort of investment in the bot aside from creation time (the 50$ dollar investment @Blazzen). And people sleep or go have fun doing other things ( at some point go offline) so murdering group squads would prove ineffective during those hours. The campaigns would create a challenge depending on how many severs wide the campaigns are. overall I'm not trying to shoot down everyone ideas I just want this not to be a problem before it becomes one. Because once it is a problem it's far far far too late.

well first of, ACE cant really tell their exact plans, because if they do they make it easier for the botters to find a way around it.

secondly, yes banning is normally not a problem in other games, because you can go out and farm right away, but a new bot account will be VERY inefficient, one player that played for just a month if not for years, will in a few hours get what a new bot account would get in days if not weeks, and they would also need crafting bots as well to make the tools so they can harvest at all, and if those get banned well they have to train those up again from the ground meaning they make very inefficient tool then with the replacement, so yeah I dont see bots being a huge problem if it being there at all

20 hours ago, jetah said:

WoW does have pvp servers which allow the bots to be killed. cross realm 'tech' allows more eyes to see the bots, more people reporting them. Although blizzard does have ban waves, it could take 6 months before they're banned.

RMT companies have people that do the actual gold transfer. I suspect it'll be the same in CF too. The could have it setup so that the harvesters are bots and the crafters are 'aren't'.  I fully expect to see spam for everything that isn't bound, which is everything.

it's possible, we the community, could kill the bots enough that it isn't a problem for us but is a problem for them.

i suspect accounts will be their best money makers but it will take time to get a product out, who wants a 24h account trained?  I can see in 6-12 months those accounts being valuable. which is one reason i suggest ACE be the market to trade them. This way is their system is used, they're getting a cut and could investigate the account prior to the sale. I know it's not a scam if the seller is wanting to use ACE as the middleman.

i also see raw materials being valuable. i suspect the bot companies would have people that hold the materials in case the bots are reported and banned. it could be in safes, forts, etc.

the thing is nowhere is completely safe, we as players if we get suspicious a bot is in some fort, we can siege it, kill the bot and take all its loot if we want, and well a storage bot like that I am sure ace can track down if one "player" keep standing in one spot and got a lots of things supplied from the bots they now banned, and that way be able to ban the storage bots too

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3 hours ago, Gummiel said:

well first of, ACE cant really tell their exact plans, because if they do they make it easier for the botters to find a way around it.

secondly, yes banning is normally not a problem in other games, because you can go out and farm right away, but a new bot account will be VERY inefficient, one player that played for just a month if not for years, will in a few hours get what a new bot account would get in days if not weeks, and they would also need crafting bots as well to make the tools so they can harvest at all, and if those get banned well they have to train those up again from the ground meaning they make very inefficient tool then with the replacement, so yeah I dont see bots being a huge problem if it being there at all

the thing is nowhere is completely safe, we as players if we get suspicious a bot is in some fort, we can siege it, kill the bot and take all its loot if we want, and well a storage bot like that I am sure ace can track down if one "player" keep standing in one spot and got a lots of things supplied from the bots they now banned, and that way be able to ban the storage bots too

I just want to point out that Eve Online had bots too. I'm not sure if they still do but I remember them crashing the ore prices hard.

If ACE can ban their chain then it won't be a problem.

Edited by jetah

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Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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As others have stated this will likely happen...

 

Step 1: Find roving bands of farming bots.

Step 2: Sit one of your stealthers or scouts on them as the rest of group goes to farm/xp grind/murder players etc.

Step 3: come back in an hour and kill the bots to take said goods then wait for them to res and come back.

Step 4: repeat.

 

But seriously as others have said having no safe zones and a 50 dollar buy in should be enough in themselves, but we should have a better idea closer to beta. I would assume if people are going to try and bot they probably bought some cheap beta accounts that I think were going for like 25 during the KS to test their code and get it working. Not only hopefully can we ban most of them then, we can also see where and what causes them the most trouble to pass on to the devs to help beef up those walls.


"He's like Batman except without the moral compass" ~Juror during first innocent verdict 

 

Ghost's of War, PvP gaming community founded 2002

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5 hours ago, Yumx said:

Isnt it also pretty hard to create a bot for this game since you have to aim at everything? 

Nah that part easy if you know what you doing, been plenty of bots in other full action combat games

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