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Dondagora

Illusionist should have Illusions, not Self-Buffs

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I feel that the Illusionist does not fulfill the role one might expect from a master of misdirection. Currently the Illusionist has three powers: self-buff damage, anti-stealth reveal, and self-buff damage passive. The powers themselves aren't bad... but don't quite fit the theme of "Illusionist". We could put these powers on an "Enchanter" and it would fit better.

I bring this discussion up because of another Discipline: Banshee. We're all amazed, and intimidated, by Banshee's Ghost Army. It's truly amazing. But it also shows us what kind of tech these disciplines can hold. Thusly, I would like to petition for Illusionist to inherit more "Illusion-like powers". For instance:

  • Create a clone of one's self. Will attack with basic attacks and inherently does no damage. This clone will reflect damage done to it onto every nearby enemy. Has roughly half the health of the original.
  • Song: Pulse 2 seconds of AoE invisibility every 3 seconds for 15 seconds. 
  • Create a clone with no collision besides you. This clone will follow wherever you go and Blind any enemy which passes through it. Does no damage inherently and will copy movements and powers. Lasts 10 Seconds.
    • Alternative, use a targeting AoE to create a clone at any potential surface. It will check, of course, to see if anything with collision is above it, including players. If so, it will not create the clone as to prevent clones being made inside walls or other stupid things like that. Same mechanism as before, Blinding enemies which pass through.
    • Combo into "Swap", which simply blinks the player to the clone's position and vice versa. There is no animation for this combo, thus it is difficult to tell when it happens. Lasts 5 seconds after swapping.
  • Passive: Illusive Edge: Melee attacks have +1 range to them. Makes it easy to misread the Illusionist's striking distance.

This is all to say, I believe that thematically the Illusionist should revolve around misleading and misdirection. Showing the opponent a lie and punishing them for falling for it. The current iteration is not very "Illusion"-like at all, fitting more into the theme of "Enchanter".

Edit: I feel illusions, like clones and such, should be able to be dispelled by enemies by using things like Shadow Sight or anti-stealth. These are essentially Perception checks, which I find it would thematically counter illusions as it does stealth.

Thoughts on this? It isn't quite a criticism of the mechanics of the discipline, but more so of the upholding of the theme it is titular to.

Edited by Dondagora

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You have a good point as buffs (with the exception of some sort of Dodge) are not typically illusion.  The reveal hidden however is illusion. 

I would think a Blind power, the current reveal and some sort of dodge mechanic would fall into "traditional" illusion categories.  

I also agree that the buffs would be more in line with the Enchanter (Transmutation not Enchantment).

good catch!

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19 hours ago, Mr. Kurtz said:

You have a good point as buffs (with the exception of some sort of Dodge) are not typically illusion.  The reveal hidden however is illusion. 

I would think a Blind power, the current reveal and some sort of dodge mechanic would fall into "traditional" illusion categories.  

I also agree that the buffs would be more in line with the Enchanter (Transmutation not Enchantment).

good catch!

Indeed. More so, based on what we've seen of other Disciplines, ACE has the tech to do things like clones, thus I'd like to see more illusion-themed powers instead of just scrapping the name.

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I agree that the implied themes of "smoke and mirrors" and misdirection aren't really delivered on in the "Illusionist" discipline - and I really like the idea you had of making a clone and being able to swap places with them. The most misleading thing about the Disc is it's name :lol: but that's easily changed, so there's room for ACE to make a more "deceptive" Discipline, and they can just swap the names if they see fit!

Edited by Xarrayne

:^)

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Alternately, they could rename this discipline Enchanter, rename the skills to make them fit the new theme (magic weapon or infravision or other such cliche names), and make a whole new discipline that matches up with your thoroughly valid point about Illusionists and this not seeming like them. After all, these are only the first pass at the first disciplines. :D


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I agree that an Illusionist discipline should be about utilizing illusions and not a simple buff mechanic. The name got my hopes up, and then were dashed when reading the actual powers, so it should be renamed or changed. They should look to the Guild Wars Mesmer and Everquest Enchanter for ideas on how to handle major disciplines revolving around illusions.

Edited by frozenshadow

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Ah, to add onto the idea, I'll add another thing to the post: Illusions such as clones and the like should be capable of being dispelled similarly to stealth. If one makes a high enough Perception check, they can see through the illusion and cancel it out. Making things like Shadow Sight more useable than just against stealth would certainly be interesting, I feel.

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1 hour ago, Kraahk said:

How about a compromise? An illusionist discipline that just creates the illusion of getting a buff. 'Hey, the buff don't work!' - 'Derp, gotcha, mwahaha.' :ph34r:

so exactly how "reveal shadows"' shadow sight "works" now then? :P

 

 

Edited by Tinnis

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57 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

so exactly how "reveal shadows"' shadow sight "works" now then? :P

More or less. But you should have said 'it works' to make the illusion perfect. It doesn't work if you say it doesn't work. Self fulfilling prophecy and such, soddasay.


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4 hours ago, Voodoll said:

I hope they don't had illusions. It just adds so much cluster and becomes nightmarish when in big pvp fights. Let's just rename it to enchanter 

This is a valid concern. Thus, I believe illusions must be done carefully to not have too much spammable cluster, and be no more of a visual hindrance than, say, Ghost Army from Banshee. Perhaps lock Illusion powers behind long cooldowns?

And while I have no problem with giving the current set of Illusionist's powers to another Discipline, I'd still like to see a true "Illusionist" Discipline in the game.

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22 hours ago, Dondagora said:

This is a valid concern. Thus, I believe illusions must be done carefully to not have too much spammable cluster, and be no more of a visual hindrance than, say, Ghost Army from Banshee. Perhaps lock Illusion powers behind long cooldowns?

And while I have no problem with giving the current set of Illusionist's powers to another Discipline, I'd still like to see a true "Illusionist" Discipline in the game.

Long cds could be a solution or limit illusions to one clone? A Leblanc type ability from League of legends triggered at low Health which is more defensive than offensive could do.

Albeit it will limit the illusionist fantasy. 

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1 hour ago, Voodoll said:

Long cds could be a solution or limit illusions to one clone? A Leblanc type ability from League of legends triggered at low Health which is more defensive than offensive could do.

Albeit it will limit the illusionist fantasy. 

More so, it will limit the spammability of clones. As disciplines have about 3~4 Powers, and say 2~3 of those powers could produce a clone, and we put the CD to 60 seconds per power, we can limit clones to around 1~2 every 20~30 seconds. Or, if someone uses them all at once, 2~3 every 60 seconds or so. Either way, it prevents them from becoming abusively visual cancer.

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7 minutes ago, makkon said:

mechanic already ingame. all they need - FX effect. I think it will be in future. dont see any problem here

You can't take for granted that it was already in the plans. You should always voice concerns, issues, or desires so that you can be sure the Devs at least have considered the thought, since we can't possibly be 100% certain of what the Devs are thinking or not.

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1 minute ago, Dondagora said:

You can't take for granted that it was already in the plans. You should always voice concerns, issues, or desires so that you can be sure the Devs at least have considered the thought, since we can't possibly be 100% certain of what the Devs are thinking or not.

I agree but actually for me It is obvious. most of runes effects have no visual FX atm. also, they ninja remake alot of skill animation while developing. no need to promise here. if there was no animation or nice FX effects, not testers will whine here but players =)


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2 minutes ago, makkon said:

I agree but actually for me It is obvious. most of runes effects have no visual FX atm. also, they ninja remake alot of skill animation while developing. no need to promise here. if there was no animation or nice FX effects, not testers will whine here but players =)

Sure, but the current Illusionist's abilities have nothing to do with illusions, FX or no FX. Besides, perhaps, Shadow Sight, but even then seems more anti-deception than illusionist-y. I don't understand how FX would make the current iteration of Illusionist would change that it lacks illusions.

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