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If there won't be primary healers I doubt there will be primary tanks. Just tankier characters. What is their role?

 

In group PvP it's extremely valuable to have people on your side that can engage the enemy in melee. While the ranged DPSers and ranged support are optimally low survivability high damage/support output characters frontline fighters are going to want to be able to take hits.

 

That is the role of a "tank" in PvP. Being the people who will push the enemy or repel enemy melee pushes.

 

Giving up a huge portion of your DPS or support to be and uber tank like many players opt to do in trinity based games is a bad idea but it's an equally bad idea to attempt playing a front liner without giving up anythinf for some more survivability.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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This is what we did on Warhammer Online. It was a pretty great way of making tanks actually tank in pvp. There are other options too of course, but this is a totally viable idea.  

I can tell you one. In nearly every MOBA I played they gave a tank CC abilities, like mass stun or so. This is why a tank annoying. Goes in, stuns the ppl. ranged does the job. Do it in a pair, like 1

I'm going to use some loose definitions here to show some possibilities for "tank" characters from Dota games, as some of these ideas could be adapted or used to develop ways to make tank-like charact

I've enjoyed playing around with tank builds.

 

I've managed to tweak a couple of tanks in different games to do super offense. However, they can become glass cannons too, when compromised in this manner. So unless a very high damage output is achievable in CF, then offense probably won't be viable.

 

Yes, I agree that with smaller heals that most of the archetypes will be designed to be more self sufficent. 

Edited by ozzie mozzie
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Now, they don't explicitly say, not aggression control, but there are really only 2 things that make the trinity system, and the primary thing is Aggression Control. Healing has been around in RPGs for generations before MMOs and trinitys were a benchmark.

 

Beyond it being PvP centric, as they said, no PvP prioritized game relies on Provokes, the few that have them are super marginalized and expressly optional.

 

This game will have PvE, so it's quite possible that there will be taunt/detaunt mechanics.  If that's the case, I would certainly like to see all my skills available in all game modes, PvE and PvP.

 

You keep referring to Aggression Control, but that is a PvE mechanic.  You can't control another player's aggression.  I can't force another player to attack me, even if I hit them with my taunt skill.  Which is why the Warhammer method of applying a debuff in PvP was so fantastic.  Now that enemy player had to make a choice.  And it allowed the tank to provide damage mitigation to his allies.

 

In a game with limited healing options, I would greatly appreciate forms of damage mitigation.

 

Tank PvP is best PvP

 

Proof = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqhKkyRvgjA

 

That music brought a tear to my eye.

 

Sorry you turned into a two-bit carebear whose feelings get hurt over forum banter.

 

 

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Well i think this will be like UO,SB and especially darkfall where there might be tanky classes but its not like a DK in WoW that can survive for days.. its just they use heavier armor and might have good passives.. i think that tanks in this game wont be super OP when it comes to being a meat shield for their team.. 

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Meh, in a game where all skills are aimed and collision exist... tanks have their reason to be...

 

1 of the very fun game where almost everything is aimed and so on is Smite... It just works... The fact that the tank is simply in your way to easier targets makes it work.

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My SB tanks were beasts, but not really very tanky.  My Warhammer tank was a blast to play.  They did it well.  My Pandora tank was the exact opposite of my SB tank.  It very seldom ever died, but it couldnt kill ****.   I could not even level it without help.

 

I hope Crows tanks are closer to the War version.

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This is what we did on Warhammer Online. It was a pretty great way of making tanks actually tank in pvp. There are other options too of course, but this is a totally viable idea.  

 

And I thought it worked really well there.  Though you do need to make it more obvious when you're "taunted" who the instigator is.

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This game will have PvE, so it's quite possible that there will be taunt/detaunt mechanics.  If that's the case, I would certainly like to see all my skills available in all game modes, PvE and PvP.

 

You keep referring to Aggression Control, but that is a PvE mechanic.  You can't control another player's aggression.  I can't force another player to attack me, even if I hit them with my taunt skill.  Which is why the Warhammer method of applying a debuff in PvP was so fantastic.  Now that enemy player had to make a choice.  And it allowed the tank to provide damage mitigation to his allies.

 

In a game with limited healing options, I would greatly appreciate forms of damage mitigation.

 

 

That music brought a tear to my eye.

 

I keep hearing this, but it's backwards, you flatly don't need an aggression control mechanic in PvE, that's the point, use the tools you use in PvP for PvE, design PvE foes to fight in group vs group, or solo, just like you would in PvP. The original Guild Wars figured this out a long time ago, you don't have to design your PvE around the trinity, and in fact, it is 100 fold better for it, you have open battle and interesting variation in foe composition when you design your PvE to be as deep and interesting as PvP with the PvP mechanics.

 

Please people, stop saying theirs no aggression control in PvP than turn right back around and say, lets have aggression control for PvE and than alter those same skills to do something artificial in PvP... your talking in circles, just no aggression control, PvE without it...

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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I'm going to use some loose definitions here to show some possibilities for "tank" characters from Dota games, as some of these ideas could be adapted or used to develop ways to make tank-like characters interesting to play in Crowfall.

 

Axe - Dota 2 : http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Axe

 

Axe is an interesting take on the "tank" archetype, but its important to remember in Dota2 there are no real "tanks" just heroes who are survivable but forced to do damage in close range.

 

Axe has the ability to taunt heroes, units, summons and creeps in an area around him, forcing them to do nothing but attack him for up to 3.2 seconds. Every time Axe is attacked he has a 20% PRD adjusted chance to spin, which has a cooldown of 0.3 seconds, to spin in an aoe doing damage to enemies in that area about the size of the taunt range. It also gives him 40 armour, which is about 240% more physEHP assuming he had no armour before, for the duration of the taunt. You can also buy an item called "blademail" which reflects 100% of damage done to you for 4.5 seconds, so if people try to save their allies who are taunted you can use the Blademail item to do damage to not only the taunted people attacking you on top of the spin damage, but to anyone who tries to use nukes/crowdcontrol spells with a damage component.

 

Thus he effectively does damage by forcing people to attack him.

 

 

 

How this could be adapted for Crowfall.

 

Obviously, in an action combat game, forcing people to lose control of their characters for an extended period of time is frustrating - particularly taunts and fears. Perhaps instead of forcing a player to attack them, a similar ability could "lock" their character facing to the person who used the taunt for a short duration. This would mean they have a choice of backing up and not attacking, and if the game has different movement speed and inertia for characters would effectively amount to a slow as they back/side pedal away. Or they could just go ham on the guy taunting them.

 

Assuming there is also bonus damage for flanking, this would mean if someone had tried to dive past the player using the taunt their fleshy back would be exposed to the squishy/high DPS characters they had been trying to get to. They could circle strafe and dodge around in order to try avoid taking too much damage while they are forced to face the character taunting them but they're not completely powerless. 

 

Viper - Dota 2 - http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Viper

 

Viper has a couple interesting properties as a hero. He is hard to run away from, very tanky and hard to chase without CC.

 

His poison attack slows movement, attackspeed and does damage over time. Switching targets can apply the debuff to multiple people.

Doing damage to him applies another unique stack of poison that slows movement, attackspeed and does damage over time. He also has higher innate resistance to magic.

His Viper strike is a huge single target damage over time nuke that slows movementspeed and attack speed dramatically.

He also does extra damage the lower your health is, meaning you have to be careful with how low your health is, engage him when you're at half health while being dependant on your attacks and movement speed and he will turn you into a glowing pile of acid and piss.

 

How this could be applied to Crowfall.

 

Another tank ability/character identity could be some sort of corrupted poison lord. His damage would be quite low, but people he damages and is damaged by would suffer penalties like slower movement speed and damage over time. Obviously he is a tank, so you want to try and get past him to hurt the squishies, but he has the tools to make any attempt to get past him harder to accomplish, and the longer he is in a fight the damage from his damage over time begins to become un-ignorable. A sort of walking slow-attrition damage tank. Capable of taking a punishment with a fairly low, but if not dealt with will run down stragglers and people routing with their slows and damage over time. The character could also take less damage from AOE abilities while applying a DoT to every caster in range who damaged him with one. Sort of a sponge for high impact spells.

 

Bristleback - Dota2 - http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Bristleback

 

Bristleback has two interesting spells that are applicable, the skill that is his namesake: Bristleback reduces all damage he takes from the sides and the back by a percentage, meaning he is at his most vulnerable when charging into fights, or when stunned facing enemies. Additionally, every certain amount of damage he takes to the sides or back triggers his other relevant spell Quill Spray.

His other spell is Quill Spray, which launches spines in a small AOE doing flat damage and applying a debuff. Every time you are hit with quill spray the debuff counter goes up, and so too does the damage you take from quill spray. Long engagements are this guys friend.

 

How this could apply to crowfall.

 

I'm not entirely sure, but some kind of way to do stacking aoe damage forcing people to run away from you[friend and foe] could be interesting. Disruptive and survivable with relatively low dps - as long as you run away from where he is. Stand still and the spines start to dig deeper.

 

 

There is obviously the staple "Return" skill that reflects damage to people who hurt you.

A "Cover" spell, where you sacrifice some of your own survivability to increase the survivability of an ally, or if mis-aimed a foe!

A "Tether" spell, where as long as you maintain unbroken sight of an ally you will share your regeneration and healing effects, but also split the damage you both take.

A "Spiked Carapace" spell, where if you see a particularly nasty aoe/nuke flying your way you could activate it and dive in front of the spell, reflecting 100% of the damage and silencing/stunning the caster for a short duration

You could also give tanks ways to increase their hitbox, like a buff that increased the scale of their character by 10-30% meaning they effectively take up more room on the screen and use their bodies to block projectiles.

 

Theres lots of ways to make tanks interesting to play outside the trinity system, they are Utility/DPS, heres a chart to sort of illustrate the "Crowfall Trinity" as best i can as I see it at the moment. The Healing part has been truncated heavily and is more of a support category.

 

jDJzhdU.png

 

That was longer than intended.

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I'm going to use some loose definitions here to show some possibilities for "tank" characters from Dota games, as some of these ideas could be adapted or used to develop ways to make tank-like characters interesting to play in Crowfall.

 

Axe - Dota 2 : http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Axe

 

Axe is an interesting take on the "tank" archetype, but its important to remember in Dota2 there are no real "tanks" just heroes who are survivable but forced to do damage in close range.

 

Axe has the ability to taunt heroes, units, summons and creeps in an area around him, forcing them to do nothing but attack him for up to 3.2 seconds. Every time Axe is attacked he has a 20% PRD adjusted chance to spin, which has a cooldown of 0.3 seconds, to spin in an aoe doing damage to enemies in that area about the size of the taunt range. It also gives him 40 armour, which is about 240% more physEHP assuming he had no armour before, for the duration of the taunt. You can also buy an item called "blademail" which reflects 100% of damage done to you for 4.5 seconds, so if people try to save their allies who are taunted you can use the Blademail item to do damage to not only the taunted people attacking you on top of the spin damage, but to anyone who tries to use nukes/crowdcontrol spells with a damage component.

 

Thus he effectively does damage by forcing people to attack him.

 

 

 

How this could be adapted for Crowfall.

 

Obviously, in an action combat game, forcing people to lose control of their characters for an extended period of time is frustrating - particularly taunts and fears. Perhaps instead of forcing a player to attack them, a similar ability could "lock" their character facing to the person who used the taunt for a short duration. This would mean they have a choice of backing up and not attacking, and if the game has different movement speed and inertia for characters would effectively amount to a slow as they back/side pedal away. Or they could just go ham on the guy taunting them.

 

Assuming there is also bonus damage for flanking, this would mean if someone had tried to dive past the player using the taunt their fleshy back would be exposed to the squishy/high DPS characters they had been trying to get to. They could circle strafe and dodge around in order to try avoid taking too much damage while they are forced to face the character taunting them but they're not completely powerless. 

 

Viper - Dota 2 - http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Viper

 

Viper has a couple interesting properties as a hero. He is hard to run away from, very tanky and hard to chase without CC.

 

His poison attack slows movement, attackspeed and does damage over time. Switching targets can apply the debuff to multiple people.

Doing damage to him applies another unique stack of poison that slows movement, attackspeed and does damage over time. He also has higher innate resistance to magic.

His Viper strike is a huge single target damage over time nuke that slows movementspeed and attack speed dramatically.

He also does extra damage the lower your health is, meaning you have to be careful with how low your health is, engage him when you're at half health while being dependant on your attacks and movement speed and he will turn you into a glowing pile of acid and piss.

 

How this could be applied to Crowfall.

 

Another tank ability/character identity could be some sort of corrupted poison lord. His damage would be quite low, but people he damages and is damaged by would suffer penalties like slower movement speed and damage over time. Obviously he is a tank, so you want to try and get past him to hurt the squishies, but he has the tools to make any attempt to get past him harder to accomplish, and the longer he is in a fight the damage from his damage over time begins to become un-ignorable. A sort of walking slow-attrition damage tank. Capable of taking a punishment with a fairly low, but if not dealt with will run down stragglers and people routing with their slows and damage over time. The character could also take less damage from AOE abilities while applying a DoT to every caster in range who damaged him with one. Sort of a sponge for high impact spells.

 

Bristleback - Dota2 - http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Bristleback

 

Bristleback has two interesting spells that are applicable, the skill that is his namesake: Bristleback reduces all damage he takes from the sides and the back by a percentage, meaning he is at his most vulnerable when charging into fights, or when stunned facing enemies. Additionally, every certain amount of damage he takes to the sides or back triggers his other relevant spell Quill Spray.

His other spell is Quill Spray, which launches spines in a small AOE doing flat damage and applying a debuff. Every time you are hit with quill spray the debuff counter goes up, and so too does the damage you take from quill spray. Long engagements are this guys friend.

 

How this could apply to crowfall.

 

I'm not entirely sure, but some kind of way to do stacking aoe damage forcing people to run away from you[friend and foe] could be interesting. Disruptive and survivable with relatively low dps - as long as you run away from where he is. Stand still and the spines start to dig deeper.

 

 

There is obviously the staple "Return" skill that reflects damage to people who hurt you.

A "Cover" spell, where you sacrifice some of your own survivability to increase the survivability of an ally, or if mis-aimed a foe!

A "Tether" spell, where as long as you maintain unbroken sight of an ally you will share your regeneration and healing effects, but also split the damage you both take.

A "Spiked Carapace" spell, where if you see a particularly nasty aoe/nuke flying your way you could activate it and dive in front of the spell, reflecting 100% of the damage and silencing/stunning the caster for a short duration

You could also give tanks ways to increase their hitbox, like a buff that increased the scale of their character by 10-30% meaning they effectively take up more room on the screen and use their bodies to block projectiles.

 

Theres lots of ways to make tanks interesting to play outside the trinity system, they are Utility/DPS, heres a chart to sort of illustrate the "Crowfall Trinity" as best i can as I see it at the moment. The Healing part has been truncated heavily and is more of a support category.

 

jDJzhdU.png

 

That was longer than intended.

Did you draw those in paint?  You could have just Googled a chart creator.

 

Overall it looks accurate though, I still disagree with the decision to limit healing but maybe the built in life steal mechanic is a way to reward healing for skill and dmg. 

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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This is what we did on Warhammer Online. It was a pretty great way of making tanks actually tank in pvp. There are other options too of course, but this is a totally viable idea.  

I love playing characters that can do that.

12Oe7ot.png

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I think the problem with Potatos examples is that these are pulled directly from an Isometric game, where moving and attacking your opponents are done automatically, and automatic effects are more suitable, that and effects that work with automatic behaviors. WOW, I've been writing too much fantasy, every time I write automatic I get automagic....

 

In a game where collision, manual movement and manual attack direction, manual projectile fire and friendly fire all exist together, things like taunt, or automatic (matic matic matic!) spin attacks don't belong. What we should be looking at for reference is other action oriented games, and not just MMOs, RPGs and the like. Look at Dynasty Warrior, Legend of Zelda, Shooting games, and Smite.

 

Even with Smite, the few taunts that apply are not going to fit in a large battlefield setting, the AoE CC effects employed by tanks in Smite have huge implications in a game with massive battles, momentum, inertia, and friendly fire. In a game like a Shooter, nobody wants to be taunted or locked up, they'd rather be thrown by an explosion or inhibited with smoke and flash bangs. This is something Smite adopted with Ra using a flash in one of his skills.

 

The discussion shouldn't be about how the tank is going to defend, it should be about how players will react defensively and offensively, with every single Archetype. Strategy games, especially ones where your only controlling one unit, are extremely boring if your role pigeon holes you into a specific strategy before you even enter the battle. The best part about Strategy games... is not strategy... it's Tactics.

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Warhammer Online is probably the only game where I enjoyed playing a tank (KotBS and Ironbreaker).  I would often run naked thru Tier 1 PvP scenarios in order to collect all the achievements.  Even with no gear the tank was hard to take down at those low levels.

 

I loved how the taunt (and detaunt) mechanic worked in PvP.

 

I totally agree. I played a Black Orc, though at release, they were pretty OP...

 

I felt like I could tank, but also be viable in PvP, and not just be a big negligible meatshield.

Edited by rs_navlaan

 EOWWuhQ.png 
 

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I think the problem with Potatos examples is that these are pulled directly from an Isometric game, where moving and attacking your opponents are done automatically, and automatic effects are more suitable, that and effects that work with automatic behaviors. WOW, I've been writing too much fantasy, every time I write automatic I get automagic....

 

In a game where collision, manual movement and manual attack direction, manual projectile fire and friendly fire all exist together, things like taunt, or automatic (matic matic matic!) spin attacks don't belong. What we should be looking at for reference is other action oriented games, and not just MMOs, RPGs and the like. Look at Dynasty Warrior, Legend of Zelda, Shooting games, and Smite.

 

Even with Smite, the few taunts that apply are not going to fit in a large battlefield setting, the AoE CC effects employed by tanks in Smite have huge implications in a game with massive battles, momentum, inertia, and friendly fire. In a game like a Shooter, nobody wants to be taunted or locked up, they'd rather be thrown by an explosion or inhibited with smoke and flash bangs. This is something Smite adopted with Ra using a flash in one of his skills.

 

The discussion shouldn't be about how the tank is going to defend, it should be about how players will react defensively and offensively, with every single Archetype. Strategy games, especially ones where your only controlling one unit, are extremely boring if your role pigeon holes you into a specific strategy before you even enter the battle. The best part about Strategy games... is not strategy... it's Tactics.

 

I think I went over pretty clearly how these examples could be adapted for a 3d action game. The mechanics do not function exactly the same as an isometric game, but the essence of their gameplay impact is similar with more counterplay available. Obviously my post was not an exhaustive list on how tanks could play in a game like Crowfall, it was merely a way to explain to people in the thread how tanks could be useful in combat without going the rout of an over-abundance of crowd control[Long Crowd control stacking works in 5v5 games because of their high cooldowns and the natural limitations of the amount of players in a game who can have those crow control abilities] which would cause some un-fun stuff for large scale pvp where battles would consists of groups chainstunning one guy at a time etc.

 

I don't think I made any reference to spin attacks, although I do disagree, many many many action combat games have some form of AOE centered on the player and to dismiss a possible mechanic for gameplay diversity on the false assumption that it doesn't belong would just diminish skill and class diversity. I'm not saying it should be in, but that it shouldn't be discarded out of hand.

 

I agree with what you say, while Stuns and long duration crowd control work in more strategic gameplay like Dota/RPG/Traditional MMO style games in an action game with collision etc they should be rather limited, especially when the possibility of large groups of players engaging are possible. Crowd control should be effective, but it should not cripple a player for an extended duration, especially if the Time-To-Kill will be quite low. The higher the TTK the longer crowd control can be without feeling frustrating, the lower the TTK crowd control needs to be dialed back and softer - blinds/smoke/slows/pushes/pulls etcetera.

 

The discussion isn't really about what you say it is, it is about how Tanks can be fun/viable in a combat setting in a game where traditional go-to RPG mechanics will only seek to confound and frustrate players.

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