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daegog

Gathering/Crafting Dedicated accounts, could RUIN the game..

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Consider for a moment how the very FIRST Crowfall Campaign will be.

EVERYONE has a very low skill level (assuming of course the time between game launch and first campaign launch is very close together).


Even if highly organized guilds (with several dedicated crafter/gathering accounts) all take control of the premium resource locations, it will not matter all that much because their crafters skill levels will all be very low.  What they can gather and produce will simply not be much better than anyone else's gear/vessels.

It will be glorious in its chaos, the GENERAL fairness of the fights (numbers aside), and general exploration of the game systems.

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Fast Forward 3-6 months, post campaign.  The those dedicated gather/crafter are now QUITE skilled (and will only get better).  At the outset of the next campaign, even if they cannot bring a SINGLE item to the new war zone, they will NOW have the ability to gather premium materials from day 1.  These mats have to be located in the new zone of course, but for the more organized guilds, will this really be that big a problem?

In the first week of the new campaign, gear will be crafted at a much higher level with better mats, those folks who were in the game from launch will understand objectives, fortifications and most game mechanics a great deal better.


The fights will no longer be anywhere near fair, those top guilds will gleefully demolish and terrorize smaller guilds gathering attempts.  This trend will only get worse as the game gets older and those huge guilds get better at dominion.

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In short, I do not know how to alleviate this problem.  Resetting crafting/gathering skills every single campaign start would mean that those large guilds can only win if they bring better numbers, tactics, and organization instead of it becoming a gear stomp show.  However, i suspect its too late in game design for this to be an option.

I just hope that the guys at ACE see this will be an issue and come up with some work arounds.
 

I am looking forward to the first campaign for Crowfall with great enthusiasm, However, I do not know, if any OTHER campaign will ever be fair or fun.


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I anticipate that ACE will create CWs with "reset" training at some point, if it becomes a big issue. Sort of like a full wipe, but only CW specific (next CW you could have all your training back). 

There are a lot of variables to consider for this, not the least of which is world density (people/size). I also expect multiple strategies to CWs, including accepting defeat beforehand and just harvesting to the max for EKs, dumping everything into the CW to crush others, and in between.

I am not indifferent to these arguments, but I just cannot find enough juice in them. Why exactly should players who have played the game longer not be better off than those who just started? Why won't multiple guilds have dedicated crafters who are actually all together on equal footing (if they chose to be), and organization, size, and strategy still win the day?


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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Taking Project 1999 EQ as an example, guilds have dedicated crafting accounts, dedicated cleric/rez accounts, dedicated buffbot/powerleveling accounts, and so on. Where the passwords are shared between the guild officers for public use and service. I doubt there's anything ACE can do about this. Especially when you just have to passively train it by logging in every so often and queuing things up.

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daegog, I think the solution is quite simple. Something like this, I suggest:

Develop a guild-point system based on kills, tech level etc. and come up after the first season with some divisions. Best 18 Teams continue in 1st Division, the next in 2nd division and so on. Of each Division the 3 best go up, the last 3 go down.

With smaller guilds amount of guilds per Division increases accordingly to have enough Players all time.

Fair play within your Level (you will not be too frustrated), enough ambition to do better next season.

Edited by StefKalisch

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Does it really matter that much? Having extra accounts arent as important as size. Having extra accounts wont make your guild stronger by itself.

I mean yeah having specialized accounts are better than dont having any but it is not that game breaking.

EDIT:

You werent talking about specialized MA? You mean just that older accounts would have advantages over new players?

That is not even a problem! Of course i think ACE should divide players in some kind of league (noobs league and veterans league etc.) but for me it seems like you are complaining of how games work in general.

Edited by BarriaKarl

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11 minutes ago, mctan said:

I anticipate that ACE will create CWs with "reset" training at some point, if it becomes a big issue. Sort of like a full wipe, but only CW specific (next CW you could have all your training back). 

There are a lot of variables to consider for this, not the least of which is world density (people/size). I also expect multiple strategies to CWs, including accepting defeat beforehand and just harvesting to the max for EKs, dumping everything into the CW to crush others, and in between.

I am not indifferent to these arguments, but I just cannot find enough juice in them. Why exactly should players who have played the game longer not be better off than those who just started? Why won't multiple guilds have dedicated crafters who are actually all together on equal footing (if they chose to be), and organization, size, and strategy still win the day?

I suggested having skills reset each CW with a cap on training/allocation maxes, they can somehow integrate this into only specific rulesets (kind of like ladders work in arpgs) while having other CWs for people to use their full training. 

I think there are pros and cons to each.  It will definitely be interesting to see how the meta evolves as people get further in their training, but people have also proven that they love the fresh server/fresh character approach we see in many games.  The idea of starting anew and writing a new story.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Not taking items in still limits the resources that can be gathered. A cobblestone pick isn't going to be able to harvest a tier 10 node even if the crow can.

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2 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

I suggested having skills reset each CW with a cap on training/allocation maxes, they can somehow integrate this into only specific rulesets (kind of like ladders work in arpgs) while having other CWs for people to use their full training. 

I think there are pros and cons to each.  It will definitely be interesting to see how the meta evolves as people get further in their training, but people have also proven that they love the fresh server/fresh character approach we see in many games.  The idea of starting anew and writing a new story.

Yeah, I remember. I thought it was a good idea, and I still do. I suspect it'll at least find its way into some CWs, if not into the main mechanics. I think it overlays a lot better with points, which also offers a better route to "catch up" - buying points up to the max possible at the time.

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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Sorry but these ideas are just non-starters.

Training crafting skills for weeks/months and resetting that time spent is not only pointless, it's a huge blow to people who ONLY craft.

Yes there are people who will buy 1 account and will ONLY craft.

You're going to have to accept the fact that guilds will use all available tools to get ahead. It is part of the MMO experience and shouldn't be looked at as a negative.

Looking at the long term, all guilds will eventually catch up. You also have to consider that you can buy crafted gear, bypassing the need for dedicated crafters.

Also full loot campaigns... ya this isn't as big an issue as OP is imagining.

Edited by McFats

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On 5/20/2017 at 4:39 PM, VIKINGNAIL said:

Yep but with the intent of the game being to evolve and figure out interesting rulesets, the early rulesets will always be different in how they play than later ones, we will see how ACE deals with this.

I don't think the rulesets will be that crazy (or plentiful). They might experiment a bit in the beginning, but I think the rulesets will be way more tame and logical. You need to have a considerable size population to fill out the campaign world.

Edited by Helix

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I don't really see this as a problem. So, let's assume you're on a dregs server, and it's being dominated by two opposing alliances led by experienced guilds with maxed out crafters etc. You represent a group of friends that are new to the game and just formed a new guild, no year-old crafting and gathering skills to lean on. Yes, it sucks to be you and the experienced guilds will crush you if you oppose them alone. But you have a few options:

  • Ally with one of the leading guilds

This is an obvious and very common solution in Shadowbane; it may not seem intuitive to people who haven't experienced SB's alliance system, but it really does work. The system lets guilds easily make allies of convenience without losing their guild autonomy. Each guild still has a GM, officers, full control over its recruiting, bank, city, all the typical guild stuff - the only change is the allied guilds now show up as friendly. Your guild can leave the alliance at any time, these alliances are made and broken all the time. We don't know the specifics of the win conditions yet, you will probably have to accept a lesser reward in the end for being allied with the winning guild instead of winning yourself, but that's better than nothing.

  • Form a new alliance with other noob guilds

Okay, this is going to be.. more difficult. But good gear isn't that huge of an advantage, if you can gather enough numbers you can crush those veterans who think their epic swords will save them. The odds are against you, but it's not impossible - this isn't like a battleground or arena where you have to have the best gear, the best coordination, the most power packed into a fixed number of people. The diplomatic game will be more important than the crafting game, because you can always just bring more numbers and try to overwhelm the other guy.

  • Go to a faction based server

This is always an option if you just don't have what it takes to compete with or ally with the experienced guilds on the dregs. There's no shame in that, you're a guild of noobs with no training, you'll get there eventually. But for now, why not head to God's Reach? Then you'll probably be competing with a bunch of other low-training guilds (the experienced guilds will be attracted to the dregs for higher rewards and better competition). If there are any maxed out crafters around in God's Reach, some of them will be on your own faction for you to work with. I expect God's Reach will serve as a place for new players to ease into the game, to practice and skill up until they're ready for the dregs. Maybe the dregs just aren't meant for the day 1 noobs, not unless they can find an experienced guild to take them in and support them with gear.

Edited by Avloren

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People will have to join a guild?

People will have to play on Faction worlds and train for a bit before going to Dregs?

New guilds landing on the game can't instantly dominate everybody?

 

I don't see any problems.

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8 hours ago, Avloren said:

I don't really see this as a problem. So, let's assume you're on a dregs server, and it's being dominated by two opposing alliances led by experienced guilds with maxed out crafters etc. You represent a group of friends that are new to the game and just formed a new guild, no year-old crafting and gathering skills to lean on. Yes, it sucks to be you and the experienced guilds will crush you if you oppose them alone. But you have a few options:

  • Ally with one of the leading guilds

This is an obvious and very common solution in Shadowbane; it may not seem intuitive to people who haven't experienced SB's alliance system, but it really does work. The system lets guilds easily make allies of convenience without losing their guild autonomy. Each guild still has a GM, officers, full control over its recruiting, bank, city, all the typical guild stuff - the only change is the allied guilds now show up as friendly. Your guild can leave the alliance at any time, these alliances are made and broken all the time. We don't know the specifics of the win conditions yet, you will probably have to accept a lesser reward in the end for being allied with the winning guild instead of winning yourself, but that's better than nothing.

  • Form a new alliance with other noob guilds

Okay, this is going to be.. more difficult. But good gear isn't that huge of an advantage, if you can gather enough numbers you can crush those veterans who think their epic swords will save them. The odds are against you, but it's not impossible - this isn't like a battleground or arena where you have to have the best gear, the best coordination, the most power packed into a fixed number of people. The diplomatic game will be more important than the crafting game, because you can always just bring more numbers and try to overwhelm the other guy.

  • Go to a faction based server

This is always an option if you just don't have what it takes to compete with or ally with the experienced guilds on the dregs. There's no shame in that, you're a guild of noobs with no training, you'll get there eventually. But for now, why not head to God's Reach? Then you'll probably be competing with a bunch of other low-training guilds (the experienced guilds will be attracted to the dregs for higher rewards and better competition). If there are any maxed out crafters around in God's Reach, some of them will be on your own faction for you to work with. I expect God's Reach will serve as a place for new players to ease into the game, to practice and skill up until they're ready for the dregs. Maybe the dregs just aren't meant for the day 1 noobs, not unless they can find an experienced guild to take them in and support them with gear.

Just look at your options, Ally with a leading guild, you REALLY mean "kiss their ass and hope they help you out"

Form a alliance with other noob guilds "So these noob guilds are all of a sudden, thru some tactical brillance, able to band together and take out vets?"  Are you being serious right now?  Just how big of a zerg are we talking about here?  3X more?  5X more?

Faction based server.. I dont know much about these things, I guess if they are fun or will be fun that might be a decent option, however, I think you forgot what i think is the most LIKELY option, 

Just say "custard this" and leave the game.

This will be a Niche game and will always struggle for a decent sized player base.  For various reasons, I do not think it will have the broad appeal that many other mmo games have, perhaps the notion of full loot is just too harsh on people used to killing a dragon and having a sword forever (or at least until they kill a bigger dragon).

I fully expect that FIRST campaign to be glorious and perhaps worth the price of admission itself, I just am not sold that on the notion that all the rest will be anywhere on the same level of fun.

 

 


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16 minutes ago, daegog said:

Just look at your options, Ally with a leading guild, you REALLY mean "kiss their ass and hope they help you out"

Form a alliance with other noob guilds "So these noob guilds are all of a sudden, thru some tactical brillance, able to band together and take out vets?"  Are you being serious right now?  Just how big of a zerg are we talking about here?  3X more?  5X more?

Faction based server.. I dont know much about these things, I guess if they are fun or will be fun that might be a decent option, however, I think you forgot what i think is the most LIKELY option, 

Just say "custard this" and leave the game.

This will be a Niche game and will always struggle for a decent sized player base.  For various reasons, I do not think it will have the broad appeal that many other mmo games have, perhaps the notion of full loot is just too harsh on people used to killing a dragon and having a sword forever (or at least until they kill a bigger dragon).

I fully expect that FIRST campaign to be glorious and perhaps worth the price of admission itself, I just am not sold that on the notion that all the rest will be anywhere on the same level of fun.

 

 

Dae Im not sure how long youve been playing MMO's but as Crowfall has more and more Shadowbane elements added to it, and since that game was around so long ago Im not sure what many others backgrounds in gaming are but allow me to try and explain Shadowbane's... Shadowbane's politics outside and inside the game added layers onto the pvp game that took the entire thing much deeper... People's actions outside the game on the boards had ramifications in the game. Alliances between both big and small guilds shifted constantly. As the game progressed Shadowbane opened up new clean servers(Which I would guess was the foundation for the idea of campaigns in CF) bitter enemies would ally up for the initial rush and backstab each other later. Your worried about crafting accounts? Shadowbane players had spy alt accounts that had to be completely clean(as you could see prior guild history) to not only collect intel, but I remember activating spies in certain sieges who would run around in the other guild during siege time and actively sabotage defenses and open gates... There is a reason one of JTodd's philosophies in designing this game is that its not for everyone, its for the type of players who like this sort of intrigue and challenge.


"He's like Batman except without the moral compass" ~Juror during first innocent verdict 

 

Ghost's of War, PvP gaming community founded 2002

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Also side note we are also extrapolating how much "elite" gear actually helps... In the testing so far I dont think Ive seen anything from like bottom to mid tier gear compared to the highest tier they have added that would be considered an insurmountable obstacle... Does it help? Of course? Does it help even more on veteran players? Absolutely... But we arent striving for gaming socialism here.


"He's like Batman except without the moral compass" ~Juror during first innocent verdict 

 

Ghost's of War, PvP gaming community founded 2002

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44 minutes ago, daegog said:

Just look at your options, Ally with a leading guild, you REALLY mean "kiss their ass and hope they help you out"

Form a alliance with other noob guilds "So these noob guilds are all of a sudden, thru some tactical brillance, able to band together and take out vets?"  Are you being serious right now?  Just how big of a zerg are we talking about here?  3X more?  5X more?

Faction based server.. I dont know much about these things, I guess if they are fun or will be fun that might be a decent option, however, I think you forgot what i think is the most LIKELY option, 

Just say "custard this" and leave the game.

This will be a Niche game and will always struggle for a decent sized player base.  For various reasons, I do not think it will have the broad appeal that many other mmo games have, perhaps the notion of full loot is just too harsh on people used to killing a dragon and having a sword forever (or at least until they kill a bigger dragon).

I fully expect that FIRST campaign to be glorious and perhaps worth the price of admission itself, I just am not sold that on the notion that all the rest will be anywhere on the same level of fun.

It's a brutal game where not everyone gets to win - that's what makes the victories meaningful. This is not a PvE MMO where everyone gets their participation prize after showing up to wipe on the boss X times until Joey learns to stop standing in the %^&$ing fire. Correct, this may lead to it being a niche game without broad appeal - the creators are aware of this and unconcerned (they don't need or want a million players).

Points is, yes, maybe you do need to "kiss ass" (aka cooperate with people who aren't your friends) to secure a victory. That's how open pvp games work. This will be as true of the first campaign as it will be of the 50th; the only difference is in later campaigns some guilds will have a statistical edge. An edge that can easily be overcome by either getting some veteran allies of your own, or overwhelming them with numbers. If the current pre-alpha is anything to go by, training is not even that much of an edge: 2X numbers will probably be enough, assuming similar player skill and guild organization.

It's kind of like you're complaining that you can't carry your entire team in a MOBA if they insist on feeding. Yeah, that's very true: no matter how good you are you'll need minimally competent teammates to win. It's an inherent limitation/feature of the game mechanics and perhaps it limits the genre's appeal, but those games wouldn't be the same if they didn't require teamwork.

Edit: but I should certainly note, I'm a former Shadowbane player and I'll probably be living on the dregs. It's entirely possible that God's Reach will be a completely different game that appeals to a different sort of player who would disagree with me on everything I've said here. If that's the case, then I welcome it: I'm happy that those players get the game they're looking for, even if it's not a game that appeals to me. Maybe some of them will join me on the dregs eventually, but even if they don't, they're helping to fund the game.

Edited by Avloren

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@daegog  No one knows how anything will be until it is all said and done.  You could be entirely right or completely wrong.  With the availability of 3rd party resources, CW set up and depending on the development of the game I can easily see it going either way.  

A well made white weapon is better than an ok made blue.  Yes vets will always have an advantage but with the direction that combat is headed in as @wargasmo said: a good player with crap gear will always beat a mediocre with great gear.

You're are getting hung up on what could be instead of providing productive feedback for the Dev's to influence what will be.

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1 hour ago, daegog said:

This will be a Niche game and will always struggle for a decent sized player base.  For various reasons, I do not think it will have the broad appeal that many other mmo games have, perhaps the notion of full loot is just too harsh on people used to killing a dragon and having a sword forever (or at least until they kill a bigger dragon).

I fully expect that FIRST campaign to be glorious and perhaps worth the price of admission itself, I just am not sold that on the notion that all the rest will be anywhere on the same level of fun.

I don't think anyone should be surprised at the amount of people you need to fully flesh out a guild in this game. I mean, just look at the skill lines and do the math. I think the biggest obstacle for the games success will be forcing over reliance on other players, not the full loot nature of the game. I know the argument for such a large focus on crafting and harvesting is because the devs think they've been trivialized in other games. What they don't realize is that these things have been trivialized for a REASON. The amount of people who enjoy grinding hours on end gathering and crafting are an extreme minority (which isn't something you can do by yourself), the majority of the people who pick up the game are going to want to go out and kill (also something you can't really do by yourself). Grinding on rocks is hellishly more boring in comparison to camping and fighting over the werewolves in Emain Macha back in DAoC.

So yea, if people quit, it's because they're most likely tired of not really being able to do anything on their own. Why was wow so successful? Because it catered to both the group style of game play and the casual solo game play.

Edited by Helix

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8 minutes ago, Helix said:

I don't think anyone should be surprised at the amount of people you need to fully flesh out a guild in this game. I mean, just look at the skill lines and do the math. I think the biggest obstacle for the games success will be forcing over reliance on other players, not the full loot nature of the game. I know the argument for such a large focus on crafting and harvesting is because the devs think they've been trivialized in other games. What they don't realize is that these things have been trivialized for a REASON. The amount of people who enjoy grinding hours on end gathering and crafting are an extreme minority (which isn't something you can do by yourself), the majority of the people who pick up the game are going to want to go out and kill (also something you can't really do by yourself). Grinding on rocks is hellishly more boring in comparison to camping and fighting over the werewolves in Emain Macha back in DAoC.

So yea, if people quit, it's because they're most likely tired of not really being able to do anything on their own. Why was wow so successful? Because it catered to both the group style of game play and the casual solo game play.

This is also where alliances come into play, not only alliances with other guilds but alliances with merchant guilds who Im sure there will be a few.


"He's like Batman except without the moral compass" ~Juror during first innocent verdict 

 

Ghost's of War, PvP gaming community founded 2002

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