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Kraav

Champion 5.0+ Issues/Changes

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Relentless passive needs to be baked into baseline Champion. Rage decay and starting with zero rage is beyond crippling. My biggest issue is with only x3 passive slots this forces all Champions to use Relentless passive and thus limits customization.

Did Hurlbat CD change with 5.01? I used to be 24 second cooldown, now it is 6 seconds. A welcomed change as it still costs a decent amount of rage to use.

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Relentless really is a must use but i am not sure if making it a racial would be the way to go. If aything i would like if the Devs increased the Passives slots for 4, right now choosing just 3 makes you really have to make some painful choices.

Is the CD of Hurlbat 6 secs in the tooltip info? The CD shown here is 24 secs.

PS: Since this thread is the newest and you are using the Destroyer Disc can you explain to me how the Insanity Power works in game? The tooltip says "Booster your combat prowess increasing your current Health maximum by 17.5 for each point of current rage." but what happens after increasing your Max health? Do you HP also increase? The tootip also doesnt show how long this buff is applied for. Thx i didnt want to create a thread just to ask this...

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I know if at full health it increases your health to whatever the increase is, so if you are at 4000 health your bar will raise to 5000 for example with full health resting at 5k.


Hammers High !!  Master Brewer of the Dwarven Hold Mithril Warhammers

 

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They just fixed Insanity and it is indeed working correctly now. You gain max health based on rage. 

Hurlbat the tooltip still shows 24 seconds but the CD in game has changed for the better.

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Also with discs the champ is in a much better place. I felt comfortable knowing I had to make choices / sacrifices if I wanted relentless. Pretty much having endless rage by default would break this class.


Hammers High !!  Master Brewer of the Dwarven Hold Mithril Warhammers

 

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Most of this is based on 1v1 fights, as that is about all there is right now.  Large group fights could change things a lot.

REND:

Rend is, all bugs aside, a game changer.  Really massive damage (800+ initial damage, 250+ ticks), if you land it.  It also has some really interesting game-play elements.  Because it combos with a melee range Suppress (which is arguably even better), people see you jump and have to either, stay in melee range and eat the Suppress, or try to get out of melee range, thus opening themselves to a potential Rend.  I do wish that I could use it more consistently (and in melee range), but then it couldn't be as strong, so it wouldn't feel as good to land it.

HURLBAT:

Having this on a 6 second cool-down made Champions so much better.  When playing vs. range, you can win and lose based on your accuracy with this.  With a 24 second cool-down, it REALLY hurts to miss, now you get more chances.

RELENTLESS:

Single best passive for Champions.  Partly because it lets you start any fight with full rage (even if you are running around harvesting).  I think if they do a "baked in" version, it should be just one aspect of it, not both (i.e. "you gain rage in combat" OR "you no longer lose rage out of combat").  But I think it will be fine balanced around taking a passive slot, especially once others come online (passive 350 AP minor says hello).

MACE VS. AXE:

I have played around with both and I still don't know which is better.

On paper, Mace should be WAY better.  Many of our base skills are crushing damage, so they are increased by the passive crushing damage of the Mace Discipline (vs the Slashing on the Axe).  Additionally, the mace has a stun combo.  Stuns are obviously really great, but having one on the Champion amazing, because landing it basically guarantees a Neckbreaker, which is massive damage and yet another stun.  I have yet to see anyone fast enough to get out of the first stun and away from the Neckbreaker.  Usually they get their "E" off just in time to get hit with Neckbreaker.  However, landing that stun on the mace combo is really hard; basically impossible vs. non-melee.

The Axe looks undeniably way more bad-ass.  But I have found more success using it too.  Demolish Armor is pretty easy to land in my experience and does decent damage (better than first 2 LMB attacks).  Not sure exactly what the debuff does yet, but in theory it would be really good.  Also, the Axe passive seems pretty good; 150 AP proc (doubles my AP - anyone know coefficients?).  Not sure how much the barrier does though.

MASSIVE CLEAVE:

Basically useless.  The initial damage is actually really good, but does not even cleave.  The spinning AoE combo is pointless (I can't even see it being good vs groups of people - it just does no damage).

ULTIMATE WARRIOR:

God tier skill.  Immunity, heal, increased damage.  Might be a little over the top now with heals from other disciplines.

OTHER THOUGHTS:

I do wish we had more AoE damage (given the size of us and our weapon it just makes sense).  Maybe that will end up being a racial passive of the Half-Giant or something, who knows.  I would also really like some kind of weapon swap discipline or mechanic.  I always liked the play-style of switch between 1H/Shield (more defense) and 2H (more damage) based on the situation.  Would need some new interface tech for this I assume. 

Other than that, Champion feels good.  Good damage, mobility, and sustain.

 

On 5/21/2017 at 6:46 PM, Kraav said:

They just fixed Insanity and it is indeed working correctly now. You gain max health based on rage. 

It seems to work based on what the skill tool-tip says, but in the more general description of what the discipline says (how I understood it), "gain health based on rage", it is falling short in fulfilling that role.  I want a skill that costs rage and heals current health, with effectiveness scaling based on rage consumed (maybe even a toggle HoT that drains rage).  The cost needs to be enough to make you feel the loss of damage though (not like the Field Surgeon HoT).

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Kirchoff:

I agree with alot of points you make and I will provide my experiences as well. 

REND:

Agree with the awesomeness of landing it. 

HURLBAT:

Agreed. This change has not made us a ranged class but given us a skill shot tool to at least do a bit of damage and chase (due to the snare) LOVE IT CURRENTLY! 

RELENTLESS:

This is so mandatory the class cannot function properly with out it. Hence my call for making it baseline. If they indeed go to a 4 passive system by default or add minor runes that give x1 addition passive slot then we could leave as is. 

MACE VS. AXE:

MACE: Melee ranged true stun combined with the Will of the Stoneborn power that reduces you efficiency bonus (a good thing). Reduced resource costs put this disc ahead of axe for me.

Axe: Demolish Armor, and the Axemaster Berserker passive are the two shining stars here. That being said our passive slots are at a premium currently, the proc lasts a decent amount of time for +150 AP, but no mention of the barrier no any ICD. Plus there are better passives giving more AP all the time (Hello Crazy Pills!!!!!) No amount listed for Demolish Armor but I will bet they will not allow resists to go negative so depends on the targets armor, and at 23sec CD on the ability you cant spam it.

That all being said I LOVE AXES in all games I play.

MASSIVE CLEAVE:

Agreed the initial hit is decent but the actual follow up cleave hits like a noodle. They should up the damage of the x7 attacks of the second part or increase the cost to activate them or reduce the number from x7 to x5.

ULTIMATE WARRIOR:

Gives us sustain. It is nothing like being healed by a true healer which is fine. The power feels good to use, you want to use it, and it give a damage bonus for a good length of time. Love it!

Kick Sand: They need to look into it as the animation does not play to the end (where the sand gets kicked up if you are running/chasing your target) You are charged the resource cost but the 4 seconds of blind and the attack damage would not land for me. The moment I was standing still it worked perfectly.

Favorite Discs:

Juggernaut: This disc has CC break, and a group Max health buff. 20% every time vs Destroyer disc's Insanity which is based on current rage and self only. 

Reality Warper: The active Warp Reality has a 6sec CD puts a healing absorb bubble on the target and explodes after 15secs for AOE damage if you cant heal it off. Coupled with Crazy Pills passive which was giving me +297 AP it was epic!

 

Edited by Kraav
Typos changed to +297AP

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1 hour ago, Kraav said:

Favorite Discs:

Juggernaut: This disc has CC break, and a group Max health buff. 20% every time vs Destroyer disc's Insanity which is based on current rage and self only. 

Reality Warper: The active Warp Reality has a 6sec CD puts a healing absorb bubble on the target and explodes after 15secs for AOE damage if you cant heal it off. Coupled with Crazy Pills passive which was giving me +350 AP it was epic!

 

Just one point about the hp buff: I agree with how things are currently.  But, if ever you get some buff duration and more rage Insanity will be better.  If we get that to 100% up-time it will be way better.  Right now it gives me 2k hp (double what Toughness does).

Probably just an issue of bad tool-tips, but how do you know how much AP it gives you?  Also, it seems to be based on having low Rage, so it shouldn't be a static passive, right?  If it is indeed 350 AP, then yea, that would be amazing.  How much damage does Warp Reality do?

Edited by Kirchhoff

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Juggernaut vs Destroyer: It only gives you a max hitpoint and current hitpoint bonus. They do stack with each other. Yes at full rage when you use Insanity it is better but that is in idea conditions. Toughness (Juggernaut power) is always group wide +20% max health and it lasts 45secs with 68secs CD. Base Champion health was 4176. Toughness brought it to 5011. Insanity brought base to 5921 (when used at max full rage). Stacked I went to 6756 (when used at max full rage and toughness already ticking).

That all being said when I used Insanity while at 33% of my rage bar full it was well under the +20% from Toughness. I would rather have a stable group wide buff then the hope i am not out of most of my rage and pop this oh poorly made socks button and be let down, but that is personal playstyle. Affecting your group with Toughness is just gravy as this will be group orientated game for sure.

Reality Warper: The Warp Reality power had 15m range which is awesome. Ray skill shot style with no projection, the target just got the debuff. it would deal x2 damge AOE style if they couldnt out heal the 500 point debuff (Which is in line with the newly capped 1050 max damage on stuff like reflects). 

Crazy Pills: this passive was tight. It didnt feel like a display bug. You gained +150 AP all the time from just slotting it and then anywhere from an additional +0 to +147 AP depending on your resource level. +147 at 0 and +0 bonus when you were sitting max resource. (I tested with Champion so it was Rage). I also just realized it was +297 AP total from Crazy Pills not +350 AP.

I love theorycrafting btw!

Edited by Kraav
Profanity changed to socks hahahhaa

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@Kraav I did some more testing last night using some of the builds you mentioned.  

REALITY WARPER:

I did like Crazy Pills passive.  However, Warp Reality was not as good.  First, the debuff lasted too long.  Second, I was fighting a lot of champions, so 1 Ultimate Warrior took it off.  Not writing this one off yet, though.

JUGGERNAUT & DESTROYER:

Stacking the HP bonus together was interesting as a "never die" build.  I ran the passive that heals for 4%-6% (?) of HP when stunned.  Also, Aegis of Salvation heals 10%-15% hp.  With nearly 7000 HP, it was significant.  But I was having a hard time killing people.

BARD & TROUBADOUR:

Total cheese.  Didn't care for the play-style at all.  But Dirge on tanky build is stupid.  You will eventually kill anyone without really good sustain just from standing there.  Feels like this could become a cancer build.

FIELD SURGEON:

Good option for sustain as well as group support.  You can basically spam the heal on CD with Relentless and a few LMB/Leaps.  You do lose out on damage.

RUNESCARRED GLADIATOR:

I came back to this after testing the others and realized just how amazing it is.  Runecarve Flesh is just so powerful.  If it was JUST a 50% damage reduction it would be decent.  The fact that you can use it for huge burst is just icing on the cake.  Add in the fact that Nothing to Lose counts toward the damage of Runecarve Flesh (amazing synergy) and this skill becomes too powerful to give up.  Not to mention that with Nothing to Lose up, I can get a critical hit for 450 with LMB (only 12% chance, but still).  As my critical chance goes up (training, gear, etc.) this will become even better (the buff is 5% critical chance and 50% critical damage - so it scales with your current critical chance massively).

With this build, I could drop people so fast they were saying "wtf" in chat.  Put up Runecarve Flesh, use Nothing to Lose, use Hurlbat and LMB, stomp into suppress, drop a Neckbreaker (they should be slowed and suppressed), and then Runecarve Flesh pops and they are dead.  FYI/PSA: Runecarve Flesh will go off even if you are suppressed; I killed a few people this way and they were very confused (especially when it was a 1050 hit).  It was nice being able to kill people without having to land Rend.  Obviously, you need some sustain to go with this build (you are literally killing yourself).  I found Aegis of Salvation on Destroyer to be amazing for this.  Gives you a barrier and a heal (and seemed impossible to miss - I almost think you don't have to hit anyone?).

I was dueling in ScumLord's EK with the Runescarred Gladiator and Destroyer build for most of the time last night and I was nearly undefeated for a few hours (died to a few bugs and one crazy ass Templar parry on a rend when we were both low).  

One caveat to this: We were fighting using basic gear.  So damage was a lot lower than with advanced weapons.  Which meant that it was easier to get away with using Nothing to Lose.  I can see that skill becoming too risky when damage goes higher.  Also, I was fighting almost all melee, and mostly other Champions (feels like no AT can out brawl the Champion right now).  So take this with a grain of salt.

 

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What is the Barrier values provided on Berserker strenght? Tooltips should give us more specific details.

Same thing on demolish armor.

Edited by BarriaKarl

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Just in case anyone didn't notice yet: you can stack the default "Second Wind" passive with "First Wind" from Runescarred Gladiator. This gives you a new buff - "Third Wind" (I'm not joking) that provides rapid healing up to 80% hp. The sustain on that build is pretty crazy; if you can leap/dodge away and avoid damage for a few seconds, you can self-heal faster than the actual healing archetypes.

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16 minutes ago, Avloren said:

Just in case anyone didn't notice yet: you can stack the default "Second Wind" passive with "First Wind" from Runescarred Gladiator. This gives you a new buff - "Third Wind" (I'm not joking) that provides rapid healing up to 80% hp. The sustain on that build is pretty crazy; if you can leap/dodge away and avoid damage for a few seconds, you can self-heal faster than the actual healing archetypes.

i literally thought you were trolling...but no

 

hidden combos confirmed

p.s. "actual healing archetypes" are broken at the moment - druid

Edited by Tinnis

caldera_forum_banner_wings.png

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Are you sure this isn't one of those class-specific bonuses they told us about? When talking about Friar they indicated that a support class (cleric/druid) might get 5 chain-bounces, whereas an Assassin would get the specific tooltip amount of 2.

Perhaps this is a class-based bonus and not a combination of the two runes? 

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In relation to the "Third Wind" discussion.  You do not need to have Second Wind and First Wind loaded out.  Just having the rune equipped causes this "functionality".  I had originally thought that it was a time delay issue (i.e. the game did not check to shut off the healing due to going above 50% frequently enough - so it would linger).  However, it does appear to be some entirely other thing.  Perhaps it is an intentional hidden (read: undocumented) combo - who knows.

Along the same lines.  I was getting stacks of Careless Whisper without even having made the minor discipline.  I was attacking a gravestone (to get rage) and was never able to get more than 3, so it was useless, but still interesting.  Either we have bugs, some functionality we don't know about yet, or both.

There may also be something to the fact that many disciplines give out passives that you have by default.  Maybe they are not actually duplicates but have the same name/description but different effects?  Maybe having 2 of the same passive causes these bugs?  I know that I have 2 "Second Winds" right now.  What if one actually does heal to 80% but the tool-tip is wrong?  Maybe if you have 2 Second Wind's they just become Third Wind?

Considering how complicated understanding and implementing efficiency has been, I don't anticipate understanding what is going on here any time soon.

Just saw @scree 's post.  I think you are probably right here.  The Champion probably just gets Second Wind replaced with Third Wind as a passive (or it is tied to being Half-Giant - same thing for now).  All the other possible bugs/secret functionality don't make as much sense (to me anyway).

Edited by Kirchhoff

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58 minutes ago, Avloren said:

Just in case anyone didn't notice yet: you can stack the default "Second Wind" passive with "First Wind" from Runescarred Gladiator. This gives you a new buff - "Third Wind" (I'm not joking) that provides rapid healing up to 80% hp. The sustain on that build is pretty crazy; if you can leap/dodge away and avoid damage for a few seconds, you can self-heal faster than the actual healing archetypes.

Also, you don't have to leap and dodge to get this healing.  When playing vs melee (with the state of current performance) you can get the healing to activate by circle strafing around your enemy (or jumping on top of them).  The LMB aiming makes it possible to have people walking around trying to hit each other and just missing all the time.  I always face palm when Second Wind activates when I am in a melee fight with another player.

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48 minutes ago, Kirchhoff said:

Also, you don't have to leap and dodge to get this healing.  When playing vs melee (with the state of current performance) you can get the healing to activate by circle strafing around your enemy (or jumping on top of them).  The LMB aiming makes it possible to have people walking around trying to hit each other and just missing all the time.  I always face palm when Second Wind activates when I am in a melee fight with another player.

Hahaha I heard somewhere that they changed how targeting works so it is not a performance issue. Something about changing attacks to raycasts or something like that...

Will try to find it...

EDIT:

HERE:

 

Edited by BarriaKarl

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1 hour ago, Kirchhoff said:

Also, you don't have to leap and dodge to get this healing.  When playing vs melee (with the state of current performance) you can get the healing to activate by circle strafing around your enemy (or jumping on top of them).  The LMB aiming makes it possible to have people walking around trying to hit each other and just missing all the time.  I always face palm when Second Wind activates when I am in a melee fight with another player.

Yeah, I was encountering this problem last weekend dueling champions as templar. I was swinging my sword visually through the guy, which I could swear used to work, and now I'm hitting nothing but air half the time. I've read on the forums that it changed recently so that we're required to get the aiming reticle over the guy for the hit to count; knowing that I'm hoping I can adjust for it and become less easily circle-strafeable.

1 hour ago, Tinnis said:

p.s. "actual healing archetypes" are broken at the moment - druid

McBain-Standup-Meme.jpg

;)

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1 hour ago, scree said:

Perhaps this is a class-based bonus and not a combination of the two runes? 

Essentially it is class based. There's just one rune involved - Runescarred Gladiator - which combos with a passive from the Champion base kit.

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