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Passive Powers and you - Official discussion thread

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25 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

I have Valerie hand crafting every single weapon type as we speak to make sure the values are where we want them. The one handed weapons are in the ballpark, the 2 handed / dual wield weapons seem to be way to good by about 50%. Will make some adjustments after we are done verifying the numbers.

 

Blair, we appreciate you and ACE responding to feedback re: weapon effiency and investigating.

Although this is not the direction that I think is balanced under current mechanics (the high resource cost on weapons completely breaks the myrm and is rough on the knight), that may change with future updates.

Either way it is good to confirm that the numbers are a "feature" rather than a "bug".

Edited by angelmar

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2 hours ago, thomasblair said:

I have Valerie hand crafting every single weapon type as we speak to make sure the values are where we want them. The one handed weapons are in the ballpark, the 2 handed / dual wield weapons seem to be way to good by about 50%. Will make some adjustments after we are done verifying the numbers.

 

Are Templars not affected by weapon efficiency?


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8 hours ago, Tinnis said:

Currently it seems people will just pick say the base class which has the best (well "least worst") resource system and HP and then stack up DISC powers on it :P (most of which probably wont even use resource)

 

That would be good though, (currently it feels like champ/templar are in a good spot) because then we at least would know what class and which combinations are so overpowered there is no counter.


Archetypes I am Interested in: Templar, Legionnaire, Myrmidon, Confessor.
Also, Looking for a Guild, preferably Oceanic but also US West works best for me. (Misery)

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5 hours ago, thomasblair said:

Just renamed the stat for clarity.

The caps are there for a reason. (craft better weapons)

Not everything is meant to stack.  (creates choice and opportunity for progression)

 

Also PiP users don't interact with the power cost multiplier. (creates more choice and options for those who don't have great weapons)

Interesting... so as a Templar, I may want to craft a weapon with the worst power cost multiplier since I ignore that stat anyway?

Which means I can spend the same effort other people would on buffing that up to increase maximum damage + durability...

At the same time someone with a perfect roll may get a lot more out of their Knight or Druid than I can possibly achieve with the pip system.


Archetypes I am Interested in: Templar, Legionnaire, Myrmidon, Confessor.
Also, Looking for a Guild, preferably Oceanic but also US West works best for me. (Misery)

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7 hours ago, coolster50 said:

So many passives, so little slots... :(

@Blair, please consider letting players slot active and passive skills off the same file. Some players will want more active powers and trade passive talents to get them. and vice versa for others. One less file per player record should be cleaner and more efficient for the server to process (lag is still CF's biggest problem IMO). This should be a fair & balanced way for players to have more choice, "decisions that matter". And humans could still get a free skill slot for balance purposes if that's the plan.

1 hour ago, Tark said:

Are Templars not affected by weapon efficiency?

They're pip-users like duelists..


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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Just now, chancellor said:

@Blair, please consider letting players slot active and passive skills off the same file. Some players will want more active powers and trade passive talents to get them. and vice versa for others. One less file per player record should be cleaner and more efficient for the server to process (lag is still CF's biggest problem IMO). This should be a fair & balanced way for players to have more choice, "decisions that matter". And humans could still get a free skill slot for balance purposes if that's the plan.

They're pip-users like duelists..

I understand that.


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42 minutes ago, Tark said:

I understand that.

According to Blair (see previous page) PIPs users dont interact with the Power Cost Multiplier stat so no. Templar and duelists dont need to bother with that.

This stats need some balancing though. Not even the worse weapon should give you .25 PCM, that is insane! Working in a -0.1 to 0.1 PCM window should be okay. If to obtain a 0 PCM a player have to give up on any other weapon stat then it is bad.

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Personally I think 4 passive slots should be the norm. Seeing as race / class / disc / promotion classes will utterly choke your active / passive slots.  As is the active / passive slots are extremely packed. I know they want you to make difficult choices and will introduce ways to expand them with expansive mind, but it seems to me that the baseline needs to be just slightly expanded. Currently it's not so much a difficult choice as it is not using 30-50% of your kit.

 

As far as passive slots though perhaps 4 should be the norm, while 3 should be for things like Centaurs to help balance their movespeed, and 5 for humans to act as their racial ability.

 

EDIT: How on earth would you even be able to take advantage of EK trophies? Would they be global and ignore passive slots? Would they have their own tray slots? What's the point of EK relic buffs if they don't fit in the system?

Edited by Ranik

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I gotta say, it sure feels like you are removing a lot of choice on the Knight, when I'm forced to spend two of my passives and one active to stay on top of my stamina (and be able to play the class at all). 

And then the pip classes aren't affected at all, crafting high damage weapons, and ignoring efficiency. 

I get that you want to create variety and choice, but you are removing it for resource starved classes like the Knight and Myrmidon. 

Also, it just feels really bad and un-fun to constantly be out of resource for your next ability. 

Edited by Supreeme

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THE most active European guild. Join us now!

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7 hours ago, Supreeme said:

I gotta say, it sure feels like you are removing a lot of choice on the Knight, when I'm forced to spend two of my passives and one active to stay on top of my stamina (and be able to play the class at all). 

And then the pip classes aren't affected at all, crafting high damage weapons, and ignoring efficiency. 

I get that you want to create variety and choice, but you are removing it for resource starved classes like the Knight and Myrmidon. 

Also, it just feels really bad and un-fun to constantly be out of resource for your next ability. 

I am still completely baffled at their decision to make knights use nothing but stamina. When they changed the right click dodge powers, this is the patch note they wrote:

Right click Dodge powers no longer consume stamina. (we were just overloading too many disparate aspects on the stamina pool, dodges, harvesting, sprints)

So, the confessor had too many things using their stamina pool, so they get a separate resource for dodges, but the knight has to use stamina for everything? Sprint, harvesting, block and all attacks?

I seriously hope the plan is to give the knight rage, fury or energy. Hell, I'd take back mana at this point. The stamina system sucks and most of the discs that are supposed to help with it are broken. If you don't want knights blocking all the time, find a better way to do it.

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13 minutes ago, Arkade said:

I am still completely baffled at their decision to make knights use nothing but stamina. When they changed the right click dodge powers, this is the patch note they wrote:

Right click Dodge powers no longer consume stamina. (we were just overloading too many disparate aspects on the stamina pool, dodges, harvesting, sprints)

So, the confessor had too many things using their stamina pool, so they get a separate resource for dodges, but the knight has to use stamina for everything? Sprint, harvesting, block and all attacks?

I seriously hope the plan is to give the knight rage, fury or energy. Hell, I'd take back mana at this point. The stamina system sucks and most of the discs that are supposed to help with it are broken. If you don't want knights blocking all the time, find a better way to do it.

Now nobody *but* knight uses stamina/sprint...dodge pips are a too homogenized maths of class distance vs cooldown spam compared to stamina management from before and they removed out of combat sprinting as an option too....so in combat you'll generally be doing other things than sprinting...unless your a low mobility knight ;p

(and perma blocking builds are now a thing with discs too but meh to that again)

Edited by Tinnis

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The harvesting passives are designed to act as leg-ups for those who don't have any (or many) harvesting skills trained. (Think of it like a handicap for starting players!) Each of these passives will grant the player up to three “Plentiful Harvest” ranks in the associated profession: Mining, Logging, Quarrying and Skinning. A player who chooses to train in one or more of these associated skills will, in time, have no reason to use these passives.

I am unsure of the direction the team is taking with the general tab and Gathering. If you can take a passive that emulates more than a significant amount of training in gathering and turn it on and off as needed, it seems that combat/crafter players again get the carrot and anyone who plans on playing a gatherer gets the stick.

Where are Gatherers Passive Combat items? Do we get deep in the combat tree options like CC resistance to turn on and off at will?  Sure long time I will pass the passive value of the non-gatherers but the training time has to be spent by me to get it .... but combat player and even crafters can spend deep in their trees without loosing any efficiency of training management?   10 days into the game I am at the same Plentiful harvest as a combat person but they have 10 days of combat training also?

 

Edited by anhrezcf

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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Also crafting a weapon is broken right now. The final combine swaps the negative good bonus for a positive bad bonus. And if that makes sense to you then you have been around blairmath too long. 

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2 hours ago, Tinnis said:

Now nobody *but* knight uses stamina/sprint...dodge pips are a too homogenized maths of class distance vs cooldown spam compared to stamina management from before and they removed out of combat sprinting as an option too....so in combat you'll generally be doing other things than sprinting...unless your a low mobility knight ;p

(and perma blocking builds are now a thing with discs too but meh to that again)

Well, the Molon Labe and Numbness passives do not work. They are supposed to reduce the stamina loss when blocking a big hit, but instead they drain my entire stamina bar in about 2 seconds when I block, whether I'm hit or not. Emminently Punchable helps, but Blood Pact takes way too much HP. On a Templar, it uses far less HP. Maybe Weapon Efficiency plays a factor there, or the HP costs are scaled based on the resource cost, or both. The Onslaught combo takes more than half my stamina. If I execute that combo while using Blood Pact, I lose 760 HP. I can cast the Judgement/Execute combo, both of which cost a pip, 3 times while under Blood Pact and only lose 60 HP.

The resource system needs an overhaul. Confessors have no need to worry about Mana. Their passive is more than enough to keep them from running out. When is the last time any confessor actually needed to use Fervor? I bet no one has it on their power bar. I have no problem having to manage a resource, but when some classes are resource starved and some classes never have to worry about it, that's a problem.

 

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47 minutes ago, srathor said:

Also crafting a weapon is broken right now. The final combine swaps the negative good bonus for a positive bad bonus. And if that makes sense to you then you have been around blairmath too long. 

The "negative good bonus" reduces the built-in "positive bad bonus." It is not a "swap."


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9 minutes ago, Arkade said:

The resource system needs an overhaul

Yea I've been voicing this view pretty much since hunger dome for all the classes :) (also tested those on druid shield - same and other bugs)

Druids and Knights...esp

Edited by Tinnis

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34 minutes ago, Jah said:

The "negative good bonus" reduces the built-in "positive bad bonus." It is not a "swap."

I start with a -0.238 I hit combine, I now have a +0.488 I do experiments  and get crappy rolls I now have a +0.452

Somewhere the math is wonky. 

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19 hours ago, thomasblair said:

I have Valerie hand crafting every single weapon type as we speak to make sure the values are where we want them. The one handed weapons are in the ballpark, the 2 handed / dual wield weapons seem to be way to good by about 50%. Will make some adjustments after we are done verifying the numbers.

 

To me this answers my question that a blue binding modded to -0.25 and white pages modded to -0.115 on final combine are, in fact, supposed to combine to +0.5 WE, modding down to +0.376 on a green final combine/experiment.  This makes me /sadpandaface for several reasons, but let's hope it's a future balance issue.

42 minutes ago, Arkade said:

 

The resource system needs an overhaul. Confessors have no need to worry about Mana. Their passive is more than enough to keep them from running out. When is the last time any confessor actually needed to use Fervor? I bet no one has it on their power bar. I have no problem having to manage a resource, but when some classes are resource starved and some classes never have to worry about it, that's a problem.

 

Yes, confessors do not have to worry about mana if their passive is equipped, but please understand, that also means we effectively have 2 passive slots to other classes 3.  There is a 3 passive build I want to try, but cannot due to the WE "issue" and required to keep our original class passive slotted.  Also please be aware that for some abilities confessor now needs a new resource, zealotry as well, which is another new (hidden?  I didn't really notice on my limited engagements this weekend, and forgot to video) resource we have to track/worry about.

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13 minutes ago, mivius said:

Yes, confessors do not have to worry about mana if their passive is equipped, but please understand, that also means we effectively have 2 passive slots to other classes 3.  There is a 3 passive build I want to try, but cannot due to the WE "issue" and required to keep our original class passive slotted.  Also please be aware that for some abilities confessor now needs a new resource, zealotry as well, which is another new (hidden?  I didn't really notice on my limited engagements this weekend, and forgot to video) resource we have to track/worry about.

Knights have to equip passives and still worry about their stamina. The classes aren't even remotely comparable in terms of resource usage.

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