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preston

Crafting & Secondary Accounts

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I am really concerned about the emphasis on crafting being such a dedicated role in the game.  Yes, I understand the arguments for interdependent loops and all that jazz but for those of us who are hybrid combat/crafters it means that to have fun at both it is impossible in Crowfall with a single account.  If I want to be decent at all with crafting I will have to do it on a separate account to train the skills.  I think it would make more sense to allow an account to at least be able to master 1 or 2 crafting skills alongside the combat skills.  It doesn't have to be all of them or even more than a few.  Leave the mastery of more than two to the dedicated crafters.  Please don't kill off the hybrid players or force us to have a second account.  I have always detested how I have to do that in so many games.  Log out/Log in on another character to gather resources; Log out/ Log in on another character to craft; Log out/ Log in another character to combat.  Since we are limited to the offline skill training system such as in EVE it will result in people with 2+ accounts. 


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I understand your the concerns, but I also understand that the devs want to do something different and increase the role of the crafters. What you propose would push crafters back to being a secondary thought OR the god-awful grind-advancement: "Make 5000 daggers and dump them". Also note that there is nothing preventing you to be a combat-crafter. You just need to dedicate some of your skill training to both.

Also consider these few things:

  1. in EVE (were you can be both also) - you get one skill in training - when you pay a monthly fee
  2. in CF - you get 2 skills in training indefinitely: one for dedicated style of combat and another one that you can choose - with initial one time payment
  3. in CF - you get 2 MORE skills in training for dedicated style of combat - with a monthly fee
  4. in CF - you get 2 MORE skills in training indefinitely: one for dedicated style of combat and another one that you can choose - with additional one time payment

 

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keep in mind that crafters/gatherers are going to need to be in campaigns to do the most good (embargo stops you from bringing lots of resources from your EK into the campaign).

So, if one person brings like 5 different alts into the campaign with him, that is 4 slots basically wasted for his team as those characters are never going to do something other  than occasionally log on to craft something.  They will not be contributing to any other part of the campaign and if multiple people bring in alts then they will have a severe numbers disadvantage against the other team which could result in them losing.

For example if you have 2 teams of 500 people, and one team has 50 of its people who are pure crafting/gathering alts, then in any major conflict that happens its essentially 500 vs 450.  more alts hurts your side more than it helps.

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With your logic what's to stop me from making another account and mastering more crafting skills than I would be able to in its current form? Let's face it. There's going to be people with multiple accounts to power game. Given a single account more skills to train is only going to empower us....erhm them more.

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dont forget that you can target farmer/crafter heavily with ganking/camping, and several accounts for gathering are rather unlikely, you would have to bot to make efficient use of them or am i mistaken?


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20 hours ago, jasta85 said:

keep in mind that crafters/gatherers are going to need to be in campaigns to do the most good (embargo stops you from bringing lots of resources from your EK into the campaign).

So, if one person brings like 5 different alts into the campaign with him, that is 4 slots basically wasted for his team as those characters are never going to do something other  than occasionally log on to craft something.  They will not be contributing to any other part of the campaign and if multiple people bring in alts then they will have a severe numbers disadvantage against the other team which could result in them losing.

For example if you have 2 teams of 500 people, and one team has 50 of its people who are pure crafting/gathering alts, then in any major conflict that happens its essentially 500 vs 450.  more alts hurts your side more than it helps.

This is a pretty dumb comparison but I will feed your troll. Your assuming the other team has 0 crafters? If thats the case you would have much better gear than the other team, like MUCH better. The obvious case would be 450v450 with 50 crafters on each. If you are going to make an argument atleast make a viable one instead of being biased towards your point of view..

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1 hour ago, supportdaddy said:

This is a pretty dumb comparison but I will feed your troll. Your assuming the other team has 0 crafters? If thats the case you would have much better gear than the other team, like MUCH better. The obvious case would be 450v450 with 50 crafters on each. If you are going to make an argument atleast make a viable one instead of being biased towards your point of view..

I am pretty sure crafter/gatherers can turn the tide of a battle. They still can fight. This will be really impactful in POI fights where you have to gather AND fight at the same time.

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56 minutes ago, supportdaddy said:

This is a pretty dumb comparison but I will feed your troll. Your assuming the other team has 0 crafters? If thats the case you would have much better gear than the other team, like MUCH better. The obvious case would be 450v450 with 50 crafters on each. If you are going to make an argument atleast make a viable one instead of being biased towards your point of view..

He was not comparing crafters and non-crafters, he was comparing 2 sides where one consists of 500 unique players and the other of 450 unique with 50 of those unique players having crafting accounts that take up those slots.

Let's say the 500 unique players consist of 300 class + combat specced and 200 class + non-combat specced characters. The non-combat characters will still fight and perform decently, they just aren't as min-maxed for combat as the pure combat specced ones.

And let's say the 450 unique players consist of 300 class + combat specced and 150 class + non-combat specced characters. The remaining 50 characters can't be played because they belong to players from the 450 active ones.

CMIIW and that was not your point @jasta85

 

 

Will be interesting to see how ACE tackles multi-accounts used for that purpose in campaigns.

Maybe as soon as you multi-account for one faction in a campaign, you deny a spot for a non-alt (= active) character. But then again, maybe you could just park one of your alt accounts into the opponent's faction and deny spots there. Maybe you will just be able to "lock" your account to a campaign faction and while a faction has a limit of active players in the campaign world at the same time, an unlimited amount of accounts can be locked to said faction. Maybe campaigns don't even have set maximum active player limits. Maybe in later campaigns you will already have combat + crafting trained to a certain degree and the thing that matters most is how you spend your resources (= the time and players you have available) rather than how you prioritize skill training. Maybe, maybe, maybe...

The only thing that can be said for sure is that, at least some, players will always look for a way to gain an advantage over others, no matter how "dirty" it is, as long as it doesn't break the terms of service.

Edited by Koerpermilch

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On 5/24/2017 at 1:01 AM, preston said:

for those of us who are hybrid combat/crafters it means that to have fun at both it is impossible in Crowfall with a single account

This is 100% false. If you train in crafting, the only thing you miss out on are the universal combat skills, which make up a very small portion of player power. There's also nothing stopping you from training in crafting, then switching to combat, or harvesting, or a different crafting profession. You can do everything, if you want to, on a single account. You won't be quite as good as someone who dedicates themselves to a single thing, but that shouldn't stop you from having fun doing it.

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As a person who loves to hybrid as well, I'm pretty happy with the current focus as it is. Maybe I'm misunderstanding (entirely possible, I'm still pretty new to this), but it seems like people can still be viable in combat with the right combination of skills (disciplines), gear, and of course player skill, even if you aren't constantly training one of the universal combat skills. You still have one class (or 3 for VIP) that you can focus on training while you're training crafting or gathering, and there are quite a lot of combat stat boosts in the class trees. You won't be the best at combat, but if you're being a hybrid that's going to be the case regardless isn't it?

The design philosophy of this game seems to be pretty focused on encouraging player interactions. This is a little outside of my comfort zone as I'm used to being a hybrid and kind of being "ok" at most things and not having to necessarily go to anyone else for anything, but that's what I signed up for. I'm looking forward to having skills that not everyone has, and being able to carve out my own niche of usefullness (I kinda laughed at the "I can make the best hilts!" example, but silly as it sounds on the surface, that is actually pretty awesome when you think about it.)

I dunno, just my two bits.

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Even-tough multiple accounts are cheap to maintain, there might be some challenges in utilizing them in campaigns as explained by many in this thread. This will of course depend on the CW rule sets. And these will change over time. ACE has been quite clever with their system design. It allows them to adjust things and also player to vote with their feet and favor certain campaigns, which then will be more plentiful.

All this said I think that the hybrid characters will be quite popular and also viable for 3 big reason: Vessel quality limitation, material shortages, decay.

Because of these, min-maxing is probably not going to be such a big thing in CF. When you enter the campaign with your L33t-skills you are often not able to use them. You might arrive naked and finally get only a bad quality vessel limiting your skills far below what your crow would allow. And then you also find only poor materials and get to craft only the low level gear. Maybe there is also a lot of fighting and all your gear is often stolen or decays in use. Your choice is to opt for low quality gear anyway, which is easy to replace.

In this kind of scenario, it might make more sense to build a jack-of-all trades. Once you have reasonable skills in combat you concentrate on crafting as you know that 95% of the time extra skill would go unused.

 

Edited by Aldahen
typo fixing

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On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 11:46 AM, Arkade said:

This is 100% false. If you train in crafting, the only thing you miss out on are the universal combat skills, which make up a very small portion of player power.

If that's the case, (that general combat training isn't very impactful anyway) then I see no reason not to allow VIP to train it in addition to another general line for the convenience of not having to log in that additional account.

Because it's a "very small portion of player power" anyway.

Right?

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On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 2:26 AM, Zachdidit said:

With your logic what's to stop me from making another account and mastering more crafting skills than I would be able to in its current form? Let's face it. There's going to be people with multiple accounts to power game. Given a single account more skills to train is only going to empower us....erhm them more.

There sure are.

And the way Crowfall requires you to access additional general skill content there will be a custard lot of them.

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2 hours ago, coolwaters said:

There sure are.

And the way Crowfall requires you to access additional general skill content there will be a custard lot of them.

This

Every example I have heard referenced, there was SOME disadvantage or barrier to running alts. Some of them include

  • Active training.  To use an alt, you had to put in effort to level that alt.
  • Limited utility. With the majority of games NOT being crafter focused, one of the whole reasons for the deep interdependence for crafting ACE is trying to achieve, there simply was no reason to use ALT's for crafting purposes.
  • Subscriptions. This is the big one for CCP and EvE, that all accounts REQUIRED a sub to train.  So only those motivated to pay an ongoing cost and actually play multiple accounts had motivation to pay the sub. 
  • There were other ways to achieve what ALT accounts gave players.  Accounts could have multiple race/class characters, with full access to the entire range of skills. 

Crowfall has none of these disadvantages or natural controls, which makes it clear to me that ACE has not actually considered WHY those other games did not have prolific alts. For general skill training in CF, ALT accounts are literally the ONLY WAY to get that kind of flexibility in a reasonable time.

When it comes to craft alts, who for 99% of their in game lives will live behind constructed fortresses,  there is literally no downside.  All these posts citing "server limits" or "team limits" are rampant speculation in total contradiction to what ACE has said they want world access to look like.

Quote

 The only limit that will be placed on the user population for each Campaign World will be the technical limitations of the hardware, i.e. how many players can a server handle? We won’t know that until testing, but we expect it to be similar to other seamless world MMOs.
 

You will want all your crafters protected, gear built from behind walls, and your fighters/harvesters to be in the field.  There is no reason to impell a crafter ALT to leave that soft cocoon of relative safety.

ACE has made the assumption that because other games, with other mechanics, with other motivations, with other cost/benefit relationships to ALT's, have a low percentage of ATL accounts, that their new, revolutionary, and completely unique model will see the exact same behavior.

That is one hell of an assumption I don't think is justified, given just how easy they are to create, and critical to success the crafting versatility will be to teams.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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So I'm gonna go back a bit to the time when coolwaters and Jah and Krakkensmacken all convinced me with perfectly sound logic that "combat specialists" need to have something else going for them besides General - Combat making them a worthwhile specialty.

For anyone who missed it, the broad strokes: according to ACE, character power will ideally be based on 33% player skill, 33% gear, and 33% skill training. Previously, Archetype skill training accounted for around half of the "skill training" aspect, meaning that the time you spent on your combat general skill training should account for about 16% of your overall DPS, meaning that your combat specialist is barely 15% better at combat than a cobbler that has been around for the same amount of time.

I agree with them that this is a problem, but I don't understand how players having multiple alts changes this or directly impacts anyone who decides not to have alts.

After all, even if you have 10 alts, you can only control one of them at a time, and only your combat specialist is going to be on par with me if I main a combat specialist. That means that even if you have a bunch of alts and I don't, you aren't at any particular advantage over me in any given situation. Granted, it means that if I need a new sword, I have to interact with the game's economy, whereas if you need a new sword, you can just log on to a few alts, but that is not the same as you having an advantage over me. In that scenario, you and me both end up with the same thing in the same frame of time. You might consider not having to pay any money in exchange for being able to do every part of it yourself a worthwhile trade-off, while I might find the convenience of not having to switch between half a dozen characters and performing each step to be a worthwhile trade-off. Neither of these options is stronger than the other, and neither of these options gives one of us an edge in PvP.

With the current game model, one person can spend a bunch of money to have the same functionality as a whole guild, but their combat toon is still going to be exactly as powerful as anyone else's combat toon. Alt accounts allow someone to dominate the markets or avoid them entirely, but nothing else. So as long as that's the case, why is this a problem that needs to be fixed? To me, that just sounds like a shortcut to an active and robust market, which is what the game is built around.

I do agree that if combat focus is only going to account for a low double digit percentile difference in DPS that maybe we should focus less on combat specialists as a BUILD and let it just be a ROLE, while letting everyone pick at least one harvesting or crafting specialty, opening up the game to everybody and letting them choose how to apply their build to their role without it being hard-coded into the game mechanics. The way they have this set up right now seems fairly good - the need to choose three of your many, many, many passive skills to slot at once severely limits how effective you can be as a harvester or a crafter while also maintaining your effectiveness in combat, but I don't know if even that will be enough to bridge the gap.

But regardless, I do not follow how the presence or lack of alts have any impact on any of this, even if they're being simultaneously piloted in multiple boxes. Without tab-targeting enabling the degree of control necessary to abuse this system in combat, I just..do not understand why anyone cares. o_o

Edit: also, maybe disciplines will actually make up this difference entirely, increasing base stats accrued through skill training multiplicatively to such an extent that the skill training actually ends up being relevant. Honestly, with disciplines barely into their second week on live, I really think it's way too early to be judging the system. Maybe hold off on the constant freakouts over this until they've finished the basic game loop and started looking at game balance.

Edited by goose
typo correction

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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On 5/24/2017 at 1:30 AM, Aldahen said:

I understand your the concerns, but I also understand that the devs want to do something different and increase the role of the crafters. What you propose would push crafters back to being a secondary thought OR the god-awful grind-advancement: "Make 5000 daggers and dump them". Also note that there is nothing preventing you to be a combat-crafter. You just need to dedicate some of your skill training to both.

Also consider these few things:

  1. in EVE (were you can be both also) - you get one skill in training - when you pay a monthly fee
  2. in CF - you get 2 skills in training indefinitely: one for dedicated style of combat and another one that you can choose - with initial one time payment
  3. in CF - you get 2 MORE skills in training for dedicated style of combat - with a monthly fee
  4. in CF - you get 2 MORE skills in training indefinitely: one for dedicated style of combat and another one that you can choose - with additional one time payment

 

I remember reading some where that the average player has 2 accounts in eve; not sure how factorial that is. I found EvE to be a complete bore and crafting / harvesting in this game is equally if not more so an eye-gouging experience.

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at one point eve only allowed 1 character, of 3, to skill train. Many people had 1 combat character account and 1 other. The other could have been a pve focused ships or crafting. I had 2 accounts so I could harvest materials faster.

Eve also allows the trade of characters. they've added the option to buy a sub for your second or third character to train simultaneously.

 

I can see alt accounts filling a gap that the main crafters can't fill or won't fill. Look at the skill and you'll see that harvesting and crafting are both Universal. Will a dedicated crafter be a harvester too or will the crafter have a second account for harvesting?  I'd prefer to have my account dedicated to combat both UT and Class (Archetype). I'd have no problem having a second account, with or without VIP, for harvesting. Now I could use the second account for different Class training than the main which means my guild/faction is better prepared.


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Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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