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Anhrez

Harvesting Passives ... Why they hurt gatherers

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The harvesting passives are designed to act as leg-ups for those who don't have any (or many) harvesting skills trained. (Think of it like a handicap for starting players!) Each of these passives will grant the player up to three “Plentiful Harvest” ranks in the associated profession: Mining, Logging, Quarrying and Skinning. A player who chooses to train in one or more of these associated skills will, in time, have no reason to use these passives.

Are these going to be in game? if not then please ignore the following rant, but from what I read above it seems like they are in ... and if do its a gut-punch to one general tab option.

So I spend 9 days if training to get a Plentiful Resource in slag ... but a choice by a Non-harvester emulates that that training and they get 9 days more training in Combat.

As a Gatherer do I get a bunch of Combat passives to select from? you know to help me deal with the handicap of not-training Combat?  I get 3 tactics passives Critical hit , Crit Chance, etc? 

If you don't want players to play Gatherers just say so. Why is it on the general tab?  


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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I think they have stated all the time that there will be specific discs for gatherer/crafters. So maybe you cool down and relax a bit and wait for the upcoming discs.  

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10 minutes ago, anhrezcf said:

As a Gatherer do I get a bunch of Combat passives to select from?

I think you do, Aren't most passives combat passives?


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5 minutes ago, Jah said:

I think you do, Aren't most passives combat passives?

Please you know what i mean I earn those with choices I make in Race, class, Disciplines .. these Gathering passives are straight up gifts with no 'cost'  the emulate very specific training paths to make things easier for people that do not have the training. 

Edited by anhrezcf

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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That is what i thought but the passives only give bonus "Plentyful harverst". I dont remember right now but i guess gatherers have 4 or so stats to train so the passive by itself doesnt equal a crafter.

It seems just enough to make a non-gatherer see some mats dropping.

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Do yall know how long it would take to get plentiful harvest to three pips in the gathering tree for actual gatherers? In just one subset of one type of ore? Let alone all 5. 

It is a band aid fix that gives everything to non gatherers and while it does give it to gatherers too it is a mockery of the time gatherers have to spend in their chosen role. Of course having a disc give 150 attack power or more is the same way when you can spend a week or more getting like 15 attack power. 

The numbers make no sense. The timings make no sense

 

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But that's the point ...

Why do we need passives that other train for to make some mats drop. Its too hard for non-gatherer to build up mats? Well all i hear is how as a gatherer I make a choice to sacrifice combat, doesn't it go the other direction? 

if they want a base amount to drop change the base amount a non-gatherer sees from the node. Why give away a significant amount of free skill training to make that happen?

Plentiful harvest is one of if not the most significant stat for gathering folk. if shifts the output table from nothing to something, from grey to white, etc its a primary stat we gatherers are all training for. As important to a Combat class that focuses on Critical Chance for their type of build. 

Edited by anhrezcf

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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I'd really like for these to be dropped behind a training wall. At least a minimum amount of time needed to see these. 

With that said, they aren't doing it to punish gatherers. Keep in mind that simply having plentiful does not a gatherer make you. They will still be awful at efficiency, and probably consume more resources harvesting materials then they'd get out of it.

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10 minutes ago, anhrezcf said:

But that's the point ...

Why do we need passives that other train for the make some mats drop. if they want a base amount to drop change the base amount a non-gatherer sees from the node. Why give away a significant amount of free skill training to make that happen?

I also dont like it but i can work around it. If i can get one Plentiful harverst from the tree and stack it with the passive (for a amazing 4) i will be happy and will focus on increasing others stats.

Even if they dont stack i will probably focus on others stats first and use the passive for gathering. I can just keep swapping it.

PS: Was it you who wrote the article on stealthed.blog?

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I try to respond only to dev posts, but this one needs a rebuttal, and you're normally fairly bright.

This isn't a slap in the face to gatherers.  It's a means to make the first year of the game functional.  Without this, gatherers are utterly useless for 4-6 months, and only marginally useful up to a year in.  The economy won't function during that time if there are no materials coming into it.

The passives give plentiful 3.  They don't give crit chance, crit amount, or beneficial harvest, all of which appear in the harvesting trees early on, and will make dedicated gatherers much better gatherers than folks who don't train those skills.  Gatherers still have a crucial role and will be valued right from the start of the game.  And once they outskill the plentiful 3 (starting about a year in, with current skill progression) their value increases even further.

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35 minutes ago, anhrezcf said:

Are these going to be in game? if not then please ignore the following rant, but from what I read above it seems like they are in ... and if do its a gut-punch to one general tab option.

So I spend 9 days if training to get a Plentiful Resource in slag ... but a choice by a Non-harvester emulates that that training and they get 9 days more training in Combat.

As a Gatherer do I get a bunch of Combat passives to select from? you know to help me deal with the handicap of not-training Combat?  I get 3 tactics passives Critical hit , Crit Chance, etc? 

If you don't want players to play Gatherers just say so. Why is it on the general tab?  

They said in the Live Q&A Gatherers and Crafters will get Discs specific for them as well. The ones shown are just the first batch. There is one already though that increase perception while harvesting.

Also why wouldn't you use that gathering passive plus your training at the start? I mean we won't have access to most other Discs until we can make them with so as a Gatherer you should be equipping the passive as in addition to your training until the point your training makes them not needed. They are designed as a leg up when we start the game as it says.

Edited by pang

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I can definitely see the frustration but you've got to keep in mind the players that want to be dedicated gathers from day 1. They basically can't do anything for a while until they get trained.

I also think it's very important that people who sacrifice training combat should be significantly better at harvesting/crafting. However time gating people from being able to play the role they want to play from day 1 is really lame too. 

Also we don't know what the cooldown for changing passives will be. They've already said it's going to have a cooldown so it's not like combat dudes are going to be putting on the mining passive every time they run up to a rock.

Edited by Zybak

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3 minutes ago, Zybak said:

I can definitely see the frustration but you've got to keep in mind the players that want to be dedicated gathers from day 1. They basically can't do anything for a while until they get trained.

I also think it's very important that people who sacrifice training combat should be significantly better at harvesting/crafting. However time gating people from being able to play the role they want to play from day 1 is really lame too. 

Also we don't know what the cooldown for changing passives will be. They've already said it's going to have a cooldown so it's not like combat dudes are going to be putting on the mining passive every time they run up to a rock.

ya I guess my frustration is so far all I have seen lately is changes that make gathering less fun to play as a main and this just compounds it (I know its only my opinion that this impacts fun game play) 

I am hopeful a Discipline iteration could help alleviate that concern but hard to swallow that in the first X days a combat player will have better training in combat and as good as Plentiful harvest as I do ... when I am spending my limited general tab effort to get it.


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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When the difference is a 2 minute wait for a cooldown or practically zero node loot, yes most combat trained will slot one of the passives if they feel like gathering. 

Shouldn't the skill trees themselves make the first year of the game functional, not a re skinned hack gathering passive potion replacement. It is just going to mask the problems the passive skill system tree for gathering has. Just like the potions do.

Fix the problem, don't spackle over it with a bunch of crap.

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Just now, srathor said:

When the difference is a 2 minute wait for a cooldown or practically zero node loot, yes most combat trained will slot one of the passives if they feel like gathering. 

All they'd need to do is make it to where if you slot in a harvesting passive it is locked for 72 hours. Boom problem solved. 

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Or they could make the tree better. 

You know like gosh. 3rd node in basics Plentiful Harvest Knotwood.  Change that to Wood. Same for stone and ore. Then on the base node for Gathering, excavating, and skinning another plentiful harvest point. 

So without true specialist training you would be at pip3 in the different types. Same as the passive. Have the passive add 1 to anyone's skill. Gather and non, So non trained would have pip2 and if they did a bit of training in the basic gathering could get pip3.

Individual training in all the types is also a joke. I am great at mining iron but poorly made socks at mining copper. 

Edited by srathor
Added stuff

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7 minutes ago, anhrezcf said:

ya I guess my frustration is so far all I have seen lately is changes that make gathering less fun to play as a main and this just compounds it (I know its only my opinion that this impacts fun game play) 

I am hopeful a Discipline iteration could help alleviate that concern but hard to swallow that in the first X days a combat player will have better training in combat and as good as Plentiful harvest as I do ... when I am spending my limited general tab effort to get it.

Don't think that's how it'll work. Like I posted just above why wouldn't you also slot that plentiful passive? Combat guy will just have the passive, while you will have the passive plus whatever you have trained so far.

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11 minutes ago, srathor said:

When the difference is a 2 minute wait for a cooldown or practically zero node loot, yes most combat trained will slot one of the passives if they feel like gathering. 

Shouldn't the skill trees themselves make the first year of the game functional, not a re skinned hack gathering passive potion replacement. It is just going to mask the problems the passive skill system tree for gathering has. Just like the potions do.

Fix the problem, don't spackle over it with a bunch of crap.

The above by Srathor, and the below by Durenthal pretty much summarize the two sides of the dialog IMO.

23 minutes ago, durenthal said:

I try to respond only to dev posts, but this one needs a rebuttal, and you're normally fairly bright.

This isn't a slap in the face to gatherers.  It's a means to make the first year of the game functional.  Without this, gatherers are utterly useless for 4-6 months, and only marginally useful up to a year in.  The economy won't function during that time if there are no materials coming into it.

The passives give plentiful 3.  They don't give crit chance, crit amount, or beneficial harvest, all of which appear in the harvesting trees early on, and will make dedicated gatherers much better gatherers than folks who don't train those skills.  Gatherers still have a crucial role and will be valued right from the start of the game.  And once they outskill the plentiful 3 (starting about a year in, with current skill progression) their value increases even further.

Not trying to stir the pot or "lure" Durenthal into another response, but, taking what you said (Durenthal) then bouncing that off what Srathor said, any thoughts/opinions?


“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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1 hour ago, durenthal said:

 Without this, gatherers are utterly useless for 4-6 months, and only marginally useful up to a year in.  The economy won't function during that time if there are no materials coming into it.

 

 

I don't think passive Gathering should be in for Combat, Crafters or Gatherers players. 

Why do we need a passive to be useful to start? does that talk to more of an issue in design that we need some crutch to make a primary tab selection useful from the get go? 

At launch we all suck gathering, as I spend my time training as a gatherer I suck less at gathering and combat/crafter ppl still suck at gathering. If its the output volume from the nodes that has the devs concerned then that should be one of the 'knobs' we hear about instead of faking training for everyone. I realize its my opinion but hey that what the forums are for. 

 

 

Edited by anhrezcf

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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2 hours ago, BarriaKarl said:

I also dont like it but i can work around it. If i can get one Plentiful harverst from the tree and stack it with the passive (for a amazing 4) i will be happy and will focus on increasing others stats.

Even if they dont stack i will probably focus on others stats first and use the passive for gathering. I can just keep swapping it.

The passives do not look like they will stack or at least it is not ACE's intent that they stack with skills at this time:

Passive Powers and you

NEW TYPES OF PASSIVES

Harvesting Passives

"... Each of these passives will grant the player up to three “Plentiful Harvest” ranks in the associated profession: Mining, Logging, Quarrying and Skinning. A player who chooses to train in one or more of these associated skills will, in time, have no reason to use these passives. "

 

The "up to three" language and the "no reason to use these passives" once trained suggests the passives will only provide a benefit if someone does not yet have Mining, Logging, Quarrying, or Skinning trained to three ranks in Plentiful Harvest.  The second part of BarriaKarl's post seems to highlight the issue here - a focus on other stats (i.e. focus on training other skill trees) because these passives exist.

 

I generally agree with anhrezcf that a substitute for the potion environment in the form of a passive is substantially less than ideal.  The problem, as I see it, is ACE said they would not have the harvesting potions in the final build.  If that philosophy holds, it seems to be an end run around to substantially change those potions into passives and then later say, "See! No harvesting potions in the final build."  I am as concerned about these passives making the final build as I was with the potions.  They lessen the overall merit of dabbling in a skill tree and not focusing on it.  ACE's stated intention has been they want diversity created by their passive training system so no two crows (and I do mean crows and not vessels) will be the same.  If these passive harvesting powers remain and are part of the final game, they will lessen the chance some crows will dabble in the harvesting tree when they might otherwise have done so because they already have the ability to dabble (through the passives) without investing valuable time.  Overall, this will then likely lessen crow diversity (and of course there will be some but less than there would have been without the passives in play).

Having said that, I envision these as temporary replacements for the harvesting potions and likely to be removed before a final build or soft launch of the game.  Overall, I think they serve the function better than craft-able harvesting potions since they are not time limited and I had no problem with the harvesting potion because we are still testing.  Therefore, I do not foresee a problem yet - ACE has not said these specific harvesting passives will be in the final build (I'm all for other discipline based harvesting and crafting passives, and these potion substitutes might just be easy ways to start testing that tech).

Also, if these (I think) four passives make it into the final build, they still do not provide some of the more specific harvesting benefits for graveyards, minerals, or gems which would still be left entirely in the hands of the gatherer.  While still a problem, this will still allow some space and need for specialized harvesting characters in the game environment and provide some return on a harvesting character's training time.

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