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Anhrez

Harvesting Passives ... Why they hurt gatherers

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The "chance" seems pretty clearly to be tabled, so you are going to be guaranteed 1 result per crit amount on a successful crit.  So 10% crit is going to average you about half an ore of really nice stuff per node on average for a fully-trained, well-geared player.  Plentiful 5 is a bit better: for R9 it gives you 0.91 additional ore over Plentiful 4 of really nice stuff, for R2 0.7 additional ore.  The additional ore from crit is going to tend to be higher quality, though.  These are both fantastic improvements.  Consider the fact that skill training can only give you +20% crit in each ore type and half of that comes from the capstone.

Edited by canvox

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45 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

You are correct.  Crit roll = Jackpot.  

Unfortunately it also seems to be a gate for all the quantity control, as plentiful harvest only adds quality types and does not increase volume in any meaningful way. Add in the fact that it looks like no matter what your Plentiful Harvest level is, you always roll on the same crit table, and you really only have one dial (crit chance) to adjust both quality and volume.

What might help things would be to add the same tiers to the crit chance table that are in the Plentiful harvest table, and increase the odds in the "Chance" column up the more plentiful harvest pips you have.  They could also consider adding more occurrences of the lower materials so that for example you have a 100% chance of getting 1 green, and a 30% chance of getting a second one.

It's always a bit of mess trying to make chance of a chance of a chance payout tables even work. It would be better if the crit table was actually a table of possible results, each with it's own % of happening, than 4 separate chances in one row.  It's entirely possible with this system to land a rare crit, and end up with nothing at all.

 

If you land a crit right now you are guaranteed at least 1 crit drop. The crit table I posted is an item table and not a treasure table.

The different between the two type of tables being, treasure table rolls are independent, and you could roll success on none/all or somewhere in between.

Item table rolls you are always going to get a result out of that table weighed by the percentages.

 

Also follow up to the outstanding question of who's stats are used?, mark and I went and dug into the code and here is the answer.
The biggest "contributor's" stats (plentiful, critical resource chance, critical amount, all additional harvest drops like soulstones) are used when the resource node goes to lookup what tables to use. The biggest contributor must also contribute at least 20% of the total damage.

Example:

Player A who had low stats did 75% of the total damage, and a player B who had high stats did the last 25%. The rolls would be based on player A.

 

The higher your gathering stat for that type of node, the more armor of the node you are going to reduce, thus the more damage you are going to do. This stat as you all know is on all the tools and a smaller portion comes from the skill trees. Thus in theory a more trained player, with good tools is going to deal more damage than other players if they all start at roughly the same time. If the same trained player rolls onto an almost completed node, what they contribute is quicker death of the node.


Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
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4 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

Also follow up to the outstanding question of who's stats are used?, mark and I went and dug into the code and here is the answer.
The biggest "contributor's" stats (plentiful, critical resource chance, critical amount, all additional harvest drops like soulstones) are used when the resource node goes to lookup what tables to use. The biggest contributor must also contribute at least 20% of the total damage.

Example:

Player A who had low stats did 75% of the total damage, and a player B who had high stats did the last 25%. The rolls would be based on player A.

Er, what?

EDIT: What happens if the biggest contributor didn't contribute 20%?

Edited by canvox

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3 minutes ago, canvox said:

Er, what?

EDIT: What happens if the biggest contributor didn't contribute 20%?

They would not be in the list of contributors for that particular stage, and thus their stats would never be used for what loot to produce.


Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
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Just now, thomasblair said:

They would not be in the list of contributors for that particular stage, and thus their stats would never be used for what loot to produce.

But if the largest contributor didn't contribute 20%, then nobody did, so, whose stats are used?

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2 hours ago, thomasblair said:

Also follow up to the outstanding question of who's stats are used?, mark and I went and dug into the code and here is the answer.
The biggest "contributor's" stats (plentiful, critical resource chance, critical amount, all additional harvest drops like soulstones) are used when the resource node goes to lookup what tables to use. The biggest contributor must also contribute at least 20% of the total damage.

Example:

Player A who had low stats did 75% of the total damage, and a player B who had high stats did the last 25%. The rolls would be based on player A.

 

The higher your gathering stat for that type of node, the more armor of the node you are going to reduce, thus the more damage you are going to do. This stat as you all know is on all the tools and a smaller portion comes from the skill trees. Thus in theory a more trained player, with good tools is going to deal more damage than other players if they all start at roughly the same time. If the same trained player rolls onto an almost completed node, what they contribute is quicker death of the node.

Ok, I misunderstood this one.  Ignore this post.

Edited by durenthal

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12 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

Also follow up to the outstanding question of who's stats are used?, mark and I went and dug into the code and here is the answer.

The biggest "contributor's" stats (plentiful, critical resource chance, critical amount, all additional harvest drops like soulstones) are used when the resource node goes to lookup what tables to use. The biggest contributor must also contribute at least 20% of the total damage.

Example:

Player A who had low stats did 75% of the total damage, and a player B who had high stats did the last 25%. The rolls would be based on player A.

So, Just for clarification:

  • The person with the best stats has to do the most damage out of everyone hitting the node, and has to be more than 20% of the total nodes health?
  • Is this checked every 25% of a nodes HP for the drop, or over the total node?
  • If player C has high crit and does 33% of the dmg, player D has high crit amount and does 33% of the damage, player E has high plentiful and does 34% whos stats are used for the crit, crit amount, and plentiful? Is the best stat for each player? or just the guy that did more dmg to the node?

"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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2 minutes ago, durenthal said:

You typo'd your example here.  In your example, player B's stats are used.

No, player A did 75%.  They are the biggest contributor.  Their stats are used.

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BTW some thought about the excavation capstones today now that I've slept on it: I think the better option is to rework the plentiful tables so that P4 adopts most of P5's gamechange qualities and P5 becomes modest throughput improvement over P4.  P4 is your reward for training all the skills associated with a particular node type + having leadership/alchemy buffs, and as long as leadership/alchemy don't stack with the discipline, full training of a node type is the only way to achieve it.  So P4 should be a revolution whereas P5 should be nice-to-have, whereas right now it's the other way around, plus you get 10% crit which is huge.

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4 minutes ago, destrin said:

So, Just for clarification:

  • The person with the best stats has to do the most damage out of everyone hitting the node, and has to be more than 20% of the total nodes health?
  • Is this checked every 25% of a nodes HP for the drop, or over the total node?
  • If player C has high crit and does 33% of the dmg, player D has high crit amount and does 33% of the damage, player E has high plentiful and does 34% whos stats are used for the crit, crit amount, and plentiful? Is the best stat for each player? or just the guy that did more dmg to the node?

1) Yes

2) It's based on damage done during the lifetime of the node, so it is not zeroed out after a stage pops.  So if you don't have 20% of the damage at the 50% stage but you keep doing damage and others stop, you could potentially be the top contributor at the 0% stage ... all depends on how much damage is done.

3) The guy who did the most damage to the node is the player who stats are checked against for all rolls associated with that stage. The list just grabs the top contributor, and then grabs his stats, and then does rolls based on those stats. 


Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
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@thomasblair I fully understand the rules behind calculating whose stats get used when harvesting. You realize, however, that based upon this information it is unlikely anyone without training would be allowed to harvest, lest they accidentally do more damage than the best-trained player. In effect, these rules will ruin social gathering, not aid in encouraging them.

The entirety of Gathering right now feels less like a social activity, and something a lone individual should engage in. The fact that holding the F key down prevents me from typing to others on in-game chat (let's imagine a good amount of people will not want to be in voice comms all the time), and now this semi-revelation? It feels as if these were designed with good intentions, but because of these decisions you've further isolated Gatherers from participating in a game intended to rely upon them both socially and for what they produce in the game.

edit: I might add that Koster mentioned in the fly-on-the-wall video that the hold F key thing was a bad idea. Seems odd to have ignored that advice for so long.

Edited by scree

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5 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

1) Yes

2) It's based on damage done during the lifetime of the node, so it is not zeroed out after a stage pops.  So if you don't have 20% of the damage at the 50% stage but you keep doing damage and others stop, you could potentially be the top contributor at the 0% stage ... all depends on how much damage is done.

3) The guy who did the most damage to the node is the player who stats are checked against for all rolls associated with that stage. The list just grabs the top contributor, and then grabs his stats, and then does rolls based on those stats. 

How do the leadership buffs work with this?  

Does everyone in the group receive an ongoing leadership buff that applies to them personally, so when it grabs the top contributor, it finds their own stats plus the leadership buffs?

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1 minute ago, scree said:

@thomasblair I fully understand the rules behind calculating whose stats get used when harvesting. You realize, however, that based upon this information it is unlikely anyone without training would be allowed to harvest, lest they accidentally do more damage than the best-trained player. In effect, these rules will ruin social gathering, not aid in encouraging them.

Just give the untrained guys poorly made socks picks.... problem solved.

It is so nice to finally have this explained @thomasblair THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!


"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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Just now, destrin said:

Just give the untrained guys poorly made socks picks.... problem solved.

It is so nice to finally have this explained @thomasblair THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But that means they aren't truly helping. It'd take 500 strikes from a poorly made pick to damage a rank 7-10 node. They might as well be on guard duty for all the "help" they are providing.

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2 minutes ago, scree said:

@thomasblair I fully understand the rules behind calculating whose stats get used when harvesting. You realize, however, that based upon this information it is unlikely anyone without training would be allowed to harvest, lest they accidentally do more damage than the best-trained player. In effect, these rules will ruin social gathering, not aid in encouraging them.

The entirety of Gathering right now feels less like a social activity, and something a lone individual should engage in. The fact that holding the F key down prevents me from typing to others on in-game chat (let's imagine a good amount of people will not want to be in voice comms all the time), and now this semi-revelation? It feels as if these were designed with good intentions, but because of these decisions you've further isolated Gatherers from participating in a game intended to rely upon them both socially and for what they produce in the game.

Not so, it actually becomes more useful for social gatherings. Previously it was a pain because we would all pot up, make good tools and go out punching rocks. Now we know that we just need one good harvester with pots and tools. Everyone else can just use basics to work down the node put do less dmg. I'm pumped to know this info. Thanks @thomasblair !

 

BD

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Just now, scree said:

But that means they aren't truly helping. It'd take 500 strikes from a poorly made pick to damage a rank 7-10 node. They might as well be on guard duty for all the "help" they are providing.

They could easily have white or green grade picks and the trained guys have blue and purple. It's not hard IMO.


"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

YouTube Channel

 

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10 minutes ago, scree said:

@thomasblair I fully understand the rules behind calculating whose stats get used when harvesting. You realize, however, that based upon this information it is unlikely anyone without training would be allowed to harvest, lest they accidentally do more damage than the best-trained player. In effect, these rules will ruin social gathering, not aid in encouraging them.

The entirety of Gathering right now feels less like a social activity, and something a lone individual should engage in. The fact that holding the F key down prevents me from typing to others on in-game chat (let's imagine a good amount of people will not want to be in voice comms all the time), and now this semi-revelation? It feels as if these were designed with good intentions, but because of these decisions you've further isolated Gatherers from participating in a game intended to rely upon them both socially and for what they produce in the game.

I agree with this.  

I don't see the game mechanic need for all the contribution and damage requirements.  All the contributors are in the area, the impact of participation is muddied and impossible to monitor, and it makes it a simply more awkward management task to try to solve the "who contributed more" problem.   

I can see the technical advantage of only having to look up one person's stats, and not having to make ongoing decisions about what stats to apply based on "best" participant, and only catch them at the trigger point, but from a social player interaction point of view, the most people you would ever want working on a node is 2 at the most, lest you risk an untrained player who happens to be toting a higher quality pick botching the whole operation.

I would personally rather it just be the "best person who hit the node ever", and not rely on contribution at all.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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11 minutes ago, scree said:

@thomasblair I fully understand the rules behind calculating whose stats get used when harvesting. You realize, however, that based upon this information it is unlikely anyone without training would be allowed to harvest, lest they accidentally do more damage than the best-trained player. In effect, these rules will ruin social gathering, not aid in encouraging them.

The entirety of Gathering right now feels less like a social activity, and something a lone individual should engage in. The fact that holding the F key down prevents me from typing to others on in-game chat (let's imagine a good amount of people will not want to be in voice comms all the time), and now this semi-revelation? It feels as if these were designed with good intentions, but because of these decisions you've further isolated Gatherers from participating in a game intended to rely upon them both socially and for what they produce in the game.

edit: I might add that Koster mentioned in the fly-on-the-wall video that the hold F key thing was a bad idea. Seems odd to have ignored that advice for so long.

Literally never thought I'd see you write this post. We fight almost incessantly whenever we talk, and it usually gets nasty. But I want to say sorry. I couldn't agree with this more, and you did a much better job than I usually do at delivering this. So thank you, @scree.

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6 minutes ago, canvox said:

Need a Foreman minor discipline that makes me always the top contributor if I do 20%+ damage & more than all other Foreman holders.

Oh, that is a good solution.  Use the current formula, OR the player with the Foreman discipline who has priority.

So the priority would be 

  • Foreman who contributed.
  • Foreman who contributed the most.
  • Player who contributed the most.

And just lose the 20% thing.  I see no go reason for it. If you contributed the most, you will have in 95% of cases also contributed 20%.

Maybe even add Foreman as a skill early/first in the leadership tree.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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