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Anhrez

Harvesting Passives ... Why they hurt gatherers

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Why is it so hard to just give the person trained the better picks... and if you have multiple people trained and with good picks, let the better trained guy hit the node a few times first?  IMO this would actually increase the communication in the group and would make the more organized harvesting groups get better results... rather than just slotting a passive or no braining it and just whacking on a node?


"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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16 minutes ago, Brightdance said:

Not so, it actually becomes more useful for social gatherings. Previously it was a pain because we would all pot up, make good tools and go out punching rocks. Now we know that we just need one good harvester with pots and tools. Everyone else can just use basics to work down the node put do less dmg. I'm pumped to know this info. Thanks @thomasblair !

 

BD

Why should anyone have to cripple/limit themselves when contributing to a goal?  Will boss monsters drop worse stuff if a less highly trained player manages to do the most damage to it as well?

 

The system is counter-intuitive and like scree said, discourages group/social play.

Edited by sidney

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2 minutes ago, destrin said:

Why is it so hard to just give the person trained the better picks... and if you have multiple people trained and with good picks, let the better trained guy hit the node a few times first?  IMO this would actually increase the communication in the group and would make the more organized harvesting groups get better results... rather than just slotting a passive or no braining it and just whacking on a node?

Because that would not actually be the most efficient way to do it.  

You're assuming only one node at a time, but with better co-ordination and a larger group, several untrained could spend their time using even basic picks to wear down the nodes, and then the trained/foreman harvester come along and finish them, or the reverse where the foreman starts the nodes and switches around based on who's is taking the longest.

 

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4 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Because that would not actually be the most efficient way to do it.  

You're assuming only one node at a time, but with better co-ordination and a larger group, several untrained could spend their time using even basic picks to wear down the nodes, and then the trained/foreman harvester come along and finish them, or the reverse where the foreman starts the nodes and switches around based on who's is taking the longest.

You can do the same thing now, except you wont be getting the bonuses from the trained harvester for the early resource pops in both scenarios.

Edited by destrin

"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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7 minutes ago, destrin said:

You can do the same thing now, except you wont be getting the bonuses from the trained harvester for the early resource pops in both scenarios.

Since they added the passives, if everyone has those equipped, it's all about the final hit.  PH 3 produces identical results (one white) for all the 25/50/75 nodes.

They could just get rid of the whole block of "who to use" logic and simply make it the person who hits last that applies the bonus.  Might be a problem on Mother loads, but the other ones are easy enough to prep to final hit.

I still prefer the Foreman passive/skill model.  Takes all the fussing guess work out, while making that have costed something (passive slot/training time) along the way.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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52 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

Player A who had low stats did 75% of the total damage, and a player B who had high stats did the last 25%. The rolls would be based on player A.

So the answer to the question is that it doesn't matter who has the higher stats, it only matters who hits the node the most.  As @scree has pointed out, this just makes harvesting an anti-social activity.  Why would I want another person with me to potentially ruin my stats being used if I'm the highest trained harvester?  In the above quote, it should be that as long as the highest trained harvester does at least 20% damage that their stats will be used.  Player B did more than 20% damage to the overall node, thus his stats are used.

This brings up another question, will this impact how unformed groups harvest?  I'm making a huge assumption here, but the pieces fit, that the 20% was based on 1/5th of a full group.  So one person in an organized/formed group would need to at a minimum contribute equally as much as anyone else in the group in order for their stats to be used.  20% with 10 people hitting on a node is very different than 5 people; now you need 1 person to hit the node @20% while the other 9 people hit it @8.9% on average.  The non-trained players not contributing equally and potentially could make it to where the "most" damage is "stolen" from the highest stat person, if they don't understand how the system/mechanics work.

Current mechanic too confusing, just use the highest persons training as long as they are active, meaning 1 swing on the node.


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9 minutes ago, sidney said:

Please no.  Trolling and honest mistakes will result in frustration and anger.

I don't know who you would keep mining next to if they were trolling you, I would be more worried about trolls scooping up all the doobers, than sneaking in last hits.

I don't personally mind the idea that mistakes in communication and awareness cost results.  There is little enough "skill" involved in harvesting as is, that adding in better results for good communication and coordination seems to be a good rather than a bad thing to me.

The current model is worse for that problem as is, as in a larger group there is no way to tell other than intuition and experience, who has actually contributed more.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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4 minutes ago, Teufel said:

...In the above quote, it should be that as long as the highest trained harvester does at least 20% damage that their stats will be used.  Player B did more than 20% damage to the overall node, thus his stats are used...

No.  This is incorrect.  The stats used are those of the player that does the most damage.  Player A did 75%, and being the most damage, Player A's stats are used.

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I thought i saw somewhere long ago that when rolling for results it would take the best values among all the players. Something like taking my crit chance and your crit amount or something...

Seems like a good idea to me. When harversting you take friends who speccd in other ST lines and search for the best combination.

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1 hour ago, thomasblair said:

 

If you land a crit right now you are guaranteed at least 1 crit drop. The crit table I posted is an item table and not a treasure table.

The different between the two type of tables being, treasure table rolls are independent, and you could roll success on none/all or somewhere in between.

Item table rolls you are always going to get a result out of that table weighed by the percentages.

 

 

So between the plentiful harvest and critical amount, is there another potential multiplier?  

I know I have seen criticals that seemed to spew out far more than 5 lookups on the crit item table, if that table only has one result per critical amount, it seems it should be a flat 5 with the full potential.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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2 minutes ago, sidney said:

No.  This is incorrect.  The stats used are those of the player that does the most damage.  Player A did 75%, and being the most damage, Player A's stats are used.

I know how the mechanic works, and I'm offering another way that it COULD work, instead of the horrible implementation we have now.

In other discussions some were led to believe that as long as a person did a minimum of 20% damage, if they had the highest stats, then their stats would be used.  So Player A does 80% damage, but Player B does 20% damage and has the highest stats, then Player B's stats were used; or with a group of 3, Player A does 40% damage, Player B does 40% damage, Player C does 20% but has the highest stats, Player C's stats would be used.

The current implementation of the harvesting mechanic normalizes at a group of 5, but then A) penalizes groups of less than 5 (unless solo) and B ) penalizes groups of more than 5.  These penalties are more in terms of feelings and feeling valued than they are actual penalties of the mechanics.  However we can't discount how the players feel about a mechanic, because that is probably the biggest driver for any mechanic in a game.

I'm not saying the current mechanic can't work, but there are then approaches needed to maximize the outcome (which players will do), and I'm illustrating that with a minor tweak, you could simplify the mechanic so no inherent "approaches" were needed.


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46 minutes ago, sidney said:

Why should anyone have to cripple/limit themselves when contributing to a goal?  Will boss monsters drop worse stuff if a less highly trained player manages to do the most damage to it as well?

 

The system is counter-intuitive and like scree said, discourages group/social play.

What "Boss Monsters?"...    There may be strong tough mobs but they won't be boss like or promote PvE play, they will be nuisance and perhaps have a minor material drop.  Go ahead and out-smack the trained stone smacker...   see if he'll ever want you in a group again.

 


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5 minutes ago, Frykka said:

What "Boss Monsters?"...    There may be strong tough mobs but they won't be boss like or promote PvE play, they will be nuisance and perhaps have a minor material drop.  Go ahead and out-smack the trained stone smacker...   see if he'll ever want you in a group again.

 

You have completely missed the point of my post, while at the same time reinforcing my case.  Impressive.

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The entire assumption is more people make the nodes explode quicker, thus it is always much more beneficial to bring more people.

The secondary assumption is that generally speaking more trained harvesters do more damage to the nodes, which means their stats are always the ones that are used in the calculations.

This does prevent techniques such as "tap the node once and move on" , or "last hit the node and move on", etc. Neither of those are intuitive to people as "do the most damage". This point is debatable.

@KrakkenSmacken

You may have seen more from critical tables in the past because at once point the critical amount bonus on the potion was set to 10. Which would have yielded a bonus 11 doobers on a critical. The current value is 4, which should cause 5 bonus to appear on a critical. (unless you have even more from a skill tree node)


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3 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

The entire assumption is more people make the nodes explode quicker, thus it is always much more beneficial to bring more people.

Except that training gives you access to entirely different classes of resources.  5 * 0 is still 0

 

EDIT: I mean, if only one person has gem drop trained up, then obviously more people is not better.

EDIT 2: Also regarding the second assumption ,there are no node damage skills after ore familiarity, so its' going to be extremely common for two miners to have totally different drops available but the same damage vs. nodes.

Edited by canvox

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57 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Since they added the passives, if everyone has those equipped, it's all about the final hit.  PH 3 produces identical results (one white) for all the 25/50/75 nodes.

Sure you can do that, but why would you want your non-harvesting trained (combat trained) group members running that passive when you do not have to? Missing 1 combat passive is actually pretty big atm so having 4-5 people run the mining passive seems a tad excessive IMO.  If you may remember from the Q&A yesterday they are putting these harvesting passives on runes now and removing them from being automatically granted, gimping your pvp potential even further. You would be putting your harvesting group at a greater disadvantage this way having more than one person completely specced for harvesting as now you now have your whole group specced for harvesting.  It could be doable IMO but would potentially require a whole other group or partial group for protection.  This means requiring more people to harvest the same amount of materials, requiring more food and man hours to get the same results and therefore would not be more efficient than a single harvester in a group with 4 combatants IMO.

Edited by destrin

"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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10 people on a MOTHERLODE node would mean pretty much random since noone would do the required 20% so it would count last hit. 

Also is that value calculated per 25% chunk? the 20% I mean. 

Also this means if you have one fella with a + to crit and another with + to Gems only one is taken into account. Whomever does the most damage and has 20% of the total damage applied. 

I really wish it was a bucket for the highest of each of the stats for when multiple people hit the nodes. That would be group play, not the weighted most damage stat, that is not group play but boss and minion play. With the first example you could have one dude working with crit gear and pick and weapon, another with gem gear pick and weapon, another with crit amount gear and weapon and all contribute.

This way it is give the big hooligan pick to the trained dude and have 4 minions with good enough picks help out. and it is a chore.

Edited by srathor
Added an important word.

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Would it make more sense when you first log in to the game you have to choose, Combat, Gathering, or Crafting at which point you are assigned the generic passives for each ? Choosing the path wouldn't lock you into that path it would just give you a couple essential passives for that path until you are able to get some training under your belt.

 

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