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Anhrez

Harvesting Passives ... Why they hurt gatherers

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15 minutes ago, srathor said:


Also is that value calculated per 25% chunk? the 20% I mean. 

This is actually a good question.  Player A has the requisite 1.5 yrs of skill training and is a master ore miner. Player B is a noob with no training.

Between node health 100 and node health 25, Player A is the only miner and thus biggest contributor, but the runs out of stamina. Between node health 25 and node health 0, Player B (noob) does 70% of the damage and Player A (trained) 30%.

For purposes of the final node health 0 and all important crit roll whose skills are used? Player A who has done well over 75% of damage to entire node, or Player B who happens to have done more damage between node health 25 to 0.

Edited by angelmar

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36 minutes ago, sidney said:

You have completely missed the point of my post, while at the same time reinforcing my case.  Impressive.

I don't miss anything...   The point of social gathering is to be efficient.  If you have an idiot on your gather team that ruins the efficiency then they are no better than the guy who does nothing but talk, either way they get the /groupkick to bring in a player who actually listens to the gather lead.   No matter what the rules of the node are, it takes a certain non-idiotic player that actually listens to gather with min/max efficiently and that is the point of the mechanics...  there is some nuance to leading gather groups just as there is for shot callers and composition in combat groups.

Edited by Frykka

6FUI4Mk.jpg

                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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28 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

.

@KrakkenSmacken

You may have seen more from critical tables in the past because at once point the critical amount bonus on the potion was set to 10. Which would have yielded a bonus 11 doobers on a critical. The current value is 4, which should cause 5 bonus to appear on a critical. (unless you have even more from a skill tree node)

That was probably exactly what I was experiencing. I have been trying to run without pots mostly for quite some time, but I did notice a drop with them and was not sure if it was PH related or critical amount. 

Now I know, thanks.

It seems to me then that the majority of quantity improvement is actually coming more from critical stats, than it is from "plentiful". From the tables you showed us, the only quantity buffing of a quality type is the "1-2 white copper" values, (is that a 50/50?). Once you hit 100% chance on the PH tables, you are pretty much limited to 1 quantity of them.

Is there a system's limitation reason why you expressed that value as 1-2 white copper and not two columns with white copper 100% and white copper 50%?

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10 minutes ago, srathor said:

10 people on a node would mean pretty much random since noone would do the required 20% so it would count last hit. 

Also is that value calculated per 25% chunk? the 20% I mean. 

Also this means if you have one fella with a + to crit and another with + to Gems only one is taken into account. Whomever does the most damage and has 20% of the total damage applied. 

I really wish it was a bucket for the highest of each of the stats for when multiple people hit the nodes. That would be group play, not the weighted most damage stat, that is not group play but boss and minion play. With the first example you could have one dude working with crit gear and pick and weapon, another with gem gear pick and weapon, another with crit amount gear and weapon and all contribute.

This way it is give the big hooligan pick to the trained dude and have 4 minions with good enough picks help out. and it is a chore.

"10 people on a node"
I'm going to play the "that's dumb" card on that statement. (just like a soccer ref, and the card is yellow) I mean seriously; between player collision, the size of the nodes, and syncing 10 hits from 10 different players. This is not something that is going to happen unless you are trying to make it happen.

A more reasonable problem would be 2-3 people and the guy with trained gem skills didn't bring good picks, so he consistently does less damage, which means the nodes never check the gem stat. (Bring better picks gem guy, you know you should be using them if you want top credit)

The bucket idea is debatable.

The 4 minions are helping kill nodes faster, and don't really need any training beyond "here's a tool", which for many folks is the extent they are willing to put into it. If you asked the same 4 minions to spend precious training time into harvesting, they would probably tell you, "no".


Thomas Blair
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Well one thing this does do is simplify matters.  Send out 2 groups per gather team,  Ore and stone are clustered together for the most part, so the gold and slate team are used to working together, 1 Trained gatherer with real tools and gear for each team 4 combat focused shmoes with Minion tools and combat gear.  Go whack rocks. Newest minion gathers while the rest go to next node. if any gankers show up combats break off and crush them, with the collectors hanging back unless truly needed and guarding the gatherer from ambushes. 

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24 minutes ago, srathor said:

Also is that value calculated per 25% chunk? the 20% I mean. 
 

 

2 hours ago, thomasblair said:

2) It's based on damage done during the lifetime of the node, so it is not zeroed out after a stage pops.  So if you don't have 20% of the damage at the 50% stage but you keep doing damage and others stop, you could potentially be the top contributor at the 0% stage ... all depends on how much damage is done.

 

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4 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

"10 people on a node"
I'm going to play the "that's dumb" card on that statement. (just like a soccer ref, and the card is yellow) I mean seriously; between player collision, the size of the nodes, and syncing 10 hits from 10 different players. This is not something that is going to happen unless you are trying to make it happen.

A more reasonable problem would be 2-3 people and the guy with trained gem skills didn't bring good picks, so he consistently does less damage, which means the nodes never check the gem stat. (Bring better picks gem guy, you know you should be using them if you want top credit)

The bucket idea is debatable.

The 4 minions are helping kill nodes faster, and don't really need any training beyond "here's a tool", which for many folks is the extent they are willing to put into it. If you asked the same 4 minions to spend precious training time into harvesting, they would probably tell you, "no".

I get your point, but I can still see that many people wanted around a motherload. Those things are big enough, and tough enough to be worth the effort.

BTW, what exactly is different about the motherload payout tables?  Do you just add some gems and such, and then double hit the regular ones?

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Just now, KrakkenSmacken said:

BTW, what exactly is different about the motherload payout tables?  Do you just add some gems and such, and then double hit the regular ones?

Mother load tables or RIOT!


"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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Yeah the ten guys was basicly for motherloads. Sorry. But thanks for the replies. I was thinking 2 groups one stone one ore going out together in the sameish areas, able to help each other with the mothers on a tool switch.

The thing is Gatherers like to group up. Me and Anhrez and IHeartFargo ran around a few times doing motherloads and got squat but broken picks basicly. It was bad enough that we have not done it again.

It would be nice if we could help each other out and get something to show for it besides faster node destruction, that any untrained shmoe with the same pick could do just as well. 

Edited by srathor

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16 minutes ago, angelmar said:

This is actually a good question.  Player A has the requisite 1.5 yrs of skill training and is a master ore miner. Player B is a noob with no training.

Between node health 100 and node health 25, Player A is the only miner and thus biggest contributor, but the runs out of stamina. Between node health 25 and node health 0, Player B (noob) does 70% of the damage and Player A (trained) 30%.

For purposes of the final node health 0 and all important crit roll whose skills are used? Player A who has done well over 75% of damage to entire node, or Player B who happens to have done more damage between node health 25 to 0.

Already answered earlier in the thread.

2 hours ago, destrin said:

So, Just for clarification:

  • The person with the best stats has to do the most damage out of everyone hitting the node, and has to be more than 20% of the total nodes health?
  • Is this checked every 25% of a nodes HP for the drop, or over the total node?
  • If player C has high crit and does 33% of the dmg, player D has high crit amount and does 33% of the damage, player E has high plentiful and does 34% whos stats are used for the crit, crit amount, and plentiful? Is the best stat for each player? or just the guy that did more dmg to the node?

2 hours ago, thomasblair said:

1) Yes

2) It's based on damage done during the lifetime of the node, so it is not zeroed out after a stage pops.  So if you don't have 20% of the damage at the 50% stage but you keep doing damage and others stop, you could potentially be the top contributor at the 0% stage ... all depends on how much damage is done.

3) The guy who did the most damage to the node is the player who stats are checked against for all rolls associated with that stage. The list just grabs the top contributor, and then grabs his stats, and then does rolls based on those stats. 


"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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2 hours ago, sidney said:

Why should anyone have to cripple/limit themselves when contributing to a goal?  Will boss monsters drop worse stuff if a less highly trained player manages to do the most damage to it as well?

 

The system is counter-intuitive and like scree said, discourages group/social play.

That's a different point than what you brought up about socializing.

No one should have to cripple themselves because of this mechanic. A group of players can go to a node group, have the skilled harvesters hit different nodes with the less skilled players splitting themselves between the two.

Now you're burning through more nodes as a group and benefiting from the protection of the group.

There is so much here that I'm super excited about but... this is just a place for everyone to argue about every grain of salt they don't think belongs... so I'm not sure why I'm even responding. 

Keep up the good work ACE!

Edited by Brightdance

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1 hour ago, srathor said:

10 people on a node would mean pretty much random since noone would do the required 20% so it would count last hit. 

Also is that value calculated per 25% chunk? the 20% I mean. 

Also this means if you have one fella with a + to crit and another with + to Gems only one is taken into account. Whomever does the most damage and has 20% of the total damage applied. 

I really wish it was a bucket for the highest of each of the stats for when multiple people hit the nodes. That would be group play, not the weighted most damage stat, that is not group play but boss and minion play. With the first example you could have one dude working with crit gear and pick and weapon, another with gem gear pick and weapon, another with crit amount gear and weapon and all contribute.

This way it is give the big hooligan pick to the trained dude and have 4 minions with good enough picks help out. and it is a chore.

As @thomasblair says...

.eJwVzEEOhCAMAMC_8ADaUlDjbwgSJBEhtJ42-3d

 


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39 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

"10 people on a node"
I'm going to play the "that's dumb" card on that statement. (just like a soccer ref, and the card is yellow) I mean seriously; between player collision, the size of the nodes, and syncing 10 hits from 10 different players. This is not something that is going to happen unless you are trying to make it happen.

A more reasonable problem would be 2-3 people and the guy with trained gem skills didn't bring good picks, so he consistently does less damage, which means the nodes never check the gem stat. (Bring better picks gem guy, you know you should be using them if you want top credit)

The bucket idea is debatable.

The 4 minions are helping kill nodes faster, and don't really need any training beyond "here's a tool", which for many folks is the extent they are willing to put into it. If you asked the same 4 minions to spend precious training time into harvesting, they would probably tell you, "no".

Here's a picture for you to play :D 7VfIk6c.jpg

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My thing about motherlodes is that it encourages pairs of similarly-trained players who are focusing different node types, like you take copper, I take tin, and then we go clear copper & tin together, collaborating on the motherlodes.  But the system as described makes that a total poorly made socksshow since we'll have extremely similar node damage & stamina rotations, etc. will make it really hard to track who's done what damage.  IDK about mix & match stat combos (although maybe more bonuses for motherlodes is good), but just anything at all to make sure the tin guy & not the copper guy is the one busting the tin motherlodes would be great.

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7 minutes ago, canvox said:

My thing about motherlodes is that it encourages pairs of similarly-trained players who are focusing different node types, like you take copper, I take tin, and then we go clear copper & tin together, collaborating on the motherlodes.  But the system as described makes that a total poorly made socksshow since we'll have extremely similar node damage & stamina rotations, etc. will make it really hard to track who's done what damage.  IDK about mix & match stat combos (although maybe more bonuses for motherlodes is good), but just anything at all to make sure the tin guy & not the copper guy is the one busting the tin motherlodes would be great.

With Motherlodes you will only want harvesters who are trained in the early motherload passives to hit it anyways.  This increases the chance for gems by all people hitting the node (using ore as an example).  Yes the drops might differ at the death of the motherload but you don't target motherloads for Iron/copper materials. You destory them for the gems.


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1 hour ago, thomasblair said:

The 4 minions are helping kill nodes faster, and don't really need any training beyond "here's a tool", which for many folks is the extent they are willing to put into it. If you asked the same 4 minions to spend precious training time into harvesting, they would probably tell you, "no".

I am not sure i like that. If you do it like that all a gatherer group needs is one gatherer which kinds of undermines the profession.

For me 3 gatherers mining a motherload should receive better results than 1 gatherer (the "best" of the three) and 2 fighters. Taking the best of each gatherer seems like a good idea to me.

EDIT:

No one wants to be a minion. I want to feel like i am contributing to the group.

Edited by BarriaKarl

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1 hour ago, thomasblair said:

"10 people on a node"
I'm going to play the "that's dumb" card on that statement. (just like a soccer ref, and the card is yellow) I mean seriously; between player collision, the size of the nodes, and syncing 10 hits from 10 different players. This is not something that is going to happen unless you are trying to make it happen...

Okay so nodes are not actually going to be large enough for 10 people to gather around?

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