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Anhrez

Harvesting Passives ... Why they hurt gatherers

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Just now, KrakkenSmacken said:

My training as if a couple of days ago. I may not have all the advantages of your ALT accounts, but I have pushed 99% of my training time into harvesting ore, most specifically copper. 

I'm not complaining (much) about the POTENTIAL view from the top of the mountain, you keep seeming to miss that. I'm complaining that the journey to the top, 570 days worth for a single harvesting line, is not enjoyable. 

You're getting purple because of pots, not because of training. It's a crutch that you are mistaking for a real leg.

 

 

Are you wanting/expecting blue, purple, and gold materials on day one of launch?  That is a mechanic that needs to be trained into and these mats need to be RARE.  The first official campaign world should be fought with white and green qualities with the odd blue.  Rushing into end game mats (Purple and Orange) off the start isn't the goal of the early game in Crowfall....


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Just now, scree said:

He's absolutely not making this a group activity. He's making it so that a group has to coordinate their effort for minimal gains. He's advocating a system that might marginally increase harvesting speed, with the added risk that one of your teammates screws up and you don't crit. Well-intentioned teams are far more likely to just tell people to not touch nodes for that risk of screwing up a loot table (people like to min-max) result. This is counter-intuitive.

So is telling your group to bring lower-quality tools so you don't accidentally out damage your "master gatherer". 

Arbitrally determining how many hits a node must minimally suffer before being broken, doesn't reward a well-trained gatherer either. It's a gimpy fix intended to stop expert gatherers from being able to destroy a mother node. 

The easier solution than trying to deal with all of those above issues is to simply not bring a group of gatherers anywhere together. Spread them out and send combat players with them instead. This is really silly, not sure how many times we have to explain why its bad design. I proposed several simple solutions to it above.

I've farmed with various group sizes and what Blair said was correct, they are there to supplement your speed and efficiency. Would I make some tweaks? Yes, and I've already proposed some. But they aren't game changers and I don't think we need to swing a sledge hammer at a problem that requires finishing nail. I've been telling my guild this whole time my theory on how the loot table works in regards to who damages the node and it turns out I was correct. With that said I don't worry about people "screwing" up the node because I have them use worse picks and I also have the damage training. 

You are treating the lower-quality tools/master gather problem like it might hurt another players epeen if they use a lesser quality pickaxe. This is exactly what you'd want to do because its wasteful to do anything otherwise. Once the node is destroyed my partners pick up the loot and I move on to the next node and start whacking away. The system is not hard or overly complex and it works very well. 

You had combat people complaining this whole time that they want to make a difference in harvesting but not train for it. Well it turns out they could the whole time. If they are still upset because their stats don't matter then maybe they are better of playing a single player game where you can have it all. 


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5 minutes ago, Weebles said:

Are you wanting/expecting blue, purple, and gold materials on day one of launch?  That is a mechanic that needs to be trained into and these mats need to be RARE.  The first official campaign world should be fought with white and green qualities with the odd blue.  Rushing into end game mats (Purple and Orange) off the start isn't the goal of the early game in Crowfall....

No, that would be stupid, and Tark was deflecting my main concern here, the lack of a sense of progress. 

If you go back to my post on what tables I think PH should be using, you would see that my suggestion does not even include orange (legendary) material until you have maxed out your progress.

What I do expect, is that if players can hit a POI for thousands of white material whatevers to put into wall, that harvesters have some comparable experience for all the training time they have to sacrifice.

Scarcity of quality is not the same thing as scarcity of quantity and sense of progression.

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6 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

My training as of a couple of days ago. I may not have all the advantages of your ALT accounts, but I have pushed 99% of my training time into harvesting ore, most specifically copper. 

qIuaBq3.jpg

I'm not complaining (much) about the POTENTIAL view from the top of the mountain, you keep seeming to miss that. I'm complaining that the journey to the top, 570 days worth for a single harvesting line, is not enjoyable. 

You're getting purple because of pots, not because of training. It's a crutch that you are mistaking for a real leg.

 

 

The bolded tells me you don't understand that system. Leadership fully replaces the pots and then some. I get more pips from crafting leadership than I do from the pips pot. I'm almost to the end of the leadership harvesting tree and I've compared the stats between pots vs leadership buff and it is indeed replacing the pots. There are some pots I don't even need to use anymore. You are missing half the equation to success.

You and other's also seem to miss the fact that they said previously that you will only need to train 50 percent of the node to advance.... and there goes your 570 days argument. I bet you can get to Plentiful 5 in 1/3rd the time. 





 


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2 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

No, that would be stupid, and Tark was deflecting my main concern here, the lack of a sense of progress. 

If you go back to my post on what tables I think PH should be using, you would see that my suggestion does not even include orange (legendary) material until you have maxed out your progress.

What I do expect, is that if players can hit a POI for thousands of white material whatevers to put into wall, that harvesters have some comparable experience for all the training time they have to sacrifice.

Scarcity of quality is not the same thing as scarcity of quantity and sense of progression.

Maybe you sense that lack of progress because we started out with more powerful potions than we have now and they've been slowly tapering off. We started out with Plentiful 5 and had rank 8's and it has changed perception. 

With all that said I've been noticing progress with several things I've been trying. But those are secrets and I can't divulge that info.


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16 minutes ago, Tark said:

The bolded tells me you don't understand that system. Leadership fully replaces the pots and then some. I get more pips from crafting leadership than I do from the pips pot. I'm almost to the end of the leadership harvesting tree and I've compared the stats between pots vs leadership buff and it is indeed replacing the pots. There are some pots I don't even need to use anymore. You are missing half the equation to success.

You and other's also seem to miss the fact that they said previously that you will only need to train 50 percent of the node to advance.... and there goes your 570 days argument. I bet you can get to Plentiful 5 in 1/3rd the time. 

Leadership isn't my skill, or my characters progress, it's someone else's. Again it's obvious why your view is skewed.

Well from the earlier posts in this thread, the three key factors in harvesting are.

  • Plentiful Harvest
  • Critical Harvest
  • Critical harvest chance.

Two of those three are of the 'Must reach 100% to get anything" variety, and the most important one, the capstone that gets you the fourth PH, and a 10% bump in Critical Chance is at the very end.

I strongly suspect, and I could be wrong, but I really strongly suspect that in order to get to more shards in your training crow cup, the prerequisite is going to be a greater number of shards in the previous cup.  If that is not the case, and you can get 1 shard and move up, and then get 5 shards in the "need 100%" skills, and backfill later, then yes, the 570 days will no longer be accurate.

But my guess is that you won't' be able to train anything further up the line higher than your previous skills, although you may be able to jump to a new branch up the tree.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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1 minute ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Well from the earlier posts in this thread, the three key factors in harvesting are.

  • Plentiful Harvest
  • Critical Harvest
  • Critical harvest chance.

Two of those three are of the 'Must reach 100% to get anything" variety, and the most important one, the capstone that gets you the fourth, is at the very end.

I strongly suspect, and I could be wrong, but I really strongly suspect that in order to get to more shards in your training crow cup, the prerequisite is going to be a greater number of shards in the previous cup.  If that is not the case, and you can get 1 shard and move up, and then get 5 shards in the "need 100%" skills, and backfill later, then yes, the 570 days will no longer be accurate.

But my guess is that you won't' be able to train anything further up the line higher than your previous skills, although you may be able to jump to a new branch up the tree.

That's not how they explained it when they said you'd be able to train 50 percent then advance. My assumption is not based off a guess. This is something that has been said by the developers and they did not say anything about the specific caveat you are talking about. They might have changed their stance on it, but I doubt it.


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3 minutes ago, Tark said:

That's not how they explained it when they said you'd be able to train 50 percent then advance. My assumption is not based off a guess. This is something that has been said by the developers and they did not say anything about the specific caveat you are talking about. They might have changed their stance on it, but I doubt it.

Hope you're right about this, but until I hear from a dev, or they finish the skill re-work, I will operate and comment with the understanding that they historically build systems in the most conservative manner possible, and tend to make very tiny incremental changes to things. Like the pots time from 10-12. 

Letting a person hopscotch around after a single shard or 60%, (there is no 50 in 100/5, just 20,40,60,80,100), would dramatically impact the whole separation of skills they are trying to achieve.  Dabbling quickly, and propelling training to the end nodes is counter to the goal of people focusing on one area exclusively.

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58 minutes ago, Tark said:

The bolded tells me you don't understand that system. Leadership fully replaces the pots and then some. I get more pips from crafting leadership than I do from the pips pot. I'm almost to the end of the leadership harvesting tree and I've compared the stats between pots vs leadership buff and it is indeed replacing the pots. There are some pots I don't even need to use anymore. You are missing half the equation to success.

You and other's also seem to miss the fact that they said previously that you will only need to train 50 percent of the node to advance.... and there goes your 570 days argument. I bet you can get to Plentiful 5 in 1/3rd the time. 

It sounds like the leadership passives are yet another thing that promotes alternate accounts and multi boxing. 1 account for the leadership training and another for harvesting training. The leadership buff hits everyone in the group without having to do anything so you actively harvest on the harvesting trained account and leave the leadership account parked in stealth nearby. Seems ripe for a multi boxed alt account - doesn't even have to be geared so you don't have to worry about losing extra gear sets. Hardest part is just running the second account around but many harvesting nodes are in clusters so it's not that bad especially if it's a naked account with nothing to lose if it dies. 


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6 minutes ago, blazzen said:

It sounds like the leadership passives are yet another thing that promotes alternate accounts and multi boxing. 1 account for the leadership training and another for harvesting training. The leadership buff hits everyone in the group without having to do anything so you actively harvest on the harvesting trained account and leave the leadership account parked in stealth nearby. Seems ripe for a multi boxed alt account - doesn't even have to be geared so you don't have to worry about losing extra gear sets. Hardest part is just running the second account around but many harvesting nodes are in clusters so it's not that bad especially if it's a naked account with nothing to lose if it dies. 

golly tark would never do such a thing

 


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2 minutes ago, blazzen said:

It sounds like the leadership passives are yet another thing that promotes alternate accounts and multi boxing. 1 account for the leadership training and another for harvesting training. The leadership buff hits everyone in the group without having to do anything so you actively harvest on the harvesting trained account and leave the leadership account parked in stealth nearby. Seems ripe for a multi boxed alt account - doesn't even have to be geared so you don't have to worry about losing extra gear sets. Hardest part is just running the second account around but many harvesting nodes are in clusters so it's not that bad especially if it's a naked account with nothing to lose if it dies. 

I've always thought that leadership buff training should be AFTER you have at least one capstone in the related field, or included as part of each of the lines,  and not just shoehorned onto the end of the vessel training line. 

It's a bit daft that you can have zero skills in harvesting, but somehow just standing near by your give people a huge advantage in the task.

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49 minutes ago, blazzen said:

It sounds like the leadership passives are yet another thing that promotes alternate accounts and multi boxing. 1 account for the leadership training and another for harvesting training. The leadership buff hits everyone in the group without having to do anything so you actively harvest on the harvesting trained account and leave the leadership account parked in stealth nearby. Seems ripe for a multi boxed alt account - doesn't even have to be geared so you don't have to worry about losing extra gear sets. Hardest part is just running the second account around but many harvesting nodes are in clusters so it's not that bad especially if it's a naked account with nothing to lose if it dies. 

Sounds like selling more than 1 total copy of the game promotes alternate accounts and multiboxing. 

You are insufferable sometimes with your pessimism.


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6 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

...If some of us are on the verge of yelling, and others getting down right rude (which we shouldn't), it's often because despite the responses from the devs, it doesn't seem like they are hearing what is being said or trying to understand the root of our concerns. I know many a time after a Q&A the original question asker has come of the forums and talked about how the question was misunderstood and an entirely different question was answered. Again that sort of feels dismissive.

WE know what feels bad in the game, or lacks in the feeling good and fun department, because we are feeling it in a way the developers can't, because they don't and shouldn't have time to.

Because of that, our job is to point out where things are not fun, their job is to make changes where needed to make them fun.

I used to believe this too.  You'd think that putting the idea for a mechanic out there for thousands of gamers (people who have a lot of experience with games and what makes them fun) to critique and criticize would be something that game developers would be all over.  I mean that's like a free consulting firm who literally has your future customer's best interests at heart and truly wants your product to succeed.  But game designers are far too prideful to change or scrap their ideas, even when detrimental to the goal of the game: fun.

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46 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

golly tark would never do such a thing

 

Golly it was actually a test and it was to prove that multiboxing isn't very efficient and difficult to maintain. 

You act like you found something I didn't intend for people to see. Such a smart guy you are.

Once again the toxic posts from the likes of Tinnis are going to run Blair off from the thread. Everybody thank Tinnis!


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14 minutes ago, Tark said:

Golly it was actually a test and it was to prove that multiboxing isn't very efficient and difficult to maintain. 

You act like you found something I didn't intend for people to see. Such a smart guy you are.

Once again the toxic posts from the likes of Tinnis are going to run Blair off from the thread. Everybody thank Tinnis!

Oh yes your forum history is exemplary.

Why don't you go back to trolling Sugoi on one of your alt accounts?

http://community-test.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/14664-psugoi-coming-to-crowfall-first-quarter-2017-beta-2-update/

http://community-test.crowfall.com/index.php?/profile/41603-fulcrum/

https://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/profile/41603-tark21/


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1 hour ago, sidney said:

I used to believe this too.  You'd think that putting the idea for a mechanic out there for thousands of gamers (people who have a lot of experience with games and what makes them fun) to critique and criticize would be something that game developers would be all over.  I mean that's like a free consulting firm who literally has your future customer's best interests at heart and truly wants your product to succeed.  But game designers are far too prideful to change or scrap their ideas, even when detrimental to the goal of the game: fun.

I actually still do believe this of ACE.  

I do however think that there is so much theorycrafting and general ruckus in the forums, that the noise to signal ratio is very high. This coupled with the human tendency for extreme confirmation bias in cases where one originates the idea they are holding onto, it's going to take allot more evidence than the usual bitching to convince them where they are having problems with presupposed ideas.

I certainly doesn't help when presenting a case, that someone who is playing the game in a way never really intended or designed for says "it's fine", and reinforces the established confirmation bias.

I figure that once all the system are in, and we do have everything to work with, if it still continues to be a problem we will get more traction with these sorts of complaints.

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1 minute ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I actually still do believe this of ACE.  

I do however think that there is so much theorycrafting and general ruckus in the forums, that the noise to signal ratio is very high. This coupled with the human tendency for extreme confirmation bias in cases where one originates the idea they are holding onto, it's going to take allot more evidence than the usual bitching to convince them where they are having problems with presupposed ideas.

I certainly doesn't help when presenting a case, that someone who is playing the game in a way never really intended or designed for says "it's fine", and reinforces the established confirmation bias.

I figure that once all the system are in, and we do have everything to work with, if it still continues to be a problem we will get more traction with these sorts of complaints.

How am I playing the game in an unintended way? Are there not going to be dedicated miners? Are we not going to have people who take leadership skills? Should these things not be tested?

With all due respect, I believe it is you exhibiting confirmation bias since my method is actually showing how the game would operate once it has matured a bit.


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15 minutes ago, Tark said:

How am I playing the game in an unintended way? Are there not going to be dedicated miners? Are we not going to have people who take leadership skills? Should these things not be tested?

With all due respect, I believe it is you exhibiting confirmation bias since my method is actually showing how the game would operate once it has matured a bit.

You may have deep knowledge about all the independent systems, but you have essentially zero practical experience in how playing the game as intended actually feels.

Every time the issue of ALT accounts comes up, several points are made about how it won't wreck the game because.

  • They expect most players won't do that.
  • They "hope" you will use other players and not do it all yourself.
  • They designed the system so players to have to work together, and not be islands unto themselves.

The fact you are bypassing all the player interdependence by becoming an Island unto yourself, is not the way the game is intended to be played.  If it was, everyone would have 30+ crow slots in their accounts, and be able to train as many skill lines as they like.

So because of all those accounts, your "experiences" are tainted. You have no clue what it is like to have to wait for a single skill to train for three weeks. You have no idea what it's like to have to wait for someone else to login so you can get a piece of special crafted gear.

They didn't intend the game to be played by players using multiple accounts, they have said that many many times.  Just because they look the other way, and shrug their shoulders in defeat and don't actively prevent it, does not mean that's how the game is supposed to be played.

You're basically playing an entirely different game, and having an entirely different experience.  

I'm done arguing with you about this in this thread.  The fact remains, I believe the developers should place ZERO value on your input as it relates to how progress feels in this game, because you are literally progressing at a rate 30+ times faster than everyone else.

From now on, I'm just ignoring your statements here and trying to discuss the core problems with the harvesting experience.

 

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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