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Anhrez

Harvesting Passives ... Why they hurt gatherers

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@Ivellian

When i said using the passive and focusing on other stats i meant focusing on increasing gathering stats. The passive gives plentiful harverst so i would train in critical harverst chance or something like that.

Even if the passive stays for the live game if we focus on training other gathering skills lines we gatherers should still have a edge. The passive also makes us ready to harverst at day 1 which is nice.

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The passives seem like an appropriate way to make Crowfall: Day 1 more tolerable. I won't resort to hyperbole and say that the game is literally unplayable with 0 skills (including 1 plentiful harvest on everything), but.. let's just say it's not fun.

But I think anhrezcf has a point here:

2 hours ago, anhrezcf said:

Why do we need a passive to be useful to start? does that talk to more of an issue in design that we need some crutch to make a primary tab selection useful from the get go?

Shouldn't 1 plentiful harvest be "playable" i.e. fun? By adding in these passives, they're ensuring that no one will ever hit a rock without having 3-5 plentiful. The fact that we're essentially removing 1-2 plentiful from the game makes me wonder why the scale even goes down to 1.

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Again why not set up the skill tree so it is viable day 1. No you won't get a mint worth of purples right away, I am not asking for that. Make some of the basics more useful, trained fast, like 3 hours fast for the starting ones and give some base bonuses in those early nodes.

If they are going 100% passive then they have to be nimble at the start. You have to hook the fish before you pull it into the boat. 

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42 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

@Ivellian

When i said using the passive and focusing on other stats i meant focusing on increasing gathering stats. The passive gives plentiful harverst so i would train in critical harverst chance or something like that.

Even if the passive stays for the live game if we focus on training other gathering skills lines we gatherers should still have a edge. The passive also makes us ready to harverst at day 1 which is nice.

Ah, I see.  Thank you for clarifying.

As you were pointing out then, the passives being limited to Plentiful harvest is also an added benefit compared to the test potions which allowed everyone to get all the benefits of all the stats.

 

I think these are both good points if the passives are to remain:

 

26 minutes ago, Avloren said:

The passives seem like an appropriate way to make Crowfall: Day 1 more tolerable. I won't resort to hyperbole and say that the game is literally unplayable with 0 skills (including 1 plentiful harvest on everything), but.. let's just say it's not fun.

But I think anhrezcf has a point here:

Shouldn't 1 plentiful harvest be "playable" i.e. fun? By adding in these passives, they're ensuring that no one will ever hit a rock without having 3-5 plentiful. The fact that we're essentially removing 1-2 plentiful from the game makes me wonder why the scale even goes down to 1.

 

24 minutes ago, srathor said:

Again why not set up the skill tree so it is viable day 1. No you won't get a mint worth of purples right away, I am not asking for that. Make some of the basics more useful, trained fast, like 3 hours fast for the starting ones and give some base bonuses in those early nodes.

If they are going 100% passive then they have to be nimble at the start. You have to hook the fish before you pull it into the boat. 

 

However, do keep in mind, requiring the passive take up one of three passive slots adds an opportunity cost and might in some way justify the move not to just remove tier 1 and tier 2 plentiful harvest.

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30 minutes ago, Ivellian said:

However, do keep in mind, requiring the passive take up one of three passive slots adds an opportunity cost and might in some way justify the move not to just remove tier 1 and tier 2 plentiful harvest.

This is true, but consider how easy it is to swap passives around now - it's not really an opportunity cost if you can equip the ore passive, mine for an hour, then replace it with your combat passive in time for the big siege. The only cost is a little convenience (and not having your combat passive ready on the off chance you get ganked while gathering).

As Zybak mentioned, ACE does intend to add a cooldown to passive swapping. But my understanding is that the cooldown is only to prevent macroing passive swaps and doing them instantly, even in the middle of combat. I'm expecting something like a 10 second cooldown rather than a 10 hour one. I don't think the intention is to limit manually swapping passives out of combat, say when you're preparing to spend an hour gathering.

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I can see how the harvesting passives would hurt dedicated gatherers to a certain extent...

...HOWEVER...

Harvesters are far more "combat ready" than combatants are "harvesting ready" when you consider the baseline, untrained ability in either area. These passives allow combatants to get to a semi viable but in no way master level of harvesting at an opportunity cost of a passive slot. Harvesters are already semi viable in combat without any training in the general combat tree. 

I think it's a great way to handle this gap. The same holds true for crafting and I believe similar crafting passives are in the works to allow those who haven't trained in crafting the ability to craft low tier advanced gear without training by equipping these passives. 

Edited by blazzen

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2 hours ago, blazzen said:

 

Harvesters are far more "combat ready" than combatants are "harvesting ready" when you consider the baseline, untrained ability in either area. These passives allow combatants to get to a semi viable but in no way master level of harvesting at an opportunity cost of a passive slot. Harvesters are already semi viable in combat without any training in the general combat tree. 

 

I see your point but its got to be more of a gut feeling versus any math to support it right? I can tell you how many days it will take me to train to Plentiful 3 (where we all magically going to start) I have to waste that effort to move to Plentiful 4.  What wasted passive skill effort do crafters and Combat players get during that time?  During the time I am working to Plentiful 3 in Ore, a combat player is deep into their CC defenses and a Crafter is moving to their next pip. these training choice have real time value right now in the world. As I am training to get Plentiful 2 I am earning nothing....

I guess my question is why a passive is needed?  If we don't get enough from Plentiful 1 gather/combat/crafter why create a passive to use a slot just fix the table output. Give the outcome of more lowbie premium ore to those who are not trained allow trained players to get the higher grade like Plentiful harvest was designed to do.


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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I see no issue because you get the same passives anyone else does.  

Nothing is stopping you from using those passives while you train up to render them moot just like nothing is stopping a combat-centric player from using them as they train up their combat skills.  

The benefit is actually to the harvester because eventually they'll be able to use those passives slots to slot something more useful while harvesting *better* than the combat guy who can only get what the harvesting passives allow him, which is less than a trained harvester, and has no free passive slots while harvesting. 

I really don't see the issue here. 


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15 minutes ago, anhrezcf said:

I guess my question is why a passive is needed?  If we don't get enough from Plentiful 1 gather/combat/crafter why create a passive to use a slot just fix the table output. Give the outcome of more lowbie premium ore to those who are not trained allow trained players to get the higher grade like Plentiful harvest was designed to do.

I'd prefer this to be honest but ACE wants there to be some kind of tradeoff and they decided to make it a passive. 

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26 minutes ago, blazzen said:

I'd prefer this to be honest but ACE wants there to be some kind of tradeoff and they decided to make it a passive. 

I am right there with you ... it feels like a fix without an issue. is the issue that there is a concern the game will be less fun as the first 4 weeks such bad outcomes are had by non-traded miners (etc) that it can hurt the overall game?

 

32 minutes ago, chodie said:

The benefit is actually to the harvester because eventually they'll be able to use those passives slots to slot something more useful while harvesting *better* than the combat guy who can only get what the harvesting passives allow him, which is less than a trained harvester, and has no free passive slots while harvesting. 

its a benefit without a reason ... If 3 is the magic number why have a 1-2 ? baseline the Plentiful 3 as the staring point allow gatherers to build upon it ... no passives needed for anyone? 


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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11 minutes ago, anhrezcf said:

its a benefit without a reason ... If 3 is the magic number why have a 1-2 ? baseline the Plentiful 3 as the staring point allow gatherers to build upon it ... no passives needed for anyone? 

I believe the reason stated was it is a catch-up mechanic for newbies starting the game post soft-launch. 


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7 hours ago, anhrezcf said:

I see your point but its got to be more of a gut feeling versus any math to support it right? I can tell you how many days it will take me to train to Plentiful 3 (where we all magically going to start) I have to waste that effort to move to Plentiful 4.  What wasted passive skill effort do crafters and Combat players get during that time?  During the time I am working to Plentiful 3 in Ore, a combat player is deep into their CC defenses and a Crafter is moving to their next pip. these training choice have real time value right now in the world. As I am training to get Plentiful 2 I am earning nothing....

I guess my question is why a passive is needed?  If we don't get enough from Plentiful 1 gather/combat/crafter why create a passive to use a slot just fix the table output. Give the outcome of more lowbie premium ore to those who are not trained allow trained players to get the higher grade like Plentiful harvest was designed to do.

These plentiful 3 passive is NOT gonna be the only harvesting passives you can slot in your 3 passive slots, you will be able to get a bunch of other harvesting passives from disc etc later that have to compete for the slots, so it is very possible there is something else you want to slot there instead.

 

I could turn this whole argument on its head and say why are the gather guys getting the weapon finesse passive to get a better power cost multiplier when they are training for gathering? But you know what? I wont, because it would be equally silly...

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I have no problem with combat players gathering at a decent rate. I do have a problem with poorly made socksty skill trees that force me to waste time training to get over a passive skill that everyone can use with no training time. The passive Plentiful rank 3 is every node of 1 line: ore, wood, stone. It will take years to match it in training. It is a static fix to a poorly made socksty skills tree. 

Make the skill tree better. Instead of a plentiful harvest pip in the general tree for just knotwood make it all wood. Same for ore and stone. Add another plentiful harvest pip at the start of each of the more targeted trees in the gathering lines. That lets the actual gatherers get rid of the opportunity cost much much quicker, and allows for much more fair risk and reward. It also will reward the gatherers more depth and breadth of training that feels useful.

The basics tree should be quite useful in it's own right. So that maybe the combat monster might take some of the faster learning skills there making them a bit more well rounded. It would make for a much better game overall if people were out doing things on a main rather than a collection of specialized alts. 

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Would you like something like this?

 

Put the passives as unlocks in the respective tree? Unlock the mining passive with X% of mining trained. You still have to choose to slot it but you have to be invested in training mining skills somewhat to get it.

 


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13 minutes ago, Yoink said:

Would you like something like this?

 

Put the passives as unlocks in the respective tree? Unlock the mining passive with X% of mining trained. You still have to choose to slot it but you have to be invested in training mining skills somewhat to get it.

 

I like where you head is at, seems like many things in the passive training trees have gates.

I guess it troubles me to think passives could used as the tool to shore up things. With passive training comes 'choices' and since kick starter we were told players were going to have to make them and not be good at everything.

If there are to be Gathering/Crafting passives tie them to a Discipline stone ... you want to gather then you swap out but to do so is not taking a few seconds to hit K and move on , your swapping is a choice that has impact. If I want to be better at resisting Crowd Control but I have not trained into Defense Control I need to slot Escape Artist,  I am forced to make a choice that has consequence and cost in my skills selection.

I'd be just fine if they limit any Combat passives to Class, Race or Discipline stone as those all forces choices where we decide to do A at the possible cost of B and C. 

 

Edited by anhrezcf

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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17 hours ago, anhrezcf said:

I see your point but its got to be more of a gut feeling versus any math to support it right? I can tell you how many days it will take me to train to Plentiful 3 (where we all magically going to start) I have to waste that effort to move to Plentiful 4.  What wasted passive skill effort do crafters and Combat players get during that time?  During the time I am working to Plentiful 3 in Ore, a combat player is deep into their CC defenses and a Crafter is moving to their next pip. these training choice have real time value right now in the world. As I am training to get Plentiful 2 I am earning nothing....

I guess my question is why a passive is needed?  If we don't get enough from Plentiful 1 gather/combat/crafter why create a passive to use a slot just fix the table output. Give the outcome of more lowbie premium ore to those who are not trained allow trained players to get the higher grade like Plentiful harvest was designed to do.

But is that really true?

Once you don't need that passive, you can slot a different passive.  Maybe a stamina one.

All they really need to do is change the rule from "No stacking", to "No stacking above 3", and you can replace those slots one at a time with something else as you train them.

It also gives a big improvement once they implement the partial training.  If all the "Must train to 100% skills" get passive discs, spreading around the tree rather than focusing deeply into those, and treating them like capstones that free up a passive slot, suddenly that model actually works. 

I am also pretty sure whatever you want to slot in your passive is going to be a tough choice.  Trading plentiful harvest 3 for something that ups your AP or HP's, or other combat items could be a real tough choice.

I think you may be only looking at what they get, and not what they give up.

I do agree the early table outputs all need a bump.  There is just no way for a dedicated harvester to support 12-14 players with the given numbers.

Not sure about the high quality, hard to figure out that balance with BP's and bootstrapping.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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16 hours ago, anhrezcf said:

I am right there with you ... it feels like a fix without an issue. is the issue that there is a concern the game will be less fun as the first 4 weeks such bad outcomes are had by non-traded miners (etc) that it can hurt the overall game?

 

its a benefit without a reason ... If 3 is the magic number why have a 1-2 ? baseline the Plentiful 3 as the staring point allow gatherers to build upon it ... no passives needed for anyone? 

Well the issue is that the baseline harvesting (and crafting) ability of a player without training is nill whereas someone without training in the general combat tree not only still gets to train in combat related things in the archetype trees they also have a pretty solid baseline where they can at least compete (kill mobs and other players). The harvesting (and soon to come crafting) passives are a way to bridge this gap. 

I do agree with your second point though about the baseline. I made a post on the dev forums that was literally titled "increase the baseline" but ACE's solution was to give these passives so there would be a trade off instead of just increasing the overall baseline. 

I'm okay with it as long as the passives stay relatively easy to swap, otherwise, I'd just make it so everyone can harvest low rank advanced materials without training and then have training provide access to the higher ranks. 

Overall I think EACH skill tree (combat, harvesting, crafting AND archetype) need to have progression flattened out a bit. There's a pretty big gap between someone who is and isn't trained and as this game gets older the gap between new player and veteran will be too large IMO. 

I'm still of the opinion that VIP granting 3 general trains is the way to go but I don't want to get into that argument again in this thread and I do think the passives are an okay middle ground. The one thing the passives fail to do is decentivize alternate accounts but at least combat people won't be completely useless as harvesters. 

Edited by blazzen

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23 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I think you may be only looking at what they get, and not what they give up.

I do agree the early table outputs all need a bump.  There is just no way for a dedicated harvester to support 12-14 players with the given numbers.

Not sure about the high quality, hard to figure out that balance with BP's and bootstrapping.

 

this is a fair critique .... I am looking at what others get versus what I train for. But a passive with no tie to a Discipline is a simple Click to enable so what does a player give up for the 38 seconds to chop down a tree? they gain a much friendlier output table (plentiful 3 versus plentiful 1) and they loose a combat passive till they are done and poof back again.

The need for a few dedicated harvesters to not only keep their group much less their guild in equipment is a math problem i have yet to see anyone really tackle as the output is has so many variables. I see the reason why non-crafters, when not at risk, would want to pick up anything they can to help the cause just like gatherers need to toss in some DPS when the walls are about to be breached. Figuring out how good each of those player sets should be at their off role is probably the real dialog of the thread I guess?

Edited by anhrezcf

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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39 minutes ago, anhrezcf said:

this is a fair critique .... I am looking at what others get versus what I train for. But a passive with no tie to a Discipline is a simple Click to enable so what does a player give up for the 38 seconds to chop down a tree? they gain a much friendlier output table (plentiful 3 versus plentiful 1) and they loose a combat passive till they are done and poof back again.

The need for a few dedicated harvesters to not only keep their group much less their guild in equipment is a math problem i have yet to see anyone really tackle as the output is has so many variables. I see the reason why non-crafters, when not at risk, would want to pick up anything they can to help the cause just like gatherers need to toss in some DPS when the walls are about to be breached. Figuring out how good each of those player sets should be at their off role is probably the real dialog of the thread I guess?

Simple fix for the first paragraph, screw the timer to switch, only allow that passive switch at temple.

42 minutes ago, blazzen said:

 

I'm still of the opinion that VIP granting 3 general trains is the way to go but I don't want to get into that argument again in this thread and I do think the passives are an okay middle ground. The one thing the passives fail to do is decentivize alternate accounts but at least combat people won't be completely useless as harvesters. 

They could build a VIP only passive line.  If you have VIP, you can equip the harvesting/crafting passives so you can play a bit of all three roles.  

Of they could have the passive block only allow for choosing the same passive multiple times if your VIP.  So you could slot only one plentiful harvest passive non-VIP, but 3 if you were VIP.

As it's not the 'only' way to get those abilities. Off to the Partners forum with that suggestion.

 

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57 minutes ago, anhrezcf said:

this is a fair critique .... I am looking at what others get versus what I train for. But a passive with no tie to a Discipline is a simple Click to enable so what does a player give up for the 38 seconds to chop down a tree? they gain a much friendlier output table (plentiful 3 versus plentiful 1) and they loose a combat passive till they are done and poof back again.

In the current version of CF, discipline runes cost one piece of slag to craft...

In the "real" version of the game this is going to be much more expensive.

I don't think that players are going to be swapping around disciplines willy-nilly

 

 

 


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