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Anhrez

Harvesting Passives ... Why they hurt gatherers

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15 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Yea I read that the first time.

Personally I'm biased, but I prefer my solution.

 

Also a good idea. Maybe we can put them both together. You didnt cover crit chance and crit amount in your suggestion. 

 

If we take your table (which should give more higher grade materials, its a rank 10 node) and say crits increase the rarity and get rid of crit amount.

The block thing you suggested looks interesting, but if it cant be implemented, cut that and only take the bigger table... But I somehow love the caravan thing. It will give some depth to harvesting. You need to train harvesting to get better quality materials and higher quantities, but you are also a profitable target to your enemies, so you need to be protected by your allies.

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6 hours ago, why_me said:

Also a good idea. Maybe we can put them both together. You didnt cover crit chance and crit amount in your suggestion. 

 

If we take your table (which should give more higher grade materials, its a rank 10 node) and say crits increase the rarity and get rid of crit amount.

The block thing you suggested looks interesting, but if it cant be implemented, cut that and only take the bigger table... But I somehow love the caravan thing. It will give some depth to harvesting. You need to train harvesting to get better quality materials and higher quantities, but you are also a profitable target to your enemies, so you need to be protected by your allies.

Crit chance and crit amount came later in the thread.

Actually, that particular link is the solution I liked best because it separated the passives skills from the trained skills.  That way the passive would always be useful, and something harvesters would use, rather than something they eventually out grow.

The Block/Caravan thing I am pretty sure is a done deal, because it is needed to support the lumberyards and other POI's that will produce thousands of a material at a time. They have now talked twice about how having resources from those sources will put a strong snare on players, so that the trying to drag them around without pack mules will be... awkward.

I suspect the primary reason we have not seen them, is they have not gotten to those pack animals.

Three videos that go into it. Video two at around 3:00 talks the most about blocks.

1   2   3  

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Here is the real rub...  and why there is currently no longer ANY incentive to train for potential harvest at least for testing.  The pips are pretty much the last thing you train in each branch and training those two now do NOTHING for the gatherer toon besides free up the major disc and one passive slot, something that is unrelated to a gathering build.  Furthermore, you essentially should not go without gather passive because you want to get other materials as well and for off trained harvest, the laborer passive is just way too good at 3 pips.  If a gatherer simply goes the first 4 nodes in each familiarity branch you have far more versatility (all the crit chance and amount) while sacrificing the already wasted time to get a natural three pip in just one type of node.  The smart move is the two mandatory 100% skill nodes and 80% on the crit and tool dura nodes for each branch and let the laborer plus pot give the 4 pips ON ANY MATERIAL!  No longer are we incentivized to dive deep but surely are to stop short (just up to the first plentiful node).  This is blatant design flaw...   why train for the extra 172 days to get very little benefit then finally get that 5th elusive pip for 187 days training?

In 7 months we will be at soft launch reset pretty much for certain.

 

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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3 minutes ago, Frykka said:

Here is the real rub...  and why there is currently no longer ANY incentive to train for potential harvest at least for testing.  The pips are pretty much the last thing you train in each branch and training those two now do NOTHING for the gatherer toon besides free up the major disc and one passive slot, something that is unrelated to a gathering build.  Furthermore, you essentially should not go without regather passive because you want to get other materials as well and for off trained harvest, the laborer passive is just way too good at 3 pips.  If a gatherer simply goes the first 4 nodes in each familiarity branch you have far more versatility (all the crit chance and amount) while sacrificing the already wasted time to get a natural three pip in just one type of node.  The smart move is the two mandatory 100% skill nodes and 80% on the crit and tool dura nodes for each branch and let the laborer plus pot give the 4 pips ON ANY MATERIAL!  No longer are we incentivized to dive deep but surely are to stop short (just up to the first plentiful node).  This is blatant design flaw...   why train for the extra 172 days to get very little benefit then finally get that 5th elusive pip for 187 days training?

 

Just wanted to point out the bold sentence.  

Up until now I have mostly been focusing on the effect it has on the line you're trained in, and how it makes thost 172 all but pointless, but in reality this is even more critical.

With a single discipline you can be as effective in all the harvesting lines. This totally destroys the goal of diversification in training until the absolute end of the process. No small steps, and no real greater access. Simply build a few different suits of gear for each material type, run the passive, make the pot, and find a leader, and you're close enough in being as good as a trained harvester, that taking the training is actually a waste of time.

The only exception may be in the dregs and tier 9-10 nodes, where you can actually find the highest quality resource nodes and they are hard to take down, but for every other band, you simply don't even need the training to get what you need.

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I've said this a few times, but I don't think labourer is that big of a deal, because P3 is really not that big of a deal.  It has almost zero impact in terms of wood/stone/ore over P2 (which there is already trainingless access to), the main thing it does is give more access to dust.  If laborer + potion stack that seems like a problem?  But for some reason I've assumed that that won't be the case long term.

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59 minutes ago, canvox said:

I've said this a few times, but I don't think labourer is that big of a deal, because P3 is really not that big of a deal.  It has almost zero impact in terms of wood/stone/ore over P2 (which there is already trainingless access to), the main thing it does is give more access to dust.  If laborer + potion stack that seems like a problem?  But for some reason I've assumed that that won't be the case long term.

How about P4?  With passive and the alchemical pot that requires real resources, the one they intend to be in the final game and not test, any untrained player can hit P4 in under 20 minutes of play.

Those stack with the passive, but the trained skill does not.  If it did, I don't think the complaint would be so bad. Getting to P5 via 2 passive and 2 trained would be allot less trouble to stomach than the current ability to ignore training completely to get to P4.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Just now, KrakkenSmacken said:

How about P4?  With passive and the alchemical pot that requires real resources, the one they intend to be in the final game and not test, any untrained player can hit P4 in under 20 minutes of play.

Those stack, but the trained skill does not.  

Is that actually the plan for release, that laborer & potion stack?

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52 minutes ago, canvox said:

I've said this a few times, but I don't think labourer is that big of a deal, because P3 is really not that big of a deal.  It has almost zero impact in terms of wood/stone/ore over P2 (which there is already trainingless access to), the main thing it does is give more access to dust.  If laborer + potion stack that seems like a problem?  But for some reason I've assumed that that won't be the case long term.

That is a problem itself. Still cant get over the fact you have to get P4 to actually see any improvement. P1-P3 is just a waste of time, they should look at that.

The passives were introduced to fix the gap until we get to P3, they should try to fix the problem and not add more.

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9 minutes ago, canvox said:

Is that actually the plan for release, that laborer & potion stack?

I think Blair said he was pondering that particular behavior.  The fact is the potion and the leadership training are supposed to overlap with each other.  If one is on, the other isn't.

I personally think that is the biggest mistake with the extremely shallow curve on PH (total range, +4 because the first is free).  I think EVERYTHING should stack, and there should be enough room in the PH table so there are several ways to the cap, instead of the current model of only one (P4 via Training and +1P from pot or leadership).

It would be better if you could get to P5 via (Passive +2, Training +2), so a trained harvester gets SOMETHING for that "early" training, rather than waiting for 540 days to get the capstone and push it to 4.

This training puddle is so shallow even a toddler wouldn't find it fun to jump into for a splash.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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