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Anhrez

Harvesting Passives ... Why they hurt gatherers

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4 minutes ago, narsille said:

In the current version of CF, discipline runes cost one piece of slag to craft...

In the "real" version of the game this is going to be much more expensive.

I don't think that players are going to be swapping around disciplines willy-nilly

 

you are correct and your point is a solid one. If the Gathering buffs were tied to a Discipline stone (even a minor) the desire to swap around willy-nilly would drop significantly because of the real cost associated with changing out and loosing a passive of value. Right now there is no tie to Gathering passives and a stone so ... no expense at all 


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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7 minutes ago, anhrezcf said:

you are correct and your point is a solid one. If the Gathering buffs were tied to a Discipline stone (even a minor) the desire to swap around willy-nilly would drop significantly because of the real cost associated with changing out and loosing a passive of value. Right now there is no tie to Gathering passives and a stone so ... no expense at all 

What they could do is put the recipe for the discipline stone, in that tree's training line.

So what diversification means, is having to train at least one node into the tree to get the recipe, before being able to take advantage of 3x boost of the passive.  I would put it early, like second node basics, but not first.

I actually think all the rune crafting recipes should be scattered into the various training trees, so that to make the rune, you first need to know how to use the skill. 

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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I thought passives were like disciplines in that you needed a stone to be able to equip them.  that would make sense to me in that you could switch them out at any time providing you had another passive stone available to burn.  They wouldn't be as expensive to make as disciplines but would still require time and resources so you won't be switching them out constantly.

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All of you are going on with what ifs. That all cost the gatherer more than the other people. 

Why not make the skill tree better?

I mean come on. Add some in basic. Add one in the next tier up. And gatherers early on get a benefit and feel like they are getting more than a .05% increase.

I like gathering, I like making stuff. I kinda like pvp when it is not toooo rapey. The gathering tree kinda sucks at the moment. I want it to not suck. I don't want 100 what if band-aid fixes all that take away from the gatherers chances to slot things. They are already slotting the most important thing. the god damned general gathering skill. That is the first opportunity cost, along with gathering gear with no combat stats, soon to be non combat discs, a soon to be spirit bank that is far away.

Gathering players right now are on nightmare mode, and yall are quibbling over bowchickawowwowing them a little rather than a lot.

Come on!

 

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One thing to note is that we haven't seen any of the gathering or crafting disciplines yet. The passives granted by these could far outweigh the passives and someone who didn't have to slot the "ore plentiful harvest" jump starter passive in order to slot 3 other better ore gathering passives would have a leg up. This example rings true with combat players and the weapon finesse passive. There's so many other juicy things that you'd rather take if you just didn't have to worry about finesse. Not to mention the resources you get with just the passives is 90% crap. I'd imagine a trained gatherer would be seeing a ton more greens, blues, and purps.

I do agree that the gathering skill tree feels oppressive right now and it would be great to see some more general ore,stone,etc gathering skills before you get into the specific node types. Though we should all keep in mind that last we heard the skill system is changing from the 0-100% to a more milestone, ala Eve, skill training. So getting beneficial harvest 3 in all ores would something be like training one to get level 5. 

 

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10 hours ago, Zachdidit said:

One thing to note is that we haven't seen any of the gathering or crafting disciplines yet. The passives granted by these could far outweigh the passives and someone who didn't have to slot the "ore plentiful harvest" jump starter passive in order to slot 3 other better ore gathering passives would have a leg up. This example rings true with combat players and the weapon finesse passive. There's so many other juicy things that you'd rather take if you just didn't have to worry about finesse. Not to mention the resources you get with just the passives is 90% crap. I'd imagine a trained gatherer would be seeing a ton more greens, blues, and purps.

I do agree that the gathering skill tree feels oppressive right now and it would be great to see some more general ore,stone,etc gathering skills before you get into the specific node types. Though we should all keep in mind that last we heard the skill system is changing from the 0-100% to a more milestone, ala Eve, skill training. So getting beneficial harvest 3 in all ores would something be like training one to get level 5. 

 

I'm going to go back and modify what I said about a few things earlier, but let's start with addressing the bold point.

2wkejOb.jpg

I currently have 150 days of training into copper ore, more if you count the other ore types, but let's stick to the one I have the most of. I also have zero specific training for wood types, which is what I use as my experience counterpoint. I do have one universal plentiful harvest, so this is not a from zero experience, but I do have zero benefit from criticals etc trained in the wood lines.

Last night I decided to see what it felt like to swap between the passive, and non-passive experience. I did this with zero mining specific gear, as I wanted to get a sense of progression without gear reliance, under the assumption that if it requires gear to get a sense of progression, then gear is more valuable than training, and would therefore make training less important or needed.

What I noticed, was that despite 150 days of training, and almost the entire copper line being complete, I FELT no significant difference between passive training amounts and quality, and the bump given by the passive discipline. Basically the experience now tells me that the OP is basically correct, that with the current numbers, and current productivity, those extra stats really don't make enough of a difference to justify the amount of time required to obtain the skills.

After mining enough iron to make a two handed sword, (around 100, or 20ish nodes), I received not a single resource that was better than white on nodes that were tier 5 or better.  (EDIT: I harvested an identical amount of both Iron and Copper. Iron with the desc, and copper with trained skills. Both produced identical results). I was using a 9% mining buff pick for most of the work.

I also tried the same with some ash wood, putting the disc buff off and and on, to see the impact, as well as taking the disc off to test ores I have not trained yet. It was a clear volume of poor materials boost on all resources not copper, but the buff totally eclipsed any of the other resource related buffs, so that in essence it felt like, with or without the buff, I had the same mathematical results as if I was on copper, which has no advantage for using the disc at this point in my training.

This is not a good user experience, and the OP is correct. I do not think however the solution is to remove the disc. I think it is doing a wonderful job of what it is supposed to. To allow new players to have a temporary baseline production that allows them to acquire basic items prior to engaging with other players. It does make the solo start and discovery period viable. I was able to build a basic two handed sword out of Iron in about 2 hours of play, including messing around a bit with the discs.

What it does clearly demonstrate is a problem with the middle game as it relates to harvesting. There is no sense of accomplishment, no sense of growth, and no sense of improvement in quality via training.  That is the real problem right now.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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We have a good example of the numbers in what the potions do now.
Why were they made in such high numbers? Compare training to the potions and I just shake my head. The numbers do not make sense. Same with the gear from armor. The numbers are puny. All the training and all the best gear in the game with all amazing rolls don't match up with the 4 potions of a month ago. 

Wait and see, gripe and moan, argue and cajole, PRE-ALPHA!

The numbers are going to be whatever Blair has time for and feels like and I am pretty sure working on gathering for him is like gathering itself for us. A chore. 

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45 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

What I noticed, was that despite 150 days of training, and almost the entire copper line being complete, I FELT no significant difference between passive training amounts and quality, and the bump given by the passive discipline. Basically the experience now tells me that the OP is basically correct, that with the current numbers, and current productivity, those extra stats really don't make enough of a difference to justify the amount of time required to obtain the skills.

After mining enough iron to make a two handed sword, (around 100, or 20ish nodes), I received not a single resource that was better than white on nodes that were tier 5 or better.  I was using a 9% mining buff pick for most of the work.

I don't disagree that right now the gathering line feels oppressive. But assuming the bolded words aren't typos, you trained into copper and mined iron ore with little to no benefit. Yeah that's how the system is designed and it's oppressive because this isn't implemented yet:

9 hours ago, Zachdidit said:


I do agree that the gathering skill tree feels oppressive right now and it would be great to see some more general ore,stone,etc gathering skills before you get into the specific node types. Though we should all keep in mind that last we heard the skill system is changing from the 0-100% to a more milestone, ala Eve, skill training. So getting beneficial harvest 3 in all ores would something be like training one to get level 5

 

Instead of having to go 100% into each of the copper lines to be a master you'd be going you'd spend that same time going through in all ores to get a pretty respectable bonus from their lines.

Also as far as I've heard the mining,stonecutting, etc stats only affect how quickly and efficiently you harvest nodes of varying ranks. Better skill better node. You did your tests on rank 5 nodes. A true test would see how well you fair against higher ranked nodes with 0 skill and higher skill. The passives have no affect on what nodes you can harvest. You higher level skills will let you knock down those rank 7,8,9,10's that'll give you better quality resources. Newbros with passives just won't be able to do that. source: https://crowfall.com/en/news/harvesting-redux/ 

I do not discount that there's going to be need to balance out the numbers but we sadly don't have the bigger picture in game right now to make nail on the head suggestions. 

 

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34 minutes ago, Zachdidit said:

 

1.) I don't disagree that right now the gathering line feels oppressive. But assuming the bolded words aren't typos, you trained into copper and mined iron ore with little to no benefit. Yeah that's how the system is designed and it's oppressive because this isn't implemented yet:

Instead of having to go 100% into each of the copper lines to be a master you'd be going you'd spend that same time going through in all ores to get a pretty respectable bonus from their lines.

Also as far as I've heard the mining,stonecutting, etc stats only affect how quickly and efficiently you harvest nodes of varying ranks. Better skill better node. You did your tests on rank 5 nodes. A true test would see how well you fair against higher ranked nodes with 0 skill and higher skill. The passives have no affect on what nodes you can harvest. You higher level skills will let you knock down those rank 7,8,9,10's that'll give you better quality resources. Newbros with passives just won't be able to do that. source: https://crowfall.com/en/news/harvesting-redux/ 

I do not discount that there's going to be need to balance out the numbers but we sadly don't have the bigger picture in game right now to make nail on the head suggestions. 

 

As it's worded, yea it's a bit foggy.  I edited the version I put in the developers forums and not this one to make it more clear.

What I did was mine 100 of BOTH types of ore.  One I used discs on (Iron), and one I used no disks (copper). In both cases I had identical results.  5-7 doobers per node, zero doobers of greater quality than white. So that 150 days of training and focus into copper has zero net improvement in results.

Rank 5 nodes are 50% of the way to the maximum node value. If after 150 days of training the best I can hope for from a 50% higher quality than zero node is the exact same quality and quantity as a tier 0 node (slag), there is a problem.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I'm going to go back and modify what I said about a few things earlier, but let's start with addressing the bold point.

2wkejOb.jpg

I currently have 150 days of training into copper ore, more if you count the other ore types, but let's stick to the one I have the most of. I also have zero specific training for wood types, which is what I use as my experience counterpoint. I do have one universal plentiful harvest, so this is not a from zero experience, but I do have zero benefit from criticals etc trained in the wood lines.

Last night I decided to see what it felt like to swap between the passive, and non-passive experience. I did this with zero mining specific gear, as I wanted to get a sense of progression without gear reliance, under the assumption that if it requires gear to get a sense of progression, then gear is more valuable than training, and would therefore make training less important or needed.

What I noticed, was that despite 150 days of training, and almost the entire copper line being complete, I FELT no significant difference between passive training amounts and quality, and the bump given by the passive discipline. Basically the experience now tells me that the OP is basically correct, that with the current numbers, and current productivity, those extra stats really don't make enough of a difference to justify the amount of time required to obtain the skills.

After mining enough iron to make a two handed sword, (around 100, or 20ish nodes), I received not a single resource that was better than white on nodes that were tier 5 or better.  I was using a 9% mining buff pick for most of the work.

I also tried the same with some ash wood, putting the disc buff off and and on, to see the impact, as well as taking the disc off to test ores I have not trained yet. It was a clear volume of poor materials boost on all resources not copper, but the buff totally eclipsed any of the other resource related buffs, so that in essence it felt like, with or without the buff, I had the same mathematical results as if I was on copper, which has no advantage for using the disc at this point in my training.

This is not a good user experience, and the OP is correct. I do not think however the solution is to remove the disc. I think it is doing a wonderful job of what it is supposed to. To allow new players to have a temporary baseline production that allows them to acquire basic items prior to engaging with other players. It does make the solo start and discovery period viable. I was able to build a basic two handed sword out of Iron in about 2 hours of play, including messing around a bit with the discs.

What it does clearly demonstrate is a problem with the middle game as it relates to harvesting. There is no sense of accomplishment, no sense of growth, and no sense of improvement in quality via training.  That is the real problem right now.

Thanks for putting into words with the math of what I have been feeling lately in my gathering ... I have less specific Ore than you spec'd as I added a lot of the optional mats to dabble.

So does the baseline need to change? a catch up mechanic may not really needed if the base line is a reasonable amount to get a basic weapon , basic armor crafted without deep training. 


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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Just now, anhrezcf said:

Thanks for putting into words with the math of what I have been feeling lately in my gathering ... I have less specific Ore than you spec'd as I added a lot of the optional mats to dabble.

So does the baseline need to change? a catch up mechanic may not really needed if the base line is a reasonable amount to get a basic weapon , basic armor crafted without deep training. 

This is what I added to my post in the developer's forums, about how I think it should go.

Quote

Summary: Discs seem to fix the early game, but the mid game (1-6 months), now lacks the feeling and sense of progress. 150 days and not able to get a single green out of a tier 5 node without specialized equipment is just not fun.

I am back to thinking what is needed is a modification to the below table, and the growing of it to 25 tiers instead of 5 of plentiful harvest,(one for each blue shard in the training bird of prey), so that more incremental and noticeable advancements can be made.

With that change, making the current disc go to level 5 at current level 3 volumes, with each trained level being allowed to stack, you would get a constant sense of advancement without stalling until you pass the disc, as well as the ability to max out individual skill by either having a trained leader, OR giving up the passive slot to the disc.

To overcome the problem of making volumes too high, and to add in the need for pack animals, you could simply have higher levels drop unrefined blocks of materials (10-15) that have the slowing effect or lossy split behavior.L1MmfBl.jpg

 

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I really don't think adding a leg-up for a perceived problem in a system is a good ide when the system could simply be tweaked.

When it comes down to it, playing the game should be enjoyable and not a chore. So, if no one's gathering a feasible enough amount of materials until they've trained for X days (which I think is a fundamental flaw in the passive-skill-training system... But that's a separate point), then the simplest solution is to tweak the base amount of resources a "lvl 1" harvester is able to procure.

Let's not overcomplicate the path to a goal. 8). The more "build options" (for lack of a better term) you put in like this, the more compounded their interactions become.

Edited by Lephys
I thought about a better, more concise way of stating my point.

This post brought to you by...
Lephys. Because everything's better with a smile facepalm.

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On 5/26/2017 at 11:07 AM, srathor said:

We have a good example of the numbers in what the potions do now.
Why were they made in such high numbers? Compare training to the potions and I just shake my head. The numbers do not make sense. Same with the gear from armor. The numbers are puny. All the training and all the best gear in the game with all amazing rolls don't match up with the 4 potions of a month ago. 

Wait and see, gripe and moan, argue and cajole, PRE-ALPHA!

The numbers are going to be whatever Blair has time for and feels like and I am pretty sure working on gathering for him is like gathering itself for us. A chore. 

Feel the love! (Also enjoy the NK farmer comment someone else had in there). I have definitely been immersed in getting the Discipline system finished and into your hands for many weeks, and weekends have been occupied with my extra credit Disciplines of Bard/Troub and associated minors completed (with how these turned out, it was definitely worth the weekend time). There is no doubt more to do on harvesting/crafting system/disciplines, probably in conjunction with the p2 implementation of crafting. As always a tremendous amount of things to juggle, and we will try to get as many passes on every system as possible.

 

On 5/24/2017 at 11:02 AM, anhrezcf said:

 

 

I don't think passive Gathering should be in for Combat, Crafters or Gatherers players. 

Why do we need a passive to be useful to start? does that talk to more of an issue in design that we need some crutch to make a primary tab selection useful from the get go? 

At launch we all suck gathering, as I spend my time training as a gatherer I suck less at gathering and combat/crafter ppl still suck at gathering. If its the output volume from the nodes that has the devs concerned then that should be one of the 'knobs' we hear about instead of faking training for everyone. I realize its my opinion but hey that what the forums are for. 

 

 

The passives to the basic resource type are a good solution to jump starting the economy. Sure we could just boost the basetables, which would wreck the progression curve, which we purposely do try to keep flatter than typical MMORPG exponential curves. However the basic boost passives are on the table for reassignment to specific racial disciplines.

The folks who focus in harvesting will be substantially better with much more crits, crit amounts, less tool decay, open up more advanced types like GD, get unique items from nodes, and be able to clear higher rank nodes better, as well as eventually break the 3/4 plethora barrier (I am still considering if the +1 from Alch and or Group Leader should stack at all with the passive)

 

As for the testing of the pleth 4/5 vs passive, thanks for the experiment bu please try it again on nodes higher than rank 5. The nodes in Bloodbath should mostly be 8+. If you notice the table someone linked above from an older update there is no possible way for the current boost passives to get you to epic/leg qualities. (even more so if the stacking is removed)

Also look at these as one of my experiments for passives to put on the harvesting/racial disciplines.

 

 


Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
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There are lots of fair points around here, and I agree with the concerns of harvesters. Surely, a perk shouldn't give the equivalent of months of training for free just to kickstart the economy. Waiting months of training to barely reach the level of the perk in a single resource type is not fun.

 

I would like to propose a slight modification:
Yes, the perks should stay and provide a resource boost to kickstart the economy.
In return, how about the perks severely reduce your chances of getting quality material? Either reduce the chances, or remove them completely.

We could call it "Careless Mining" "Rushed Harvesting" or something similar. You harvest more, but disregard quality.

In that regard, since you are paying a cost (lower quality output), I would even agree to let the passive stack with everything else.
It would be a great help for low level players since you cannot get any lower than white so it's basically a free bonus ressource, but a good harvester focusing on quality will quickly be above the flood of white items and have no use for that passive.

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11 hours ago, thomasblair said:

Feel the love! (Also enjoy the NK farmer comment someone else had in there). I have definitely been immersed in getting the Discipline system finished and into your hands for many weeks, and weekends have been occupied with my extra credit Disciplines of Bard/Troub and associated minors completed (with how these turned out, it was definitely worth the weekend time). There is no doubt more to do on harvesting/crafting system/disciplines, probably in conjunction with the p2 implementation of crafting. As always a tremendous amount of things to juggle, and we will try to get as many passes on every system as possible.

 

The passives to the basic resource type are a good solution to jump starting the economy. Sure we could just boost the basetables, which would wreck the progression curve, which we purposely do try to keep flatter than typical MMORPG exponential curves. However the basic boost passives are on the table for reassignment to specific racial disciplines.

The folks who focus in harvesting will be substantially better with much more crits, crit amounts, less tool decay, open up more advanced types like GD, get unique items from nodes, and be able to clear higher rank nodes better, as well as eventually break the 3/4 plethora barrier (I am still considering if the +1 from Alch and or Group Leader should stack at all with the passive)

 

As for the testing of the pleth 4/5 vs passive, thanks for the experiment bu please try it again on nodes higher than rank 5. The nodes in Bloodbath should mostly be 8+. If you notice the table someone linked above from an older update there is no possible way for the current boost passives to get you to epic/leg qualities. (even more so if the stacking is removed)

Also look at these as one of my experiments for passives to put on the harvesting/racial disciplines.

 

 

First off, thanks for jumping into the discussion and addressing my testing.

I noticed those limits in the table, which is why I was rather surprised when I got a purple out of a tier 5 node with 3 plentiful harvests and no pots. 

I am willing to give it a shot in bloodbath, even though it could take hours of being ganked and killed while I am simply trying to test systems. I sure would like a range of node tiers in a place to test in peace, it's not like this is an actual game yet, maybe a testing resource parcel for our EK's or two. 

Before I do that testing you still should consider that if I understand node tiers correctly, tier 5 is going to be the maximum value of a tier in God's reach. Is it your intent that God's reach only be of white resource value to all players with less than 6 months of dedicated training?  Because that's what it is behaving like now, and all my training, 5 months dedicated to copper, is giving not "shallow" but ZERO sense of progression

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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9 hours ago, thomasblair said:

Feel the love! (Also enjoy the NK farmer comment someone else had in there). I have definitely been immersed in getting the Discipline system finished and into your hands for many weeks, and weekends have been occupied with my extra credit Disciplines of Bard/Troub and associated minors completed (with how these turned out, it was definitely worth the weekend time). There is no doubt more to do on harvesting/crafting system/disciplines, probably in conjunction with the p2 implementation of crafting. As always a tremendous amount of things to juggle, and we will try to get as many passes on every system as possible.

 

The passives to the basic resource type are a good solution to jump starting the economy. Sure we could just boost the basetables, which would wreck the progression curve, which we purposely do try to keep flatter than typical MMORPG exponential curves. However the basic boost passives are on the table for reassignment to specific racial disciplines.

The folks who focus in harvesting will be substantially better with much more crits, crit amounts, less tool decay, open up more advanced types like GD, get unique items from nodes, and be able to clear higher rank nodes better, as well as eventually break the 3/4 plethora barrier (I am still considering if the +1 from Alch and or Group Leader should stack at all with the passive)

 

As for the testing of the pleth 4/5 vs passive, thanks for the experiment bu please try it again on nodes higher than rank 5. The nodes in Bloodbath should mostly be 8+. If you notice the table someone linked above from an older update there is no possible way for the current boost passives to get you to epic/leg qualities. (even more so if the stacking is removed)

Also look at these as one of my experiments for passives to put on the harvesting/racial disciplines.

 

 

You can't ask for numbers and give us no route to numbers sir .... I have attempted to gather on Bloodbath and even off hours but cannot survive long enough to generate 40 nodes harvested for any stats to be worth while. "solo gathering is not the way!"  I understand that screams will come from the combat players when they cannot kill us but if you want players that have sacrificed their combat skills to train down the gathering tree you have to give us somewhere to gather. yes at launch we will face this challenge but at launch we will all be part of guilds that have a reason to be on at the same time to create cover for us .... right now its not worth the loss of tools, loss of mats and frustration to go die on a small map to determine math that could change at any time. 

I believe in your vision but dispute the concept of needing to jump starting the economy by passives, unless those passives are EACH tied to a stone for the players to swap. If I want more speed I need to decide to spend a Discipline stone slot. When I want to change from speed to something else, I loose something to gain something. By tying the non-gatherer passives to Stones we see a creation of a faucet of goods from Runemakers, creation of a sink of resources in the crafting stones, the creation of commerce for the crafters to get the raw materials to craft the stones and creating meaningful and impactful choices to the player. 

Edited by anhrezcf

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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I have to agree with anhrezcf and KrakkenSmacken. Bloodbath lives up to it's name and is a tiny gank box where nothing can really be tested other than one's patience.

 

A testing parcel with actual resources on it would go a long way.

Edited by Ranik

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Some people like the early stages of a MMO video game where scarcity is real and when you have something awesome nobody else has it yet. So jumpstarting the economy for 'fun' takes away from the fun for people who like the early stages/ 

I agree with a lot of what @Gaulwa said. The combat passives should equal 9 months of combat training and not stack with combat training so that we could  jump start the combat as well.

O wait but a higher skill level doesn't make combat more fun. And you're trying to tell me a higher gathering skill makes gathering more fun? No it doesn't I can guarantee skill level does not make gathering more or less fun. Plus the act of gathering should start out fun; it shouldn't be some amount of levels away.

The reason I believe ACE made these passives is so that characters are more homogenized. This is in line with the currently announced patch which unlock races and classes. Both of these changes make the game closer to World of Warcraft and the standard for MMORPGs. With the forgemaster being removed from the game and thus archetypes that are focused on crafting I can see these new passive powers as a move toward crafting intended on being a side activity while the majority of players time is spent on combat related activities.

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17 minutes ago, Holyvigil said:

Some people like the early stages of a MMO video game where scarcity is real and when you have something awesome nobody else has it yet. So jumpstarting the economy for 'fun' takes away from the fun for people who like the early stages/ 

I agree with a lot of what @Gaulwa said. The combat passives should equal 9 months of combat training and not stack with combat training so that we could  jump start the combat as well.

O wait but a higher skill level doesn't make combat more fun. And you're trying to tell me a higher gathering skill makes gathering more fun? No it doesn't I can guarantee skill level does not make gathering more or less fun. Plus the act of gathering should start out fun; it shouldn't be some amount of levels away.

The reason I believe ACE made these passives is so that characters are more homogenized. This is in line with the currently announced patch which unlock races and classes. Both of these changes make the game closer to World of Warcraft and the standard for MMORPGs. With the forgemaster being removed from the game and thus archetypes that are focused on crafting I can see these new passive powers as a move toward crafting intended on being a side activity while the majority of players time is spent on combat related activities.

 

I think they added these to speed things up for Alpha testing. Any more than that is a bit much to say this early.

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