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Anhrez

Harvesting Passives ... Why they hurt gatherers

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Just now, Ranik said:

 

I think they added these to speed things up for Alpha testing. Any more than that is a bit much to say this early.

Your right.

They added them to speed up the crafting system testing, at the expense of testing and refining the early harvesting experience, as few players have the discipline or the desire to ignore the POT buffs and try to imagine themselves playing under the intended restrictions.

 

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Just now, KrakkenSmacken said:

Your right.

They added them to speed up the crafting system testing, at the expense of testing and refining the early harvesting experience, as few players have the discipline or the desire to ignore the POT buffs and try to imagine themselves playing under the intended restrictions.

 

Yeah, currently I can't say we are at a point where they realistically can test the early game experience. We are all stuck in small combat boxes. As is getting ANYTHING harvested is freaking rough with roving gank squads in such a small area. The passives by and large are ok for now and should be worried about more in depth closer to beta. When we have actual worlds to play in.

 

At least that's my opinion on the matter.

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29 minutes ago, Holyvigil said:

Some people like the early stages of a MMO video game where scarcity is real and when you have something awesome nobody else has it yet. So jumpstarting the economy for 'fun' takes away from the fun for people who like the early stages/ 

I agree with a lot of what @Gaulwa said. The combat passives should equal 9 months of combat training and not stack with combat training so that we could  jump start the combat as well.

O wait but a higher skill level doesn't make combat more fun. And you're trying to tell me a higher gathering skill makes gathering more fun? No it doesn't I can guarantee skill level does not make gathering more or less fun. Plus the act of gathering should start out fun; it shouldn't be some amount of levels away.

The reason I believe ACE made these passives is so that characters are more homogenized. This is in line with the currently announced patch which unlock races and classes. Both of these changes make the game closer to World of Warcraft and the standard for MMORPGs. With the forgemaster being removed from the game and thus archetypes that are focused on crafting I can see these new passive powers as a move toward crafting intended on being a side activity while the majority of players time is spent on combat related activities.

We will have that experience in every campaign world startup that restricts gear import significantly.  

To get to the highest echelons players will have to

  1. Harvest based on skill alone.
  2. Craft/Purchase upgraded (white) mining specific gear.
  3. Craft/Purchase upgraded disciplines
  4. Craft/Purchase upgraded vessels.
  5. Harvest improved quality now based on skill and substandard equipment.
  6. Repeat 2-5 with more advanced gear until sufficient levels are reached.
  7. Fully outfit a maxed out dedicated harvester with gear that degrades and can be lost.

No worries about that "early game" experience ever going away.

I mostly agree with the part I bolded in your quote as it relates to the actual mechanics. That said, gathering without skill/gear is like playing a slot that pays out 50%. Gathering with skill/gear is like playing a slot that pays out 110%.

The second is actually more fun and rewarding. 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Also, one can - or SHOULD - safely assume that they got all the data they needed to make sure that early gatherer testing works. Try to remember what the point of these test modules IS. They're making sure everything is working and giving us a playground. This isn't designed to reflect the game at launch, and if they already have all the data they need about how harvesting will work for the first few days or weeks or months, then no amount of redundant data is going to actually speed things up.

For the 4235989854th time, I'm gonna point out the difference between "this change isn't fun for me" and "this change isn't useful" or "this change is bad for the game."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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Just now, goose said:

Also, one can - or SHOULD - safely assume that they got all the data they needed to make sure that early gatherer testing works. Try to remember what the point of these test modules IS. They're making sure everything is working and giving us a playground. This isn't designed to reflect the game at launch, and if they already have all the data they need about how harvesting will work for the first few days or weeks or months, then no amount of redundant data is going to actually speed things up.

For the 4235989854th time, I'm gonna point out the difference between "this change isn't fun for me" and "this change isn't useful" or "this change is bad for the game."

The dropped the harvesting pots on almost day one.  

None of the data they have collected since then reflects how harvesting and material volumes are going to be on launch, or more importantly how NEW players will feel stepping into an established economy, or how advancement will be perceived.

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1 hour ago, canvox said:

I don't understand, I can only find 2 plentiful harvest for each ore in the skill tree... but the passive gives 3?

You get one for all nodes in basics very early,  then the two in each ore line, then one at the end of all Ore, and finally one from leadership.

So the passive basically gives you the same level as 150 days+ of training for free.

The current training gives you crit/beni harvest bonus that you can get along the way.

Problem is, that even fully spec'd out in a line, the training feels like it doesn't do anything significant.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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1 minute ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

You get one for all nodes in basics very early,  then the two in each ore line, then one at the end of all Ore, and finally one from leadership.

So the passive basically gives you the same level as 150 days+ of training for free.

 

But Thomas isn't sure if leadership will stack with the passive, so.... only one of those points is unique to crafters.

Edited by canvox

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3 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

The dropped the harvesting pots on almost day one.  

None of the data they have collected since then reflects how harvesting and material volumes are going to be on launch, or more importantly how NEW players will feel stepping into an established economy, or how advancement will be perceived.

Yes, but OUR testing isn't the ONLY testing. It's possible bordering on extremely likely that the only information they actually NEEDED from us was completely unchanged by how many pips of Plentiful Harvest we had, because the difference between 0 and 5 might be a lot as far as how much it lets us do, but from a programming perspective it's changing one line.

Again, whether it is or isn't fun doesn't mean it is in any significant way useful for the devs.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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Your gaining more than just "plentiful harvest" when you actually do train up to the 3 plentifuls. You keep leaving out the part that even if you had 3 plentifuls, you aren't going to be "revenue positive" when you do engage in mining (or whatever).

It'll cost someone with no training, and these "passive" substitutes way too many minerals creating and recreating the tools to make these passives worthwhile. At best these will be useful for gatherers who want to get a leg up on that training at launch.

Edited by scree

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1 minute ago, scree said:

Your gaining more than just "plentiful harvest" when you actually do train up to the 3 plentifuls. You keep leaving out the part that even if you had 3 plentifuls, you aren't going to be "revenue positive" when you do engage mining (or whatever).

It'll cost someone with no training, and these "passive" substitutes way to many minerals creating and recreating the tools to make these passives worthwhile. At best these will be useful for gatherers who want to get a leg up on that training at launch.

Just curious, how much training and harvesting have you done without pots?  Because my experience in trying without pots is that without the pots buff, 6 months of training results in 2 extra higher quality doobers every 50 or so nodes.

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I think the solution is to make leadership/alchemy have both +plentiful and +skill (mining/quarrying/etc.) options that don't stack, have a gem or something that grants +plentiful, add an additional +plentiful for all node types early in each advanced tree.  Then make leadership/alchemy/gem not stack with the passive.  That gives us the ability to remove the passive a month or two in with some leadership/alchemy/gem investment, node-specific skills always give us a 4th plentiful, and we can scale down that alternative investment as we skill up.

Edited by canvox

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5 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Just curious, how much training and harvesting have you done without pots?  Because my experience in trying without pots is that without the pots buff, 6 months of training results in 2 extra higher quality doobers every 50 or so nodes.

A significant amount, actually, and it's a noticeable difference in how quickly I consume tools versus my alt account with no training. I'm also cognisant of the fact that their remain to be numerous balance passes over gathering tradeskills and that this is not the final iteration of gathering as a whole. 

More importantly, the skill trees aren't final.

So yea, a great deal of understanding goes into these statements when I say simply equipping a passive gathering discipline does not a gatherer make you. But you guys keep beating that war drum when there are better issues to be raising a fuss over.

Edited by scree

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I'm also seeing a lot of numbers here that are all based off of the current skill training times.

Let's remember that the skill training times right now are probably more than double what they will be once skill training is unlocked. Right now, to get all the plentiful harvest pips, you have to FULLY train EVERY skill preceding them, while at live you'll have to PARTLY train ONE of the skills preceding them. This will cut the time it takes to unlock Plentiful Harvest pips by anywhere from 50% to 80%, depending on where the breakpoint is.

And also, if the issue is that skill training doesn't feel as impactful as it should, that seems like a totally separate issue from "harvesting passives are bad for gatherers."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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26 minutes ago, scree said:

A significant amount, actually, and it's a noticeable difference in how quickly I consume tools versus my alt account with no training. I'm also cognisant of the fact that their remain to be numerous balance passes over gathering tradeskills and that this is not the final iteration of gathering as a whole. 

More importantly, the skill trees aren't final.

So yea, a great deal of understanding goes into these statements when I say simply equipping a passive gathering discipline does not a gatherer make you.

Tool consumption to me is almost irrelevant, or rather will be when BP's are a thing and the durability through stages is fixed.  I already don't even care about it. 

Bootstrapping with (Blue parchment - white ore - white ore), happens about 3/20 times. Then follow that up with a second bootstrap of white blank blue rune (again 3/20), means that you will be able to make about 80 or more blue picks from 24 blue logs 260 white logs, and 480 white ore, not including the lesser picks you get along the way. 

On the balance pass, fair enough. Mostly I hope ACE looks at and does not ignore this input when they do those balance passes.  I fully expect it to be fixed, what I don't want is them to wait until after a year of training to realize how borked the early harvesting game is.  If it's not fun at the start, then once the initial players have passed through the process from necessity, and they may not notice that not enough new players are picking it up and eventually run into an attrition problem that is not easy to solve.

Because of all the lag time in training, days to get even the simplest skills, it's not like we can cleanly step through the process as see the incremental impact and do proper testing on how each increment effects 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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15 minutes ago, goose said:

I'm also seeing a lot of numbers here that are all based off of the current skill training times.

Let's remember that the skill training times right now are probably more than double what they will be once skill training is unlocked. Right now, to get all the plentiful harvest pips, you have to FULLY train EVERY skill preceding them, while at live you'll have to PARTLY train ONE of the skills preceding them. This will cut the time it takes to unlock Plentiful Harvest pips by anywhere from 50% to 80%, depending on where the breakpoint is.

And also, if the issue is that skill training doesn't feel as impactful as it should, that seems like a totally separate issue from "harvesting passives are bad for gatherers."

Which goes to my suggestion.

Split the 5 pips and table into 25, with each 20% blue shard representing a pip, and make the passive stack so it does not eclipse training. It's much easier to balance increments when you have 5X the possible options. I think all "Must train to 100%" items should be re-thought and broken into smaller pieces.

It is not a separate issue, because the two are definitely related.  Harvesting passives exasperates the feeling that training has less impact. I have copper trained enough after 150 days that I don't need the passive for it, but you can get to almost the exact same level of productivity as I have, simply by selecting the passive.

If you solve the training impact issue in the context of that, you solve the new problem that passives have created.

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1 minute ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Tool consumption to me is almost irrelevant, or rather will be when BP's are a thing and the durability through stages is fixed.  I already don't even care about it. 

Bootstrapping with (Blue parchment - white ore - white ore), happens about 3/20 times. Then follow that up with a second bootstrap of white blank blue ruin (again 3/20), means that you will be able to make about 80 or more blue picks from 24 blue logs 260 white logs, and 480 white ore, not including the lesser picks you get along the way. 

On the balance pass, fair enough. Mostly I hope ACE looks at and does not ignore this input when they do those balance passes.  I fully expect it to be fixed, what I don't want is them to wait until after a year of training to realize how borked the early harvesting game is.  If it's not fun at the start, then once the initial players have passed through the process from necessity, and they may not notice that not enough new players are picking it up and eventually run into an attrition problem that is not easy to solve.

Because of all the lag time in training, days to get even the simplest skills, it's not like we can cleanly step through the process as see the incremental impact and do proper testing on how each increment effects 

See, now this is something I can work with. xD

It may be irrelevant to you, and it's certainly unimportant in both current and previous testing iterations, but as far as the vision Blair has described previously, tool consumption will be a big deal, especially in fall and winter when resources become scarce and efficient use of what you stockpiled in spring and summer begins to matter more than how effectively you can collect new resources. So as far as the overall impact on the game, tool consumption SHOULD matter. Bootstrapping becomes less a thing that invalidates this as a necessary way to get an edge late in long campaigns.

As for the balance passes and hope that ACE takes some time to address these fully, I'm pretty sure we all share the same hopes there. But right now, the focus isn't on "is it fun for the first 6 months," it's "when we turn this on, does it work." They can't test every facet of these systems at once, and right now the priority is on getting them online. For the sake of perspective, also try to remember that the test modules we're playing on are equally a backer reward for us as an actual test module - just because a system is online in the test module doesn't mean that improving or fixing it is a priority for the dev team right now. As Blair said earlier, right now they're working on disciplines, both developing and implementing them, and they're planning another crafting pass later.

Once all the systems are finished and online, we'll move into alpha, and that will be the first time we'll ever have had a chance to see what it feels like to start a new character, because previously we were able to train skills that wouldn't have been trainable at all yet. I had to spend a month working through Combat Basics to unlock access to some skills I had already finished training in Combat Principles because of changes they hadn't implemented when the skill training first went up.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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Just now, KrakkenSmacken said:

Which goes to my suggestion.

Split the 5 pips and table into 25, with each 20% blue shard representing a pip, and make the passive stack so it does not eclipse training. It's much easier to balance increments when you have 5X the possible options. I think all "Must train to 100%" items should be re-thought and broken into smaller pieces.

It is not a separate issue, because the two are definitely related.  Harvesting passives exasperates the feeling that training has less impact. I have copper trained enough after 150 days that I don't need the passive for it, but you can get to almost the exact same level of productivity as I have, simply by selecting the passive.

If you solve the training impact issue in the context of that, you solve the new problem that passives have created.

It's also possible that you're entirely correct here - as a primary explorer, I have no interest in harvesting or crafting, and maybe I'm just less off-put by progress or lack thereof in those two because NONE of the things I care about are online yet. But I still think you're putting too much of the impetus to test numbers on us, when the dev team has much easier access to the knobs that this sort of testing references and the actual numbers that turning those knobs impacts.

They could easily test how well that stuff is *working* in an hour or two on the dev servers, and once it's where they want it they can just turn those knobs on the public servers and ask us to report how it feels. The fact that that isn't what they are focused on right now seems more important to keep in mind than how it feels right now.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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Jumpstarting something means that something is broken/not working correctly. 

Why not fix it? Rather than band-aid it. 

Also the passive gives the skill training equivalent for all 5 advanced nodes at a time. Regular training does not. And it also gives no bonus to the slag/cobbles/knots of the world. And you are more than likely going to need a race specific body to access the passives thus limiting class as well. Or discs. 

Passives for gathering is yet another band-aid potion equivalent fix to a poorly made socksty system. 10 Minute Potions for testing was a poorly made socksty fix. Nerfed potions made it poorly made sockstier. 12 minute Nerfed potions is petty and poorly made socksty at the same time.

Does it work. Yes. That does not make it elegant or fun. Blair comments that there is a trade off, or an opportunity cost for gathering. I ran out of opportunities a while back.

First cost. Training Exploration rather than combat/crafting. 

Second.    Making gathering gear with zero combat stats that does so damn little. 

Third         Pick consumption. Each hit takes a durability. Why is that not applied to weapons/armor? (Because it would not be fun)

Forth        Skills discs and passives: Need a passive so I don't suck at mining. Check Need a passive so I don't zoom in while Mining.                  Check Okay 1 passive left. Soon to be applied with discs as well. So I can slot almost away all combat ability to do what I                    chose to do, maybe the gathering discs will make me replace all the base classes abilities with 1-6 different 10                                    second buffs that I can use to make me better at gathering all while not being able to hit them due to holding F to Gather!

 

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1 minute ago, goose said:

See, now this is something I can work with. xD

It may be irrelevant to you, and it's certainly unimportant in both current and previous testing iterations, but as far as the vision Blair has described previously, tool consumption will be a big deal, especially in fall and winter when resources become scarce and efficient use of what you stockpiled in spring and summer begins to matter more than how effectively you can collect new resources. So as far as the overall impact on the game, tool consumption SHOULD matter. Bootstrapping becomes less a thing that invalidates this as a necessary way to get an edge late in long campaigns.

As for the balance passes and hope that ACE takes some time to address these fully, I'm pretty sure we all share the same hopes there. But right now, the focus isn't on "is it fun for the first 6 months," it's "when we turn this on, does it work." They can't test every facet of these systems at once, and right now the priority is on getting them online. For the sake of perspective, also try to remember that the test modules we're playing on are equally a backer reward for us as an actual test module - just because a system is online in the test module doesn't mean that improving or fixing it is a priority for the dev team right now. As Blair said earlier, right now they're working on disciplines, both developing and implementing them, and they're planning another crafting pass later.

Once all the systems are finished and online, we'll move into alpha, and that will be the first time we'll ever have had a chance to see what it feels like to start a new character, because previously we were able to train skills that wouldn't have been trainable at all yet. I had to spend a month working through Combat Basics to unlock access to some skills I had already finished training in Combat Principles because of changes they hadn't implemented when the skill training first went up.

 

2 minutes ago, goose said:

It's also possible that you're entirely correct here - as a primary explorer, I have no interest in harvesting or crafting, and maybe I'm just less off-put by progress or lack thereof in those two because NONE of the things I care about are online yet. But I still think you're putting too much of the impetus to test numbers on us, when the dev team has much easier access to the knobs that this sort of testing references and the actual numbers that turning those knobs impacts.

They could easily test how well that stuff is *working* in an hour or two on the dev servers, and once it's where they want it they can just turn those knobs on the public servers and ask us to report how it feels. The fact that that isn't what they are focused on right now seems more important to keep in mind than how it feels right now.

Did you happen to catch the answer to my question about what "season" we are in resource wise.

"The resource nodes, the stone and the ore doesn't change".

Since the bulk of a runes cost is ore, and the wood bootstrap numbers are 5/1 I don't see the seasons affecting things that much.

If you watch the entire video, you should be aware that they are just about to do a skill pass with the 1-5 change, so NOW is exactly the right time to point out concerns with the training progress system and how it feels. I am pretty sure/hope once they are done we will get a skill reset to go along with it, so we can really test out the new numbers. 

Since you don't do these things, have little experience with the problem, and really don't care to do it in the future, I don't understand your goal in jumping into this thread to be honest. 

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