Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Anhrez

Harvesting Passives ... Why they hurt gatherers

Recommended Posts

18 minutes ago, scree said:

Good, I know who to hunt.

Erm, you are totally wrong here. Let me paint this out in a verbal word picture for you.

Player A - No Training, No Passives: Mines 200 Ore, using 10 picks.

Player B - No Training, Passives: Mines 200 Ore, uses 5 picks.

Just for argument's sake, if picks cost 10 ore (it can be any number, the point is the same). Who harvested a larger volume of materials? You are wrong about efficiency not leading to more resources generated. Not sure how I can lay out this math any simpler for you.

Volume needs to be reserved for gatherers. It should be the benefit of extensive training, not efficiency like it is now. Tools have a cost, and organizations would heed well managing this just like any other resources they keep in their banks.

edit: I wanted to address your point that right now with zero training you get zero resources. That's clearly false. A poor premise to operate from. I can disprove this is 30 seconds on youtube if you'd really insist on persisting with that nonsense.

Fine disprove it. Show me you harvesting anything that isn't knot/cobble/slag, with no special gear (white or less picks being used), no pots, no training, and no passives loaded.  Keep at it till you get that 200 and count your picks and number of nodes you had to knock over to get them.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just wondering once I've done this, what nonsensical scapeout you'll blame my success on. I mine 200 non-slag ore, and you'll admit your wrong? Really? I mean, you've read some of the theorycrafting I've done on the subject of gathering right? You realize me and Anhrez probably mined 100x that to get some of our numbers right? (without training on one of my alts too!)

Gotta be a catch here. I'm waiting for the caveat to drop.

Keep in mind, what I'm proving here is that without training it's totally possible to get to 200 net positive ore without equipping the passive.

Edited by scree

Obsidian-ForumSignature.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, scree said:

I'm just wondering once I've done this, what nonsensical scapeout you blame my success on. I mine 200 non-slag ore, and you'll admit your wrong? Really? I mean, you've read some of the theorycrafting I've done on the subject of gathering right? You realize me and Anhrez probably mined 100x that to get some of our numbers right? (without training on one of my alts too!)

Gotta be a catch here. I'm waiting for the caveat to drop.

Well then tone down the test and take less time.  Use one pick on each model, and see the results.

I would do it myself, but I have skills trained that give me at least one plentiful harvest on everything, so I can't try zero skill myself.

The real metric isn't pic's/resources gathered, the real metric is NET resources/time.

If the numbers are within 50% of volume per node between passive disc no training, and no passive disk no training, I'll admit I am wrong. 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
Clarity

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Uhh look at the trees. Do you know when you surpass the passive? When you train the last skill in the tree. The very last skill. That once you complete it means you now have better than the Plentiful Harvest that slotting the passive gave you. 

Talk about wrecking the custard curve. The last custard skill. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also Go through the whole tree. How much crit chance do you add up? How about crit amount? How much adds up? Or a really good one. How much of a chance is there to trigger the Beneficial Harvest proc that is so goddamn important. (Hint it buffs stamina, run speed, and crit amount and chance) My admittedly bad math skills tell me if I trained everything I have a 0.20% chance to proc. So does that mean 1 in 800 nodes destroyed I get the proc? And how much per node do we get a proc on these awesome skills I have been training in. 

This is the second pass. Hell might be the third. A shallow power curve my ass. The base is unfun. But getting murdered and your crap taken is going to make it more fun?

Check your poorly made socks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, srathor said:

Also Go through the whole tree. How much crit chance do you add up? How about crit amount? How much adds up? Or a really good one. How much of a chance is there to trigger the Beneficial Harvest proc that is so goddamn important. (Hint it buffs stamina, run speed, and crit amount and chance) My admittedly bad math skills tell me if I trained everything I have a 0.20% chance to proc. So does that mean 1 in 800 nodes destroyed I get the proc? And how much per node do we get a proc on these awesome skills I have been training in. 

This is the second pass. Hell might be the third. A shallow power curve my ass. The base is unfun. But getting murdered and your crap taken is going to make it more fun?

Check your poorly made socks.

Somebody slipped a zero somewhere when they set those numbers. When I have the pots running, that Beneficial Harvest procs almost every time.  In my opinion, it's one skill that should get to 100% by the time training is finished. It's a limited time buff, never applies to the first node in a set, and really makes a difference in productivity.

I understand shallow curve for combat, but harvesting, come on that's just daft.  If it's that shallow, and equipment eclipses it completely, may as well not even have the passive training for it at all.

I'm seriously re-thinking my mains profession.  Could be that combat isn't as much of bait as I thought it was, since I still refuse to dedicate to crafting of any type with combine failures.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, scree said:

I'm just wondering once I've done this, what nonsensical scapeout you'll blame my success on. I mine 200 non-slag ore, and you'll admit your wrong? Really? I mean, you've read some of the theorycrafting I've done on the subject of gathering right? You realize me and Anhrez probably mined 100x that to get some of our numbers right? (without training on one of my alts too!)

Gotta be a catch here. I'm waiting for the caveat to drop.

Keep in mind, what I'm proving here is that without training it's totally possible to get to 200 net positive ore without equipping the passive.

 

6 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Well then tone down the test and take less time.  Use one pick on each model, and see the results.

I would do it myself, but I have skills trained that give me at least one plentiful harvest on everything, so I can't try zero skill myself.

The real metric isn't pic's/resources gathered, the real metric is NET resources/time.

If the numbers are within 50% of volume per node between passive disc no training, and no passive disk no training, I'll admit I am wrong. 

So with tonight's snap test I decided to give it a shot myself, even though I have many ore skills already trained, I can show some of the differences.

I used basic tools, with no mining bonus, and did not bother to worry about the decay rates, my training has me able to clear the 5 nodes around a mother load pretty easy with one pick.

I also have a single plentiful harvest for all ores, so this is not untrained, but if I am right I could get it from the "Plentiful Resources Ore: Slag" in exploration basics after 9 days, so it's not hard to get into that one.

I did 5 tier 5 nodes of silver in each experiment, one with the passive and one without.

The results were

rjvVd7H.jpg

So 1/3rd of the material, AND way lower quality, even with a pile of other ore training finished. 

I may not be absolute zero, but it certainly is practically zero, and even more certainly a total waste of time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

 

So with tonight's snap test I decided to give it a shot myself, even though I have many ore skills already trained, I can show some of the differences.

I used basic tools, with no mining bonus, and did not bother to worry about the decay rates, my training has me able to clear the 5 nodes around a mother load pretty easy with one pick.

I also have a single plentiful harvest for all ores, so this is not untrained, but if I am right I could get it from the "Plentiful Resources Ore: Slag" in exploration basics after 9 days, so it's not hard to get into that one.

I did 5 tier 5 nodes of silver in each experiment, one with the passive and one without.

The results were

rjvVd7H.jpg

So 1/3rd of the material, AND way lower quality, even with a pile of other ore training finished. 

I may not be absolute zero, but it certainly is practically zero, and even more certainly a total waste of time.

OMG, the passives are potentially sooooo much worse than I thought right now that I can't even....

I just made and used the new "Normal" plentiful harvest mining pot,  the one that costs real (not cobble/knot/slag) but not quality materials and quite a few (18 total) to make.  

It gave me +1 Plentiful harvest for 30 minutes, that stacked with the passive. So with the passive and the pot, I was able hit 4 plentiful harvest on all minerals, not just the one (copper) I had trained in. This means anyone with even the most basic alchemy can probably hit 4 without training, the majority of the capstone pinnacle skill it takes over a year of training to get to , "Ore Harvesting Familiarity Mastery".  

Unless they gate the recipe behind a boat load of hours of training, or put it in the harvesting skill tree itself this "playable placeholder" is so broken currently it's not even funny.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But the curve is protected. Thank god!

And the opportunity cost of slotting the passive greatly outweighs the opportunity cost of learning gathering for a year plus easily.  I mean there might be a cooldown sometime in the future. Gods! A Cooldown.

What would those combat players do not having to train for a year. A cooldown!

Gathering needs to be looked at with a fresh eye, because Blair is just going to gloss over it. As he has done for the last 4 months I have been bitching about the custard potions.

Oh and @KrakkenSmakken everyone with no training always has at least one Plentiful Harvest pip. 

Edited by srathor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, srathor said:

But the curve is protected. Thank god!

And the opportunity cost of slotting the passive greatly outweighs the opportunity cost of learning gathering for a year plus easily.  I mean there might be a cooldown sometime in the future. Gods! A Cooldown.

What would those combat players do not having to train for a year. A cooldown!

Gathering needs to be looked at with a fresh eye, because Blair is just going to gloss over it. As he has done for the last 4 months I have been bitching about the custard potions.

Oh and @KrakkenSmakken everyone with no training always has at least one Plentiful Harvest pip. 

Thanks, I did not know that.  So my test was based on base + some ancillary training.

Looks like zero training no passives, no pots, is locked to 1/3 the production of clear materials for the most part.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was going to go back and do some more testing when I came to the conclusion that I just don't care to waste my time anymore.
A few others I play with are expressing similar feelings as well. There are many things I like, there are a few things I dislike, and there are some things I flat out hate. Like any game I have played over my life, take the good with the bad, play until I figure it out or don't care to try anymore then look for something else to do. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just want to chime in that as someone who was a KS backer and has followed this game closely for two years now, I'm exiting. My intention was always to be a gathering main. Crafting doesn't interest me, and neither does combat. I make things for a living and I'll always find better combat outside of MMOs than in them. Gathering in MMOs is why I play them, and clearly it is either not something that's been deeply considered or, and I find this much more likely, it's not valued by design leads of the team. I say this having been an alpha and a friends and family tester for nearly a dozen games across genres, and as someone who works in the industry. This is bad. I hope people who find the game enjoyable continue to do so, that they continue to support ACE financially and otherwise, and that Crowfall has a long life. But I'm out.

 

EDIT: I have a year of VIP to flip. If anyone still finds VIP worthwhile and wants more, message me.

Edited by IHeartFargo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, IHeartFargo said:

Just want to chime in that as someone who was a KS backer and has followed this game closely for two years now, I'm exiting. My intention was always to be a gathering main. Crafting doesn't interest me, and neither does combat. I make things for a living and I'll always find better combat outside of MMOs than in them. Gathering in MMOs is why I play them, and clearly it is either not something that's been deeply considered or, and I find this much more likely, it's not valued by design leads of the team. I say this having been an alpha and a friends and family tester for nearly a dozen games across genres, and as someone who works in the industry. This is bad. I hope people who find the game enjoyable continue to do so, that they continue to support ACE financially and otherwise, and that Crowfall has a long life. But I'm out.

 

EDIT: I have a year of VIP to flip. If anyone still finds VIP worthwhile and wants more, message me.

We all will keep stating our case for a vision where Gathering is useful to the game, relevant to the Campaign and fun in some sort for the player. Sorry to see you stepping back but we will spam you anyway as we see any changes in hopes that you will think about circling back


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a bit premature to project how gathering will be when the game actually launches, but if a person really is having an unpleasant time in the current tests they should take a break. 

You are seeing early iterations of all of the core systems, these will be revised many times over, the same happened with combat.  It's easy to get caught up in the moment and say ACE doesn't care about certain players when you are experiencing frustration in the test, but try to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.  Just because ACE doesn't address a concern that is important to you immediately does not mean they will not eventually.  They have to make a game, and if you are the type of person that may be quick to judge, then at least wait to try the game out until it is closer to completion.  Right now it is just a very basic shell of what it will be.

That being said, crowfall will not be for everyone, people come and go as they realize the game doesn't fit what they wanted, all we can hope is that everyone is able to find a game they find fun somewhere out there. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

OMG, the passives are potentially sooooo much worse than I thought right now that I can't even....

I just made and used the new "Normal" plentiful harvest mining pot,  the one that costs real (not cobble/knot/slag) but not quality materials and quite a few (18 total) to make.  

It gave me +1 Plentiful harvest for 30 minutes, that stacked with the passive. So with the passive and the pot, I was able hit 4 plentiful harvest on all minerals, not just the one (copper) I had trained in. This means anyone with even the most basic alchemy can probably hit 4 without training, the majority of the capstone pinnacle skill it takes over a year of training to get to , "Ore Harvesting Familiarity Mastery".  

Unless they gate the recipe behind a boat load of hours of training, or put it in the harvesting skill tree itself this "playable placeholder" is so broken currently it's not even funny.

 

 

There's an easy fix for that, merely shifting around how the potion and passive interact.  If the potion applies first before the passive, the passive will only get a player to a max of 3 plentiful harvest (as written in its description).  E.g. If I have 2 plentiful harvest, take the potion, and equip the passive, I should still cap at 3 plentiful harvest because it checks the passive against the 3 total plentiful harvest I have from my skills and potions.  This kind of interaction leaves the potion useful without utterly destroying the harvesting curve.

It's probable, in my opinion, that the present interaction between the potion and passive is unintentional.  You may wish to report what you found about the potion and passive as a potential bug.  If it isn't a bug, it's quite worrying, I agree.

Even if functioning as intended, the cost to make the potion might make it uncommon later down the line.

11 hours ago, anhrezcf said:

We all will keep stating our case for a vision where Gathering is useful to the game, relevant to the Campaign and fun in some sort for the player. Sorry to see you stepping back but we will spam you anyway as we see any changes in hopes that you will think about circling back

I echo anhrezcf's statement and note that the passives we are currently discussing and seeking improvement around replaced the potion system which had similar (if not identical) effects but was more annoying forcing us to craft potions every 10 and then every 12 minutes.  Overall, I'd say passives are an improvement over the potion system, just not far enough of an improvement.  As Vikingnail suggests, there will be more iterations that follow and the hope is with testing and prompting, the harvesting system will move toward something that feels fun and rewarding for player's focusing on harvesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Ivellian said:

There's an easy fix for that, merely shifting around how the potion and passive interact.  If the potion applies first before the passive, the passive will only get a player to a max of 3 plentiful harvest (as written in its description).  E.g. If I have 2 plentiful harvest, take the potion, and equip the passive, I should still cap at 3 plentiful harvest because it checks the passive against the 3 total plentiful harvest I have from my skills and potions.  This kind of interaction leaves the potion useful without utterly destroying the harvesting curve.

It's probable, in my opinion, that the present interaction between the potion and passive is unintentional.  You may wish to report what you found about the potion and passive as a potential bug.  If it isn't a bug, it's quite worrying, I agree.

Even if functioning as intended, the cost to make the potion might make it uncommon later down the line.

I echo anhrezcf's statement and note that the passives we are currently discussing and seeking improvement around replaced the potion system which had similar (if not identical) effects but was more annoying forcing us to craft potions every 10 and then every 12 minutes.  Overall, I'd say passives are an improvement over the potion system, just not far enough of an improvement.  As Vikingnail suggests, there will be more iterations that follow and the hope is with testing and prompting, the harvesting system will move toward something that feels fun and rewarding for player's focusing on harvesting.

You could be right, and I hope you are.

I am not going to bug it until I have see the skill re-vamp completed.  There are so many things up in the air regarding skills and specifics that I am sure are due to change or get caught on the re-pass, that I honestly hope stacking stops even being an issue, and they break up all the "Must be 100% complete to gain anything" skills into 5 parts to match the new crow/shard cups under each skill.

With 25 different tiers of plentiful harvest, they could design the passives around the idea of stacking, without overcharging the skills as they are now.  If passive + pot stacked up to 10/25, with skill then stacking on that, it would be much better than 4/5 with skills contributing effectively nothing for over a year.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/31/2017 at 0:06 AM, thomasblair said:

Feel the love! (Also enjoy the NK farmer comment someone else had in there). I have definitely been immersed in getting the Discipline system finished and into your hands for many weeks, and weekends have been occupied with my extra credit Disciplines of Bard/Troub and associated minors completed (with how these turned out, it was definitely worth the weekend time). There is no doubt more to do on harvesting/crafting system/disciplines, probably in conjunction with the p2 implementation of crafting. As always a tremendous amount of things to juggle, and we will try to get as many passes on every system as possible.

 

The passives to the basic resource type are a good solution to jump starting the economy. Sure we could just boost the basetables, which would wreck the progression curve, which we purposely do try to keep flatter than typical MMORPG exponential curves. However the basic boost passives are on the table for reassignment to specific racial disciplines.

The folks who focus in harvesting will be substantially better with much more crits, crit amounts, less tool decay, open up more advanced types like GD, get unique items from nodes, and be able to clear higher rank nodes better, as well as eventually break the 3/4 plethora barrier (I am still considering if the +1 from Alch and or Group Leader should stack at all with the passive)

As for the testing of the pleth 4/5 vs passive, thanks for the experiment bu please try it again on nodes higher than rank 5. The nodes in Bloodbath should mostly be 8+. If you notice the table someone linked above from an older update there is no possible way for the current boost passives to get you to epic/leg qualities. (even more so if the stacking is removed)

Also look at these as one of my experiments for passives to put on the harvesting/racial disciplines.

 

 

Ok, I managed to sneak into bloodbath in the wee hours of the morning and do some testing largely unmolested. and the results only convinced me of my position further.

Here are my skills right now, I added a bit to copper since the last post.

qIuaBq3.jpg

 

I found Tier 9 nodes and did the following.

HC1szqe.jpg

  • The first column was iron without passives or pots, which I have only a single plentiful harvest on.
  • The second was copper, again without passives or pots, but my 160+ days of training into copper now make the passive redundant anyway. 
  • The third was four nodes with passives and all pots, which also pushed me to plentiful 4. The results are bunched together because I was trying to stack the beneficial bonus. Stamina and pick quality meant I had to prep the nodes before triggering the final hit and two prepped nodes vanished before I could finish them. 
Quote
  1. The folks who focus in harvesting will be substantially better with much more crits, crit amounts, less tool decay, ...
  2. which would wreck the progression curve, which we purposely do try to keep flatter than typical MMORPG exponential curves.

 

 

As you can see, without training or passives, even a tier 9 node gets you practically nothing, with 6 months of dedicated training in the specific ore type and all pre-requisites, you can ONLY consistently get 5 white 1 green material from nearly the best node quality possible. This result is almost identical to my tier 5 node test.

Adding in the buff pots, the results were obviously much better. I did not manage to trigger a crit, so ironically my results on tier 5 nodes is better than tier 9.

@thomasblairHere is the thing, your first quote above is inaccurate.  Focusing on harvesting for six months has provided no substantial gains besides tool decay rates, which are obvious and substantial. For the rest of the items, your goal has not been achieved. I can get the same results, on lower tier nodes, without any training, simply by using the new passive and harvesting pots available to any player at the start of the game.

In short, if after 6 months of dedicated copper training, my results are comparable to untrained with easily accessible buffs, the progression curve does not work and the assumptions used to design it should be re-evaluated.

I can understand the need for a shallow combat curve, but if your goal in harvesting is still based on the idea that you don't even want untrained players to burn through nodes (video with Raph), doesn't a shallow curve mean that even with training there is less reason to spend time on harvesting?

Also, it's doesn't really need to become exponential, just raise the endpoints across the board. It could be as simple as buffing the critical chance training values. 

The reason you keep getting complaints and questions about harvesting, is that the time spent harvesting just doesn't feel rewarding enough for the investment players have to put into it., both in active game time, and training opportunity costs. Making it more challenging to get resources home etc, is not going to fix the reward part of that equation.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice job testing. But you can also just add up the numbers in the nodes. 0.20% chance to trigger the beneficial harvest buff. All of the nodes boosting said buff do not matter if it never goes off. 1 in 800 ore node destructions is not a viable buff I would say. 

Add up the critical chance I am seeing 10% added crit chance for each of the advanced ores. Until the very last node which does give another 10% chance. 

100% copper training is a whopping 10% chance to crit. Wowsers. Blow the custard doors off. Yes there is added stuff. Bag slots, dust acquirement, extra white doobers, extra power for a proc that never flipping goes off, extra duration for a proc that never goes off.

KS It is going to be weeks before I get enough to test it. In the first node of the specialist tree is the one that lets the beneficial harvest buff triggering give you the actual effects. With no pots can you see how often the beneficial harvest buff goes off? And make note of what the chance is for it to go off on your stats page??

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, srathor said:

Nice job testing. But you can also just add up the numbers in the nodes. 0.20% chance to trigger the beneficial harvest buff. All of the nodes boosting said buff do not matter if it never goes off. 1 in 800 ore node destructions is not a viable buff I would say. 

Add up the critical chance I am seeing 10% added crit chance for each of the advanced ores. Until the very last node which does give another 10% chance. 

100% copper training is a whopping 10% chance to crit. Wowsers. Blow the custard doors off. Yes there is added stuff. Bag slots, dust acquirement, extra white doobers, extra power for a proc that never flipping goes off, extra duration for a proc that never goes off.

KS It is going to be weeks before I get enough to test it. In the first node of the specialist tree is the one that lets the beneficial harvest buff triggering give you the actual effects. With no pots can you see how often the beneficial harvest buff goes off? And make note of what the chance is for it to go off on your stats page??

 

In my testing with my current stats, beneficial harvest buff proc's about 1/23.  I suspect it's probably 1/20 and 1/23 is simply RNG related. I think the tool tip math is off, but then again I could have gotten lucky, or only really noticed when it went off and counted wrong.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh KrakkenSmacken if you want to fix your copper mining with no pots to get more good greens and blues get all crit chance gear and pray for beneficial harvest procs. and with all of that gear at amazing amazings you still won't get close to what potions buffs are giving you.

The tree needs a major major overhaul. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...