Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...

Harvesting Passives ... Why they hurt gatherers


Recommended Posts

Just for the record, I want to say that @KrakkenSmacken has successfully explained to me how the gatherer passives are bad - for everybody, not just the dedicated gatherers - through his continued explanations of how they impact play when compared to skill training. I also finally see why this is bad for gatherers in particular, since it lets anyone gain the most significant benefits of the skill training without actually doing any of the skill training.

Since I spent an awful lot of time in here trying to get the words "it isn't that I think you're wrong, it's that I don't understand why you think you're right" across, I figured I would chime back in to say "I got it. Thanks for clearing it up."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 488
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

"10 people on a node" I'm going to play the "that's dumb" card on that statement. (just like a soccer ref, and the card is yellow) I mean seriously; between player collision, the size of the nodes,

I try to respond only to dev posts, but this one needs a rebuttal, and you're normally fairly bright. This isn't a slap in the face to gatherers.  It's a means to make the first year of the game

Are these going to be in game? if not then please ignore the following rant, but from what I read above it seems like they are in ... and if do its a gut-punch to one general tab option. So I spe

@anhrezcfwrote an article that proposed a fix that seemed like a good solution to me. Dunno if it's elsewhere in the forum, but I'll post my take on it here.

Add in prospecting (or an equivalent skill for non-miners). If we keep everything else the way it is right now, but add in a gatherer-only skill that is required to harvest nodes ranked between 2 and 10, unlocked through skill training, then a lot of problems are solved instantly. Giving everyone access to Plentiful Harvest pips will no longer matter as much, because untrained gatherers won't be able to harvest *anything* from tier 2+ nodes without a gatherer in their party. Additionally, the minor benefits that gatherers gain from their skill training will no longer be the only difference between them and some sword-toting schlub - they will be truly ancillary benefits. This will cement gatherers as *essential* in a way that they just aren't at present.

Now granted, this does nothing to resolve the lack of socialization potential in the "Hold F to harvest" model or the drawbacks of reduced peripheral vision + dizzy down, but it does fix three major issues: it makes the gatherer skill trees rewarding, it makes gatherers necessary as a profession, and it reinforces the benefits of gathering with a party. The last of these might help mitigate the forced antisocial nature of the playstyle and somewhat mitigate the risk of dizzy downs, but I still think those need another pass.

This seems on the surface like an idea that only requires more code instead of rewriting existing code, but I reluctantly recognize that this still might not be possible with the current harvesting architecture - I don't speak Unity, so this is beyond my ken. However, it's clear that harvesting needs a major kick in the ass, and this seems like such a simple and effective solution that I'm surprised I never saw it proposed before today. As such, if people like the idea or some iteration of it, I hope we can get some input on its viability down the road.

Edit: also, this opens up the possibility for disciplines that let you harvest from up to, say, tier 6 nodes - depending on the rune quality - without the requisite skill training. As long as the material requirements and skill gating are timed correctly, this will allow people who haven't specialized exclusively in gathering to access higher-end materials without the requisite skill training, albeit at a measurable cost, while still ensuring that the best raw materials require a master gatherer's physical presence to harvest efficiently.

For example, if orange quality materials can be harvested by a low chance from tier 6 or higher nodes, and an orange quality discipline rune allows an untrained character to harvest from tier 6 nodes, then someone who is heavily invested in combat can harvest their own top-tier materials, but it will cost them several times over. One: they need the initial investment in the discipline runes. Two: they don't have the ancillary skills a trained harvester has, resulting in them getting a reduced yield while burning through more tools. Three: the highest nodes that they can access are the nodes with the lowest probability of a return on investment.

Of course, the exact numbers are pure speculation on my part, and it will probably take a few passes to nail down, but..come on. Tell me that doesn't sound better than what we have right now.

And of course, if this is already the plan, some developer input would go a long way here. Also, if someone has proposed this previously, WHY IS THAT THREAD NOT BLOWING UP? O.O

Edited by goose

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, goose said:

Just for the record, I want to say that @KrakkenSmacken has successfully explained to me how the gatherer passives are bad - for everybody, not just the dedicated gatherers - through his continued explanations of how they impact play when compared to skill training. I also finally see why this is bad for gatherers in particular, since it lets anyone gain the most significant benefits of the skill training without actually doing any of the skill training.

Since I spent an awful lot of time in here trying to get the words "it isn't that I think you're wrong, it's that I don't understand why you think you're right" across, I figured I would chime back in to say "I got it. Thanks for clearing it up."

Drat, that's not what I was trying to explain as the problem.

Gathering passives are a brilliant model for doing what they are supposed to, and I wholeheartedly endorse the concept as a way to give new players a chance to see what harvesting is supposed to be like. In fact, I even like the resultant numbers for the passive with a plentiful harvest pot. 

No, the REAL problem is the extremely low volumes of materials provided for by training. There is no way I can see with these levels that a harvester can reasonably supply the needs of more than himself in a realistic time frame.  Let me show you mathematically what I mean.

The assumption is, that each player will be expected to trade for the materials they need, with those that can produce.  I will put a 1-1 ratio for materials in construction, and break down what an item costs in real game time are assuming this ratio. I will also assume that all resource node type produce basically the same volume of materials at the same training level.

To outfit a single templar, with advanced weapon and armor that has no sheets rings, or other optional materials the the costs are. 

Sword   78
Boots   45
Chest   75
Gloves   45
Helmet   45
     
Total   288

Now let's assume that a single harvester is part of a group of 5 and they all need gear as well. I think 5 is actually being very conservative, I suspect with the level of interdependence required, the number is going to be more like 10/1 than 5/1, but let's just run 5 because that's the current group size.

So now our total required resources are not 288 but 1440.

izuxdke.jpg

Base numbers and result series of 7 consecutive ore node farms without pots, but passive on. This was probably an ideal situation, almost 30 minutes of uninterrupted mining, with node farms close enough that the only down time was jogging node to node.

  • Average time per node, 36 seconds.
  • Average yield per node 5.36
  • Seconds per unit 6.7
  • Total Yield 193

The fastest time to harvest enough material to equip a single character with the simplest of advanced gear with zero problems and zero crafting failures, 32 minutes.

So half an hour per character MINIMUM. Now pile on non productive time I didn't count here, like gathering picks, negotiating material exchange, organizing a group, finding a set of nodes close enough together, fighting over said nodes, pack animals, hauling product back periodically, etc.

Minimum requirement for 5 players to team up and harvest, two and a half hours.  No combat, no mistakes, no crafting failures, and nothing really interesting going on. If my suspicion is correct, and a single harvester will be providing for more than 5 players, then that number goes up 30 minutes per.

The numbers are fine for a solo player getting enough for their own gear, but the numbers are terrible for a harvester trying to support and provide for players other than himself.

So either every player is expected to contribute 30+ minutes of harvesting per equipment set loss, or harvesters are.

If the former, what is the point of having dedicated harvesters, if the latter, the current numbers are going to make it an onerous burden on the average player.

And that does not even begin to address the fact that after 160 days of training, in half an hour I got enough better than white ore for a crafter to attempt a single bar bootstrap to green.

So much for crafters having anything interesting to work with.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
Change of numbers to match test, and massive text trim. See goose quote for original.
Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Drat, that's not what I was trying to explain as the problem.

Gathering passives are a brilliant model for doing what they are supposed to, and I wholeheartedly endorse the concept as a way to give new players a chance to see what harvesting is supposed to be like. In fact, I even like the resultant numbers for the passive with a plentiful harvest pot. 

No, the REAL problem is the extremely low volumes of materials provided for by training. There is no way I can see with these levels that a harvester can reasonably supply the needs of more than himself in a realistic time frame.  Let me show you mathematically what I mean.

The assumption is, that each player will be expected to trade for the materials they need, with those that can produce.  I will put a 1-1 ratio for materials in construction, and break down what an item costs in real game time are assuming this ratio. I will also assume that all resource node type produce basically the same volume of materials at the same training level.

To outfit a single templar, with advanced weapon and armor that has no sheets rings, or other optional materials the the costs are. 

Sword   78
Boots   45
Chest   75
Gloves   45
Helmet   45
     
Total   288

Now let's assume that a single harvester is part of a group of 5 and they all need gear as well. I think 5 is actually being very conservative, I suspect with the level of interdependence required, the number is going to be more like 10/1 than 5/1, but let's just run 5 because that's the current group size.

So now our total required resources are not 288 but 1440.

Imagine the fun and excitement we will all have, trying to mine out 1.5k of resources over the course of several hours, before we can even get the most simple of gear made.

As you have seen with my tests, the average node without pots but with passives can produce around 6.  Because of stamina, it takes 30 seconds at a minimum to knock over a node, and move to the next one.  That means to outfit a group with even the most basic gear, a single harvester will have to expend a minimum of one hour of time on nodes. This is incredibly conservative.  I personally usually manage 100 ore per 30 minutes, not 180.

Then you have to deal with the fact that there is not always a node available, and you have to run and find others that have finished spawning. I personally usually manage 100 ore per 30 minutes,  so let's use that number and say it will take 7.5 hours for 1500 ore.

(I am going to run a test right now to verify these numbers, and update if I find a different base.)

Then take into account that there will be opposition, other players fighting for the same nodes and taking time. I don't deal with that as much now, because I sprit bank almost everything as quickly as I harvest it.   Let's say that player interference results in a net doubling of time commitment for the sake of argument, and our party is victorious and beats back the opposition. 15 hours of time to harvest.

Then we have to haul the resources back to a base, and negotiate with a crafter to build all our stuff, and other harvesters to trade with us.  Let's say that adds another hour. to round it off to 16 hours.

But wait, the objective is for these guys to be out as a group, so the actual player time invested in standing around while someone is hitting a node, actual becomes 16 hours * 5, or 80 player hours.

Then add in the other costs in picks, and food, etc. 

Now all of the above assumes that every piece of equipment is crafted without material loss. That at no point does the crafter decide to abort a build because of quality issues, and no combine failures happen.  Since that is a total fantasy, better increase required time by 20% for failed crafting experimentation. New total 96 total player hours to outfit 5 guys.

The REAL problem is that with the harvesting production curve being so short, that currently everyone is harvesting mostly solo, and providing for their own needs, because that is the most time efficient way to get resources. 

What I want is not for the passives to be removed, but for harvesters to be able to feel like they are actually producing enough material to supply themselves and others. In short, MORE MATERIAL than their untrained counterparts. If I need 4 fighter escorts to go into the field with me, I damn well better be able to harvest enough resources to supply all five of us with the needed materials.

With POI factories dropping thousands at once, who inn their right mind is going to waste time scrapping for 6 ore/node peanuts?

What I want, is 25 tiers of plentiful harvest, so that harvesters can feel like they can contribute to the whole team, without having to turn harvesting into a second job. More build white material is not going to impact the economy significantly, because the factory POI's are going to be dropping thousands, and any extra is just going to get fed to hungry spawners.

That's the real problem, not the passives perse.

TLDR; According to my testing and guesses with timing, a harvester will have to spend almost 8 hours on nodes, and another 8 messing around, to outfit a group of 5.

It may not have been the point you were attempting to prove, but it was the OP's premise and also my takeaway. But to paraphrase the difference between what you're saying and what I took away from it, am I correct to understand that what you're saying is that, as things are now, harvesting passives aren't inherently bad, but they don't contribute any toward fixing the problems that exist already?

If that was your intent, then whether they are "bad" or just "not good" is more of a semantic argument, and that's fair. Personally, I am of the opinion that any addition to a system that doesn't improve on existing problems is potentially bad because it makes the broken system bigger, even if it doesn't make the problems harder to fix. But that's just me.

Additionally, my understanding of your proposed solution was basically to increase both the granularity of the Plentiful Harvest system and the overall yield of harvesting itself. If that is correct, it isn't mutually exclusive from Anhrez/my proposal. In fact, combining the two seems like an even better idea. If the amount of work that goes into making trash-tier loot is overwhelming, that needs to be addressed, and if the specific value of gatherers is in question, that also needs to be addressed. The two issues can easily be solved together.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, goose said:

It may not have been the point you were attempting to prove, but it was the OP's premise and also my takeaway. But to paraphrase the difference between what you're saying and what I took away from it, am I correct to understand that what you're saying is that, as things are now, harvesting passives aren't inherently bad, but they don't contribute any toward fixing the problems that exist already?

If that was your intent, then whether they are "bad" or just "not good" is more of a semantic argument, and that's fair. Personally, I am of the opinion that any addition to a system that doesn't improve on existing problems is potentially bad because it makes the broken system bigger, even if it doesn't make the problems harder to fix. But that's just me.

Additionally, my understanding of your proposed solution was basically to increase both the granularity of the Plentiful Harvest system and the overall yield of harvesting itself. If that is correct, it isn't mutually exclusive from Anhrez/my proposal. In fact, combining the two seems like an even better idea. If the amount of work that goes into making trash-tier loot is overwhelming, that needs to be addressed, and if the specific value of gatherers is in question, that also needs to be addressed. The two issues can easily be solved together.

Correct. I think they solve the problem of new players needing to be able to contribute enough to their own success while they learn the ropes and try to find compatible friends/team mates, as well as give them an idea for what to expect if they choose to become full time harvesters.

I think you just described the entire development process. Adding new systems you think will help the game, but may break it until the conflicts can be resolved. That's how I see the passives right now.  A new dial that unfortunately was set to 11, but fortunately highlighted the problem with the existing system by making it so glaringly obvious.

I'm up for any solution, or combination of solutions,  that makes harvesters a desirable profession, instead of an unappealing necessity. 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
Link to post
Share on other sites

@KrakkenSmacken I think its interesting that you consider the extremely low volume of materials the key problem.

For one thing, what if the devs intended volume of resources to be low? The goal isn't to have a single gatherer provide resources for an entire organization. Its designed to encourage people to work together to gather the materials needed to do so. The volume itself might not be a bug at all. They might actually think this is TOO much. 

I suppose my point is, your making complaints about how training doesn't increase the volume enough, when you should be asking how much do the devs think is enough?

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, scree said:

@KrakkenSmacken I think its interesting that you consider the extremely low volume of materials the key problem.

For one thing, what if the devs intended volume of resources to be low? The goal isn't to have a single gatherer provide resources for an entire organization. Its designed to encourage people to work together to gather the materials needed to do so. The volume itself might not be a bug at all. They might actually think this is TOO much. 

I suppose my point is, your making complaints about how training doesn't increase the volume enough, when you should be asking how much do the devs think is enough?

So now guilds need more that one copper guy, and more than one iron guy, and more than one gold guy.....

How custard big does a guild need to be before it becomes self sufficient? That's just designing a house of cards if that's the intent.

Your final question is fair enough.  However I would put it to you that the POI factories are going to produce 1000's at one shot.  They obviously intend for the hungry spawners to eat enough of the white and lower materials to justify a source that provides 1000's in a single event.  It can't be that scarcity of resources is the issue, when it would take a single crafter five hours and thirty four minutes (5:34 : I did the math), to duplicate the impact of a single POI production.

It is also about how training makes you feel.  Right now with the instant switch passives, there is no significant sense of progression over a 6 month period of training.  Sense of progression is critical for achiever players to feel like they have achieved something. Right now, six months in, you don't feel that at all, except as it relates to pick decay.

So you have a choice for getting 3000 materials.  Guard and run with one or more harvesters for 5 and a half hours, OR, guard a single caravan of pack animals from a POI, and probably take less than an hour.

See why I think volume is a big problem?

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
Link to post
Share on other sites

The bottom table is what I envision as a possibility for volumes and plentiful harvest, based on the spreadsheet I saw previously.

L1MmfBl.jpg

It has an additional concept, the "Block" of materials, which is where the bulk of the harvester training gets it's additional volume from.  These are the same kinds of blocks that POI factories (really need a better word for that) drop, in that they need to be broken to constituent parts, put a heavy snare effect on them so that pack animals need to be used, and if broken in the field are extremely lossy (5/1). That way the only way for harvesters to really get good volume is with team play, but they do have some access to better volume solo if they are willing to live with the lossy behavior.

In this model the passives (+3), alchemy (+3), training (1-20) (EDIT: This currently assumes a new training node of plentiful harvest. When I built the table I forgot that we get 1 rank for free, which means we currently only train 3 node, or 15 in this model.) and leadership (1-5) all stack, so it is possible to reach the 25 cap in a few different ways. After 160 days of training,

  • The bold row is where I would make it today in copper.
  • The italic row is where I would be with with other ores.

This is the Rank 10 table.

Current Pips New Pips starting characters Plentiful Harvest Level Clear Clear Block Block Size White White Block

Block

Size

Green Green Block Block Size Blue Blue Block

Block

Size

Purple Purple Block

Block

Size

Orange
1 All 1 50%                              
1 Passive 2 100%                              
1 Passive 3 100%                              
1 Passive 4       50%                        
1 Alchemy 5       100%                        
2 Alchemy 6   10% 10 100%                        
2

Alchemy

Me other Ore

7   20% 10 100%                        
2   8   30% 10 100%                        
2   9   40% 10 100%                        
2   10   50% 10 100%                        
3   11   60% 15 100% 10% 10 25%                  
3   12   70% 15 100% 20% 10 50%                  
3   13   80% 15 100% 30% 10 75%                  
3   14   90% 15 100% 40% 10 100%                  
3   15   100% 15 100% 50% 10 100%                  
4   16       100% 60% 15 100% 5% 10 10%            
4 Me Copper 17       100% 70% 15 100% 10% 10 20%            
4   18       100% 80% 15 100% 15% 10 30%            
4   19       100% 90% 15 100% 20% 10 40%            
4   20       100% 100% 15 100% 25% 10 50%            
5   21       100% 100% 25 100% 30% 15 60% 10% 10        
5   22       100% 100% 25 100% 35% 15 70% 20% 10        
5   23       100% 100% 25 100% 40% 15 80% 30% 10 10%      
5   24       100% 100% 25 100% 45% 15 90% 30% 10 20% 10% 10  
5   25       100% 100% 25 100% 50% 15 100% 30% 10 30% 15% 10 10%
Edited by KrakkenSmacken
Numbers off for amount of plentiful harvest training nodes possible currently. Comment reflects that.
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

So now guilds need more that one copper guy, and more than one iron guy, and more than one gold guy.....

How custard big does a guild need to be before it becomes self sufficient? That's just designing a house of cards if that's the intent.

Your final question is fair enough.  However I would put it to you that the POI factories are going to produce 1000's at one shot.  They obviously intend for the hungry spawners to eat enough of the white and lower materials to justify a source that provides 1000's in a single event.  It can't be that scarcity of resources is the issue, when it would take a single crafter five hours and thirty four minutes (5:34 : I did the math), to duplicate the impact of a single POI production.

It is also about how training makes you feel.  Right now with the instant switch passives, there is no significant sense of progression over a 6 month period of training.  Sense of progression is critical for achiever players to feel like they have achieved something. Right now, six months in, you don't feel that at all, except as it relates to pick decay.

So you have a choice for getting 3000 materials.  Guard and run with one or more harvesters for 5 and a half hours, OR, guard a single caravan of pack animals from a POI, and probably take less than an hour.

See why I think volume is a big problem?

Uhhh wait. You thought one copper guy was going to be enough? LOL. How big is your guild anyways? 6 guys? It should never be possible for a single person to provide enough resources for a medium sized guild. Ore is probably one of the most in-demand types of resources in the game. 

No wonder your complaining about drop rates. You want a single person to be able to provide a single resource type for what, a guild of 25? You crazy.

I wouldn't count on POI's solving the problem either, they are supposed to be slag resources used to construct cities, not gear. Totally different crafting picture.

Edited by scree
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, scree said:

Uhhh wait. You thought one copper guy was going to be enough? LOL. How big is your guild anyways? 6 guys? It should never be possible for a single person to provide enough resources for a medium sized guild. Ore is probably one of the most in-demand types of resources in the game. 

No wonder your complaining about drop rates. You want a single person to be able to provide a single resource type for what, a guild of 25? You crazy.

I wouldn't count on POI's solving the problem either, they are supposed to be slag resources used to construct cities, not gear. Totally different crafting picture.

My math is based on 1 supplier for 5-10 characters, (if you bothered to actually read my post you would know that),  this is based on the the following.

  • 5 ore types
  • 5 stone types
  • 5 wood types
  • 5 leather/creature types
  • 9 race body types

The Copper harvester/s will need to supply ALL the copper for the other members of the guild.

So for a guild to just have one of each harvester, that's 29 players. No matter what you do, one player will have to supply at a minimum, 29 people with copper. The logic that if one person can't put in enough effort to supply the guild, the answer is to double the number of people is just flawed and irrational, because you're also going to double the need at the same time, as you have to expand all the other harvester types as well.

Double that for your requirements of more than one per guild, and now you are talking that guilds need to be 58 guy's strong, in JUST HARVESTERs. 

The Copper harvester(s) will need to supply ALL the copper for the 56 non-copper harvesters, and then the 60 crafters that have to support them, and then the 60 combat guys who can't be arsed to do those JOBS and simply want to fight and play the game.

Who the hell is going to have time for anything else, or a guild to be organized enough to pull together the 60 gatherers, and an equal number of crafters and fighters. Assuming a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 split, your talking about the minimal viable, self supporting guild size being 180 players.  

You know who is going to be able to field numbers like that? Chinese custard gold farmers, ALT accounts, and BS ZERG guilds, that's who.

Or do you have a different set of numbers that make sense given your assumptions.

Oh, and its not SLAG resources it's white quality, unless you can find a more recent official source, here is the place it's discussed.

Talking about white material harvested not from POI's 3:31. There is no intent for it to be a different material type.

  • Raph: "it might be better for dumping in the wall."
  • TBlair: "Exactly"

 

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
Link to post
Share on other sites

Well a few issues I have with your assumptions is that your small guild will even need all resource types. That's the whole point of my Stealthed article about Doctrines. You need to pick a universal bonus at launch and stick with it to ensure you have production means to produce what you want.

If you think a guild of 10 people is going to be able to meet any sort of production needs without some sort of narrowed focus, you really are delusional.

This game isn't based on making individuals viable, its based on guilds and organizations being so. I think 10 is arguably on the smaller side, and not likely to be the guild size they are aiming for.

Regardless, I still don't think a 10man guild could be viable even if you did narrow production needs down. You just don't have enough bodies to cover the range of gathering and crafting your going to need. I'm failing to see why they'd even allow for a ten man guild to produce everything it would need when compared to a larger organization (25 or so).

"Slag" is just my word for poor quality resources that come from POI's/starter areas, it's been used to describe materials. Like they said, not really useful for making items. That was my only point.

Edited by scree
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm saying this sincerely and not in spite or anything of the sort, but it seems as though the "find the fun" step was ateast partially skipped in regards to the crafting system. I know that it's early, but as Goose said, continually expanding a system that isn't fundamentally achieving the "is it fun?" core goal of the game yet seems unprudent.

I can't help feeling like a broken record, but I dare say the core of harvesting would work a lot better if it weren't designed around Clicker Heroes, with the only improvement being that you hold a single button instead of rapidly clicking. Heck... Even if you want it to be a more passive-ish system, we could at least have harvesting machines you have to set up and manage. The more often you check on them and tweak their operation (maybe re-aim them a bit to go around unwanted rock, or adjust the drill speed, etc, based on what you're seeing as it operates and extracts), the more efficient things are. But you still don't have to mess with them every 5 seconds. You could still leave them be and still get a pretty good haul. *shrug*

I digress. It seems like a good thing to try might be to ONLY put in two tiers of stuff, then simply nail down 2 things:

1) Establish a good rate of lowest-tier harvesting returns (i.e. "we don't want people to be able to turn out less than this amount of procurement and crafting success, because it's not fun")

2) Establish a good-feeling progression pace from one tier to the next.

Then, it would be much easier to go from there. *shrug*

This post brought to you by...
Lephys. Because everything's better with a smile facepalm.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, scree said:

Well a few issues I have with your assumptions is that your small guild will even need all resource types. That's the whole point of my Stealthed article about Doctrines. You need to pick a universal bonus at launch and stick with it to ensure you have production means to produce what you want.

If you think a guild of 10 people is going to be able to meet any sort of production needs without some sort of narrowed focus, you really are delusional.

This game isn't based on making individuals viable, its based on guilds and organizations being so. I think 10 is arguably on the smaller side, and not likely to be the guild size they are aiming for.

Regardless, I still don't think a 10man guild could be viable even if you did narrow production needs down. You just don't have enough bodies to cover the range of gathering and crafting your going to need. I'm failing to see why they'd even allow for a ten man guild to produce everything it would need when compared to a larger organization (25 or so).

"Slag" is just my word for poor quality resources that come from POI's/starter areas, it's been used to describe materials. Like they said, not really useful for making items. That was my only point.

Sigh. It's not all resource types, its volumes of available resources to produce goods.  

When it takes 30 minutes of harvesting at the barest minimum (No discipline crafting, no alchemy ingredients, no vessel parts, no specialized additives to armor, etc) to produce enough white resources for one person to have a weapon and armor, of any type at all, and harvesters are expected to provide enough raw material for at least 5 other players, you have a time/volume problem.  

Add in the fact that not all those resources will in fact produce any usable items due to crafting failures,  and that time does not even take into account upgraded gear (anything green or better), I can't see how you don't see it as a problem.

"Slag" has a very specific meaning in this game, and not the one you gave it. "Ore that is not of a type that can not combine for special properties nor be used in 'premium' recipes like parcels and alchemy." 

But I suppose if you're arguing from opinion and conjecture rather than evidence, you can use whatever made up space language you choose to try to confuse the issue.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Your viewing production in the bubble of thinking what you see is how production will operate come launch.

Crafters aren't going to be "making" anything if you are doing it right. You'll experiment a few times to get a good/great blueprint and then mass produce it.  The amount of failures you'll get is minimal once this blueprint system comes online. I'm of the mind that they don't intend for factory-runs of blueprints to fail in any way. 

I concede the poor choice in words around Slag; but they themselves said you won't want to use POI materials to produce any sort of equipment with it. I don't even consider it an option at this point even if it might become one later on. Perhaps in emergencies. 

Yes, I do believe the amount of time spent in this game gathering vs pvping is going to be lopsided. You'll need to be spending a good amount of time doing the former and less doing the later. You're being unspecific in what Campaign band you intend to play in too; this makes a huge difference in resource consumption rates (Dregs: extreme, Gods Reach: not so much).

I still fail to see why any guild should be rewarded for attempting to mass gather every conceivable type of resource at launch. IF you don't go into Crowfall's first campaign with a strategy and assignments for your guild members to train for, I don't see why you should be rewarded or given an out by the developers. Plan better. If your org is too small, consider alliances or recruiting more. No one built a castle/equipped an army with ten people back in Medieval Times, neither are you.

Edited by scree
Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, scree said:

Your viewing production in the bubble of thinking what you see is how production will operate come launch.

Crafters aren't going to be "making" anything if you are doing it right. You'll experiment a few times to get a good/great blueprint and then mass produce it.  The amount of failures you'll get is minimal once this blueprint system comes online. I'm of the mind that they don't intend for factory-runs of blueprints to fail in any way. 

I concede the poor choice in words around Slag; but they themselves said you won't want to use POI materials to produce any sort of equipment with it. I don't even consider it an option at this point even if it might become one later on. Perhaps in emergencies. 

Yes, I do believe the amount of time spent in this game gathering vs pvping is going to be lopsided. You'll need to be spending a good amount of time doing the former and less doing the later. You're being unspecific in what Campaign band you intend to play in too; this makes a huge difference in resource consumption rates (Dregs: extreme, Gods Reach: not so much).

I still fail to see why any guild should be rewarded for attempting to mass gather every conceivable type of resource at launch. IF you don't go into Crowfall's first campaign with a strategy and assignments for your guild members to train for, I don't see why you should be rewarded or given an out by the developers. Plan better. If your org is too small, consider alliances or recruiting more. No one built a castle/equipped an army with ten people back in Medieval Times, neither are you.

You won't mass produce anything, except maybe bars, sheets, rings etc, with these anemic harvesting volumes. Assuming 100 per run, a single run of bars will require two and a half hours of harvesting at a minimum. Some weapons take 12 bars, so that's going to be 30 hours of harvesting for a single run.

The second bold, was because they were assuming you would have access to higher quality resources in enough abundance that building white gear would be a waste of time. They kept talking in that video about "still useful" in relation to white materials, and putting "extra" into the walls.

My testing results demonstrate, that with unchanged quality and quantity, NOBODY is going to have enough materials to do that for at least the first 8 months regardless of campaign and node Tier.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/3/2017 at 3:50 PM, goose said:

Just for the record, I want to say that @KrakkenSmacken has successfully explained to me how the gatherer passives are bad - for everybody, not just the dedicated gatherers - through his continued explanations of how they impact play when compared to skill training. I also finally see why this is bad for gatherers in particular, since it lets anyone gain the most significant benefits of the skill training without actually doing any of the skill training.

Since I spent an awful lot of time in here trying to get the words "it isn't that I think you're wrong, it's that I don't understand why you think you're right" across, I figured I would chime back in to say "I got it. Thanks for clearing it up."

Over the weekend I made some "basic disciplines" that now appear in the Basics section of the crafting book. There is a new major "basic" discipline for combat, harvesting, and crafting. A few of the passives (mental fort/gathering boosts) have been removed from the default player kit, and placed into these new disciplines. It should offer a nice "basics" path to learning important aspects about Crowfall. Make a basic weapon, then basic armor, then basic disciplines.  Once you outgrow them, replace them.

 

Now Lets look at the data so we can examine if we think there is a bug, or if we just don't like the data.

Here are the r9 copper loot tables:

75%, 50%, 25% Hit Tables                    
Treasure Table Name Table 1 Chance Table 2 Chance Table 3 Chance Table 4 Chance Table 5 Chance
rank 9 copper damaged plentiful 1 1 white copper 50                
rank 9 copper damaged plentiful 2 1-2 white copper 100                
rank 9 copper damaged plentiful 3 1-2 white copper 100 ethereal dust 75            
rank 9 copper damaged plentiful 4 1-2 white copper 100 1 green copper 4 ethereal dust 75        
rank 9 copper damaged plentiful 5 1-2 white copper 100 1 green copper 5 1 blue copper 3 ethereal dust 75    
                     
0% Hit Table                    
Treasure Table Name Table 1 Chance Table 2 Chance Table 3 Chance Table 4 Chance Table 5 Chance
rank 9 copper final plentiful 1 1 white copper 100 ethereal dust 50            
rank 9 copper final plentiful 2 1 green copper 100 1 green copper 25 ethereal dust 100        
rank 9 copper final plentiful 3 1 green copper 100 1 green copper 50 1 green copper 25 ethereal dust 100    
rank 9 copper final plentiful 4 1 green copper 100 1 green copper 75 1 blue copper 25 ethereal dust 100    
rank 9 copper final plentiful 5 1 green copper 100 1 green copper 100 1 blue copper 50 1 epic copper 35 ethereal dust 100
                     
0% Critical Table (this table is rolled in addition to the 0% hit table)                  
Item Table Name Item 1 Chance Item 2 Chance Item 3 Chance Item 4 Chance Table 5 Chance
rank 9 copper critical (this table is rolled 1x) 1 green copper 15 1 blue copper 55 1 epic copper 28 1 leg copper 2    

Each table on a row is rolled independently of the other tables results. So plentiful 5 on an r9 for the final (0%) hit could give 2 green, 1 blue, 1 epic, and some dust in addition to a roll for a bonus if a crit was scored. Bonus table is rolled once per players critical amount value. Again this item table is rolled 1 time, it produces 1 extra item per hit. (unless your crit amount stat is higher)

Generally the "damaged" (75, 50, 25) stages give white quality resources with a very small chance of higher quality bonus drops. 5% / 3% may seem small, but these would be in addition to the white drops if they do hit. Not to mention on a single node they both get rolled 3 times.

The final hit table is where all the color lives, in addition to the potential for a critical. You can see why the critical/critical amount stats are so important.

Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
Follow us on Twitter 
@CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook
 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

Over the weekend I made some "basic disciplines" that now appear in the Basics section of the crafting book. There is a new major "basic" discipline for combat, harvesting, and crafting. A few of the passives (mental fort/gathering boosts) have been removed from the default player kit, and placed into these new disciplines. It should offer a nice "basics" path to learning important aspects about Crowfall. Make a basic weapon, then basic armor, then basic disciplines.  Once you outgrow them, replace them.

 

Now Lets look at the data so we can examine if we think there is a bug, or if we just don't like the data.

Here are the r9 copper loot tables:

 

75%, 50%, 25% Hit Tables                    
Treasure Table Name Table 1 Chance Table 2 Chance Table 3 Chance Table 4 Chance Table 5 Chance
rank 9 copper damaged plentiful 1 1 white copper 50                
rank 9 copper damaged plentiful 2 1-2 white copper 100                
rank 9 copper damaged plentiful 3 1-2 white copper 100 ethereal dust 75            
rank 9 copper damaged plentiful 4 1-2 white copper 100 1 green copper 4 ethereal dust 75        
rank 9 copper damaged plentiful 5 1-2 white copper 100 1 green copper 5 1 blue copper 3 ethereal dust 75    
                     
0% Hit Table                    
Treasure Table Name Table 1 Chance Table 2 Chance Table 3 Chance Table 4 Chance Table 5 Chance
rank 9 copper final plentiful 1 1 white copper 100 ethereal dust 50            
rank 9 copper final plentiful 2 1 green copper 100 1 green copper 25 ethereal dust 100        
rank 9 copper final plentiful 3 1 green copper 100 1 green copper 50 1 green copper 25 ethereal dust 100    
rank 9 copper final plentiful 4 1 green copper 100 1 green copper 75 1 blue copper 25 ethereal dust 100    
rank 9 copper final plentiful 5 1 green copper 100 1 green copper 100 1 blue copper 50 1 epic copper 35 ethereal dust 100
                     
0% Critical Table (this table is rolled in addition to the 0% hit table)                  
Item Table Name Item 1 Chance Item 2 Chance Item 3 Chance Item 4 Chance Table 5 Chance
rank 9 copper critical (this table is rolled 1x) 1 green copper 15 1 blue copper 55 1 epic copper 28 1 leg copper 2    

Each table on a row is rolled independently of the other tables results. So plentiful 5 on an r9 for the final (0%) hit could give 2 green, 1 blue, 1 epic, and some dust in addition to a roll for a bonus if a crit was scored. Bonus table is rolled once per players critical amount value. Again this item table is rolled 1 time, it produces 1 extra item per hit. (unless your crit amount stat is higher)

Generally the "damaged" (75, 50, 25) stages give white quality resources with a very small chance of higher quality bonus drops. 5% / 3% may seem small, but these would be in addition to the white drops if they do hit. Not to mention on a single node they both get rolled 3 times.

The final hit table is where all the color lives, in addition to the potential for a critical. You can see why the critical/critical amount stats are so important.

Honestly, I don't like harvesting and crafting in a general sense - too much math for me. I like wandering around picking flowers and making maps and not paying enough attention to peoples' guild tags and just walking right up to enemies and being surprised when they kill me. I just want the general discourse brought down into territory that scans for people who don't deal with graphs and flow charts for a living. xD

That said, I 100% support the idea of waiting until the finished game systems are in and the tutorial-esque systems are in place, or at least conceptualized, before getting too deep into the "here is what is wrong and why" mentality that seems so common here. I often feel like there's a disconnect between how you guys have said you want systems to work and how the player base feels like they work - no, maybe more importantly, how the player base feels like the systems are INTENDED to work. The last two pages of math have mostly gone over my head, but the fact that a lot of people who are clearly better at math and probability than I am seem to be having fundamental disagreements about what the numbers are and what the numbers mean suggests that there's some miscommunication somewhere.

I'm on a lot of drugs right now, though, so I mean...I could be totally off.

That said, my...let's be generous and call it an "understanding" of your chart up there does suggest that critical bonuses are (will be?) more important than I've been giving them credit for, especially when it comes to making high quality gear. But without an understanding of how exactly advanced equipment will differ from gray/white equipment (basic? white? even the terminology is kind of nebulous at this stage), it's hard to really internalize just how much of a difference that makes.

Not sure that made sense, so lemme try again. If the goal is for most people to use white or gray gear, which can be crafted using the resources collected en masse from POIs, then I guess the current pace at which we can harvest green+ materials makes sense. But if the goal is for harvesters to be the primary source of materials for use in crafting standard gear, especially if the current rate at which we can craft gear is accelerated, then it feels very slow, especially once the roles are divided and everyone isn't always making all of their own gear.

This may just be an issue of us not knowing where you intend to go with the systems later on, but even if that is the only issue and the plan you all intend to execute is one that will make everyone happy once it goes online...until it goes online, we're kind of at a loss.

Speaking of drugs, I feel like this was more rambly than it was supposed to be. If it didn't make sense, ignore it, I guess? I'm gonna click submit now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

Over the weekend I made some "basic disciplines" that now appear in the Basics section of the crafting book. There is a new major "basic" discipline for combat, harvesting, and crafting. A few of the passives (mental fort/gathering boosts) have been removed from the default player kit, and placed into these new disciplines. It should offer a nice "basics" path to learning important aspects about Crowfall. Make a basic weapon, then basic armor, then basic disciplines.  Once you outgrow them, replace them.

 

Now Lets look at the data so we can examine if we think there is a bug, or if we just don't like the data.

Here are the r9 copper loot tables:

 

75%, 50%, 25% Hit Tables                    
Treasure Table Name Table 1 Chance Table 2 Chance Table 3 Chance Table 4 Chance Table 5 Chance
rank 9 copper damaged plentiful 1 1 white copper 50                
rank 9 copper damaged plentiful 2 1-2 white copper 100                
rank 9 copper damaged plentiful 3 1-2 white copper 100 ethereal dust 75            
rank 9 copper damaged plentiful 4 1-2 white copper 100 1 green copper 4 ethereal dust 75        
rank 9 copper damaged plentiful 5 1-2 white copper 100 1 green copper 5 1 blue copper 3 ethereal dust 75    
                     
0% Hit Table                    
Treasure Table Name Table 1 Chance Table 2 Chance Table 3 Chance Table 4 Chance Table 5 Chance
rank 9 copper final plentiful 1 1 white copper 100 ethereal dust 50            
rank 9 copper final plentiful 2 1 green copper 100 1 green copper 25 ethereal dust 100        
rank 9 copper final plentiful 3 1 green copper 100 1 green copper 50 1 green copper 25 ethereal dust 100    
rank 9 copper final plentiful 4 1 green copper 100 1 green copper 75 1 blue copper 25 ethereal dust 100    
rank 9 copper final plentiful 5 1 green copper 100 1 green copper 100 1 blue copper 50 1 epic copper 35 ethereal dust 100
                     
0% Critical Table (this table is rolled in addition to the 0% hit table)                  
Item Table Name Item 1 Chance Item 2 Chance Item 3 Chance Item 4 Chance Table 5 Chance
rank 9 copper critical (this table is rolled 1x) 1 green copper 15 1 blue copper 55 1 epic copper 28 1 leg copper 2    

Each table on a row is rolled independently of the other tables results. So plentiful 5 on an r9 for the final (0%) hit could give 2 green, 1 blue, 1 epic, and some dust in addition to a roll for a bonus if a crit was scored. Bonus table is rolled once per players critical amount value. Again this item table is rolled 1 time, it produces 1 extra item per hit. (unless your crit amount stat is higher)

Generally the "damaged" (75, 50, 25) stages give white quality resources with a very small chance of higher quality bonus drops. 5% / 3% may seem small, but these would be in addition to the white drops if they do hit. Not to mention on a single node they both get rolled 3 times.

The final hit table is where all the color lives, in addition to the potential for a critical. You can see why the critical/critical amount stats are so important.

@thomasblair why do rank 9 nodes need to drop white quality at all? At rank 9 shouldn't green or even blue be the baseline? I think that's a common complaint that the higher rank nodes are much harder and consume more durability with not enough difference in drop quality compared to a lower rank node. 

If I venture into the dregs to hit a rank 10 I don't want to see any white quality drops.

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

YouTube - Twitch - Website

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Twobears said:

huh...

Looks like the loot tables are going to be MUCH less generous than what we are used to...

I've had 4+ purples drop from L5 nodes with plentiful 3 on multiple occasion.

 

 

Case in point: math math math, question marks?

Edit: to clarify, we've got lots of math and not all of it agrees with the rest of the math and some of it doesn't make sense and we don't know which maths are accurate today and which maths will be accurate tomorrow and there's a lot of speculating and raeg.

Can't we all just get along? With math?

Edited by goose

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...