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Harvesting Passives ... Why they hurt gatherers


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2 minutes ago, blazzen said:

@thomasblair why do rank 9 nodes need to drop white quality at all? At rank 9 shouldn't green or even blue be the baseline? I think that's a common complaint that the higher rank nodes are much harder and consume more durability with not enough difference in drop quality compared to a lower rank node. 

If I venture into the dregs to hit a rank 10 I don't want to see any white quality drops.

Maybe because white is common quality :P

On a serious note, I agree that the Rank 7+ nodes should drop blue and green mats more commonly than white mats, with a ~10-25% chance for purple and orange mats to drop on final hits. 

If you're trying to balance the rarity of these mats, then make the nodes themselves extremely rare and a gripe to find in a 26,000 km^2 campaign world. Make them rare in the world, not in the loot table.

Just my 4 half pennies.

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"10 people on a node" I'm going to play the "that's dumb" card on that statement. (just like a soccer ref, and the card is yellow) I mean seriously; between player collision, the size of the nodes,

I try to respond only to dev posts, but this one needs a rebuttal, and you're normally fairly bright. This isn't a slap in the face to gatherers.  It's a means to make the first year of the game

Are these going to be in game? if not then please ignore the following rant, but from what I read above it seems like they are in ... and if do its a gut-punch to one general tab option. So I spe

1 minute ago, coolster50 said:

Maybe because white is common quality :P

On a serious note, I agree that the Rank 7+ nodes should drop blue and green mats more commonly than white mats, with a ~10-25% chance for purple and orange mats to drop on final hits. 

If you're trying to balance the rarity of these mats, then make the nodes themselves extremely rare and a gripe to find in a 26,000 km^2 campaign world. Make them rare in the world, not in the loot table.

Just my 4 half pennies.

Yes. Make my inattentive ass more useful. GIVE ME ALL THE POWER. +___+

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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42 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

 

The final hit table is where all the color lives, in addition to the potential for a critical. You can see why the critical/critical amount stats are so important.

Can you please clarify how the critical chance / critical amount stats modify this table.

For example, if I have +10% to critical amount, does this mean that IF I get a crit AND something drops there is a 10% chance that I get two doobers instead of one?

 

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20 minutes ago, blazzen said:

@thomasblair why do rank 9 nodes need to drop white quality at all? At rank 9 shouldn't green or even blue be the baseline? I think that's a common complaint that the higher rank nodes are much harder and consume more durability with not enough difference in drop quality compared to a lower rank node. 

If I venture into the dregs to hit a rank 10 I don't want to see any white quality drops.

They have to maintain the rarity of resources and making "uncommon"(green) or "rare"(blue) resources effectively "common" (by guaranteeing their availability), it renders the rarity moot.  

Higher ranked nodes should not guarantee rarer resources, they should only offer a greater chance to obtain them. 

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1 minute ago, chodie said:

They have to maintain the rarity of resources and making "uncommon"(green) or "rare"(blue) resources effectively "common" (by guaranteeing their availability), it renders the rarity moot.  

Higher ranked nodes should not guarantee rarer resources, they should only offer a greater chance to obtain them. 

They also have to make the higher rank nodes worth the effort. They can maintain rarity of resources while guaranteeing rarer resources if the higher rank nodes themselves are rarer.

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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4 minutes ago, Twobears said:

Can you please clarify how the critical chance / critical amount stats modify this table.

For example, if I have +10% to critical amount, does this mean that IF I get a crit AND something drops there is a 10% chance that I get two doobers instead of one?

 

 

Critical Chance should be a %, and this is checked when the 0% explosion happens. Either you score a crit or not. We have a UI widget we want to get hooked up which shows CRIT, when you actually land a crit.

If you crit, then your Critical Amount stat, which should be a flat number like +1, +2, +3. is added to the base of 1 on that crit table. (scoring a crit always gives 1 no matter what your amount is) For example in the table provided, assuming you have a +3, you would get 4 rolls on the crit table, which leads to an additional 4 things from that node. (The best outcome would be 4 rolls under 2 which produces 4 legs of course!)

Thomas Blair
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54 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

Over the weekend I made some "basic disciplines" that now appear in the Basics section of the crafting book. There is a new major "basic" discipline for combat, harvesting, and crafting. A few of the passives (mental fort/gathering boosts) have been removed from the default player kit, and placed into these new disciplines. It should offer a nice "basics" path to learning important aspects about Crowfall. Make a basic weapon, then basic armor, then basic disciplines.  Once you outgrow them, replace them.

Perhaps...

Here's my concern:  Right now, the combat disciplines are extremely powerful.  Many of the abilities feel more powerful than the kit for various classes.  

(For example, compare field surgeon and legio heals)

If you force new players to slot basic disciplines it is going to dramatically increase the advantage that better trained characters have over them.

It feels like you are going to make the power curve significantly worse, not better.

 

 

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1 hour ago, thomasblair said:

Over the weekend I made some "basic disciplines" that now appear in the Basics section of the crafting book. There is a new major "basic" discipline for combat, harvesting, and crafting. A few of the passives (mental fort/gathering boosts) have been removed from the default player kit, and placed into these new disciplines. It should offer a nice "basics" path to learning important aspects about Crowfall. Make a basic weapon, then basic armor, then basic disciplines.  Once you outgrow them, replace them.

 

Now Lets look at the data so we can examine if we think there is a bug, or if we just don't like the data.

Here are the r9 copper loot tables:

 

75%, 50%, 25% Hit Tables                    
Treasure Table Name Table 1 Chance Table 2 Chance Table 3 Chance Table 4 Chance Table 5 Chance
rank 9 copper damaged plentiful 1 1 white copper 50                
rank 9 copper damaged plentiful 2 1-2 white copper 100                
rank 9 copper damaged plentiful 3 1-2 white copper 100 ethereal dust 75            
rank 9 copper damaged plentiful 4 1-2 white copper 100 1 green copper 4 ethereal dust 75        
rank 9 copper damaged plentiful 5 1-2 white copper 100 1 green copper 5 1 blue copper 3 ethereal dust 75    
                     
0% Hit Table                    
Treasure Table Name Table 1 Chance Table 2 Chance Table 3 Chance Table 4 Chance Table 5 Chance
rank 9 copper final plentiful 1 1 white copper 100 ethereal dust 50            
rank 9 copper final plentiful 2 1 green copper 100 1 green copper 25 ethereal dust 100        
rank 9 copper final plentiful 3 1 green copper 100 1 green copper 50 1 green copper 25 ethereal dust 100    
rank 9 copper final plentiful 4 1 green copper 100 1 green copper 75 1 blue copper 25 ethereal dust 100    
rank 9 copper final plentiful 5 1 green copper 100 1 green copper 100 1 blue copper 50 1 epic copper 35 ethereal dust 100
                     
0% Critical Table (this table is rolled in addition to the 0% hit table)                  
Item Table Name Item 1 Chance Item 2 Chance Item 3 Chance Item 4 Chance Table 5 Chance
rank 9 copper critical (this table is rolled 1x) 1 green copper 15 1 blue copper 55 1 epic copper 28 1 leg copper 2    

Each table on a row is rolled independently of the other tables results. So plentiful 5 on an r9 for the final (0%) hit could give 2 green, 1 blue, 1 epic, and some dust in addition to a roll for a bonus if a crit was scored. Bonus table is rolled once per players critical amount value. Again this item table is rolled 1 time, it produces 1 extra item per hit. (unless your crit amount stat is higher)

Generally the "damaged" (75, 50, 25) stages give white quality resources with a very small chance of higher quality bonus drops. 5% / 3% may seem small, but these would be in addition to the white drops if they do hit. Not to mention on a single node they both get rolled 3 times.

The final hit table is where all the color lives, in addition to the potential for a critical. You can see why the critical/critical amount stats are so important.

Would it be possible to have floating text (like combat floating text) for Harvesting? I think this would greatly help players identify what stat is at work when they make that final swing and it will connect the dots. You mentioned a UI widget but it also might help to display damage you are doing to a node. This will help new players understand the damage mechanic and might peak their sense of discovery to find out how they can better damage that node.

I have a fully trained Iron/Copper miner and was able to get 4 legendary ore's this last week with the plentiful 4 potion.

Also @thomasblair - As discussed last week regarding parties and stats. What if one player has a better crit stat and one player has a better crit amount stat. Does it combine the best state from each player?

Edited by Tark

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@thomasblair posting nude math equations?! I love it when the Devs wear that transparent dress! :wub: 

 

P.S. I'm not trying to say ACE are being stingy on the details, I can see plenty of reasons why it would be bad to share everything at this tentative stage... I just want to give my +1 for them being as transparent as they can :lol: 

Edited by Xarrayne

P.S. Grr Winterblades 🦌

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28 minutes ago, goose said:

Yes. Make my inattentive ass more useful. GIVE ME ALL THE POWER. +___+

Isn't it more fun if you're just wandering around the world and you just happen to find a rank 10 node, and when you harvest it you get nothing but oranges? :D Make exploration rewarding! :P

5 minutes ago, Tark said:

Also @thomasblair - As discussed last week regarding parties and stats. What if one player has a better crit stat and one player has a better crit amount stat. Does it combine the best state from each player?

It depends on whoever gets the last hit (or first hit, I forget)

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10 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

 

Critical Chance should be a %, and this is checked when the 0% explosion happens. Either you score a crit or not. We have a UI widget we want to get hooked up which shows CRIT, when you actually land a crit.

If you crit, then your Critical Amount stat, which should be a flat number like +1, +2, +3. is added to the base of 1 on that crit table. (scoring a crit always gives 1 no matter what your amount is) For example in the table provided, assuming you have a +3, you would get 4 rolls on the crit table, which leads to an additional 4 things from that node. (The best outcome would be 4 rolls under 2 which produces 4 legs of course!)

I got 5 legendary copper from a single node the other day, but that was with the mining passive + all the potions and some training. I just wonder how hard it is going to be to get better than white without the potions as they add a significant amount of crit chance/amount.

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5 minutes ago, blazzen said:

They also have to make the higher rank nodes worth the effort. They can maintain rarity of resources while guaranteeing rarer resources if the higher rank nodes themselves are rarer.

Agreed, they should be worth the effort. That said, ideally no one short of 5 plentiful harvest in training and a 40+ tool will even attempt to whack a rank 9 or 10 node, but it will happen. To that end I don't think making the high-ranking nodes rare on the map as a means of restricting the output of rarer resources is the best answer. I maintain that white should be common, green should be uncommon, etc... Guaranteeing uncommon or rare or even epic resources ceases to make those resources true to their descriptive name.  

I like the idea of whacking on rank 10 nodes for hours on end only to maybe get enough stuff for half a blue weapon, it keeps the descriptors of quality true to their name.  

"Rare" colored weapons should actually be rare. If everyone has one, they aren't rare.  

 

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Hey @thomasblair since your answering questions.

I have one that I feel is extremely important. And I might get banned for asking it.

 

Will there be a punishment for those who purposely exploit bugs or glitches in the game? If so when.  This includes those using duplication glitches, or say a bug that say if your tool is exactly +5.62 in mining you always get legendary ore.

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Just now, coolster50 said:

Isn't it more fun if you're just wandering around the world and you just happen to find a rank 10 node, and when you harvest it you get nothing but oranges? :D Make exploration rewarding! :P

It depends on whoever gets the last hit (or first hit, I forget)

Nope, its never been that way. These are all theories from players that were never true because we attempted to find patterns. TB confirmed last week in the ACE forum that this is not the case and it should take the stats of the highest harvester as long as they do enough damage to the node (I think 20 percent). I cant quote the post verbatim because its against the rules but I'm sure they don't mind debunking the old theories. Maybe he will explain that portion to us. I don't like secrecy regarding how things work because it causes issues with players thinking the system is broken, when the more likely scenario is we just don't understand it because they haven't given us the tools to do so.

We've done trial and error mixed with RNG, which never really gives you a true answer on what is going on behind the scenes.

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3 minutes ago, Arkade said:

I got 5 legendary copper from a single node the other day, but that was with the mining passive + all the potions and some training. I just wonder how hard it is going to be to get better than white without the potions as they add a significant amount of crit chance/amount.

You can add a fair amount of crit through tools, leadership buff, weapons, and armor.
You can make a purple mining weapon and get 1.5 crit on that alone (add the mining seal to your all copper bars). I forget how much armor adds but I'd guess you can get another 2 percent on armor, maybe more.

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1 hour ago, Twobears said:

Perhaps...

Here's my concern:  Right now, the combat disciplines are extremely powerful.  Many of the abilities feel more powerful than the kit for various classes.  

(For example, compare field surgeon and legio heals)

If you force new players to slot basic disciplines it is going to dramatically increase the advantage that better trained characters have over them.

It feels like you are going to make the power curve significantly worse, not better.

 

 

 

Its a great place to put a stepping stone for a mere 12 named stone when people login. In fact most folks might end up using these for some time. Or do you assume a new player is going to have instant access to a Polished Soulstone, be able to find a thrall of the type of Discipline they want to make, have the skill to capture it, and then get it crafted into the appropriate Major Discipline? Do remember the ease of acquiring disciplines now is for testing only, this is not the vision for the end game.

If they have someone twink them out, different story, but someone went through the effort of making that discipline somewhere.

Folks rightly pointed out that no cost on the harvesting passives (beyond the passive slot) was just too good without the appropriate Major Discipline cost.
 

 

 

 

Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
Follow us on Twitter 
@CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook
 

 

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2 hours ago, Tark said:

Would it be possible to have floating text (like combat floating text) for Harvesting? I think this would greatly help players identify what stat is at work when they make that final swing and it will connect the dots. You mentioned a UI widget but it also might help to display damage you are doing to a node. This will help new players understand the damage mechanic and might peak their sense of discovery to find out how they can better damage that node.

I have a fully trained Iron/Copper miner and was able to get 4 legendary ore's this last week with the plentiful 4 potion.

Also @thomasblair - As discussed last week regarding parties and stats. What if one player has a better crit stat and one player has a better crit amount stat. Does it combine the best state from each player?

We totally should do floating text for harvesting. I was looking to add in some crit damage and other things, and this would def sell it. (crit damage, not crit harvest, don't get confused!)

Yah know it has been sometime since I looked at who's crit is used, I will check it out in morning.

2 hours ago, Xarrayne said:

@thomasblair posting nude math equations?! I love it when the Devs wear that transparent dress! :wub: 

 

P.S. I'm not trying to say ACE are being stingy on the details, I can see plenty of reasons why it would be bad to share everything at this tentative stage... I just want to give my +1 for them being as transparent as they can :lol: 

Well you guys are part of the process, so we try and be as transparent as possible. With the data table I provided here, peeps can puzzle over the data and maybe even come up with some per hour theoretical per hour maxes and such. If it helps I can give a rank 1 or 3 loot table listing for comparison.

 

1 hour ago, SirGeorge said:

Hey @thomasblair since your answering questions.

I have one that I feel is extremely important. And I might get banned for asking it.

 

Will there be a punishment for those who purposely exploit bugs or glitches in the game? If so when.  This includes those using duplication glitches, or say a bug that say if your tool is exactly +5.62 in mining you always get legendary ore.

I honestly have no idea how Tyrant and Pann are handling those folks. /

I would hope folks find the bad bugs and report em so we can fix them. Thanks to videos we are made aware pretty quickly these days and try to fix them as fast as possible. It only make the game better in the long run and means there is less to clean up in live.

I would love to know the second one, sounds more like a bad treasure table, as any loot table with a leg in it the chance is always very, very low.

Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
Follow us on Twitter 
@CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook
 

 

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43 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

We totally should do floating text for harvesting. I was looking to add in some crit damage and other things, and this would def sell it. (crit damage, not crit harvest, don't get confused!)

Yah know it has been sometime since I looked at who's crit is used, I will check it out in morning.

@thomasblair please do check that out. It would be awesome if we could create different types of picks (crit dmg vs crit harvest) for a party to get more stats. This would encourage party farming rather than solo farming (a goal of yours yes?). Also just to be clear I'm not asking for have the same stat from 2 different people stack. But if one person has higher crit, and the other person has higher plentiful, it would take the highest stat in each category and apply it to a party stat and affect the final result of the node being destroyed.

Just from mentioning the floating text in our guild discord there were overwhelming positive feels about this addition. If people don't feel think harvesting is rewarding enough maybe the suggestion above might help out with that without messing with loot tables. This could fix the issue of a non specalized harvesters feeling like they aren't contributing to the overall success of the mission. Now they can bring a +crit dmg pick to the group. (We need more uses for tin ore.. hint hint)

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1 hour ago, thomasblair said:

Well you guys are part of the process, so we try and be as transparent as possible. With the data table I provided here, peeps can puzzle over the data and maybe even come up with some per hour theoretical per hour maxes and such. If it helps I can give a rank 1 or 3 loot table listing for comparison.

 

Well we really do appreciate it, especially when this information is coming directly from the top! Knowing how the input equates to the output helps us min-max, but knowing how the numbers are supposed to add up also helps us recognise when they aren't doing so properly, and also lets people know when certain results are intended - less confusion and more accurate testing for all!

P.S. Grr Winterblades 🦌

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