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Dondagora

Crafting Disciplines, and how I believe they should be

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Let's begin with what I believe are three problems this concept may fix. First is alt accounting, the idea that combatant players will have alternative crafting accounts so that they can be autonomous in the game system. Second is homogenous crafting, that crafters of a specific discipline will eventually just end up the same due to the skill tree being the main difference between them at the beginning. Third is crafters seeming like a secondary role instead of a primary one, the latter being ACE's intended vision.

 

So, onto the point: Crafting disciplines should be specialized crafting abilities aimed to allow the crafter to add unique attributes to their crafted items. For instance, at the moment you may craft a chestplate that is more or less normal. With the Crafting Discipline "Fire-Blooded Smith" you can, at the cost of some crafting-specific resource [currently Experimentation Points, though we'll just call them points for now], add 3% Fire Resist against attacks that hit this armor. But wait, this is a Major Discipline! You have another power to allow you to add 3% Fire Reflect instead!

And, such that we don't lose out on imagination, here are a few other ideas: Shadow Weaver, to give "Increased Stealth stat during Night" to leather armor. Thunderstruck Forger, to add "50% of Slashing/Crushing/Piercing damage becomes Electric damage". Or how about Gunsword Maker, to give "Gain Active Power Pistol Shot" to a sword, an equipment that gives an actual Power to the wielder. Swordwhip Maker can have a similar effect to Spirit Whip, "Make Basic Attacks Chain".

 

The crux of the idea is to create such a vast array of crafter customization that it would be inefficient and expensive to attempt to alt-account them all. This is considering combinations, for instance having a crafter with both "Thunderstruck Forger" and "Gunsword Maker" could create a unique sword that has both Electric Damage and Pistol Shot attached to it. A guild might alt-account and make this combo themselves, but then there's the other crafter down the road who's a Thunderstruck Swordwhip Maker whose swords have Electric Damage and Chaining Attacks. Thus, even if someone poured the cash and resources into alt-accounting for every possible Discipline, it'd be very difficult to ever match the number of combinations.

This will diversify the crafting populace, help every crafter have an unique item to contribute to the economy. There may be better combinations to craft than others, and that's alright. Just like the combat disciplines, the crafting disciplines need not be completely balanced either. 

There is also the difficulty with such a system: it increases the risk for crafters in high-risk lose-all campaign rulesets. You die and lose your vessel, which has your crafting disciplines attached, and you lose your livelihood. This is also not too bad. It means that crafters shan't go lightly into these high-risk worlds, and will may be valued rather than slain by the wandering combatant as a source for better equipment.

 

Of course, there should be limitations on this. For instance, these additives from the Disciplines still cost points, which may take away from the base stats or durability of the original item. Sometimes a person may not find such additives worth the loss and just prefer normal armor and weaponry. These additives would, in addition, be more expensive, requiring additional items for the recipe. Thus, there is an economic curve with gaining access to this added level of customization, just as there is a curve for gaining Disciplines and Vessels.

 

This will go into the Suggestion Forum eventually, but for now I just want those with interest in Crowfall's economy to discuss this possibility. Criticisms, pros/cons, questions, ideas, etc. Any thoughts are welcome.

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14 minutes ago, Dondagora said:

So, onto the point: Crafting disciplines should be specialized crafting abilities aimed to allow the crafter to add unique attributes to their crafted items. For instance, at the moment you may craft a chestplate that is more or less normal. With the Crafting Discipline "Fire-Blooded Smith" you can, at the cost of some crafting-specific resource [currently Experimentation Points, though we'll just call them points for now], add 3% Fire Resist against attacks that hit this armor. But wait, this is a Major Discipline! You have another power to allow you to add 3% Fire Reflect instead!

And, such that we don't lose out on imagination, here are a few other ideas: Shadow Weaver, to give "Increased Stealth stat during Night" to leather armor. Thunderstruck Forger, to add "50% of Slashing/Crushing/Piercing damage becomes Electric damage". Or how about Gunsword Maker, to give "Gain Active Power Pistol Shot" to a sword, an equipment that gives an actual Power to the wielder. Swordwhip Maker can have a similar effect to Spirit Whip, "Make Basic Attacks Chain".

This will go into the Suggestion Forum eventually, but for now I just want those with interest in Crowfall's economy to discuss this possibility. Criticisms, pros/cons, questions, ideas, etc. Any thoughts are welcome.

This solution does not solve the original problem, just gates it a bit behind crafting disc.

Want to do "Fire-Blooded Smith", craft that disc, or Shadow Weaver, again, craft the disc.

The way they have the system so reliant on crafting and crafting skill, it's sort of hard to add any flair that stands outside of it.

Now, if some disciplines were drop only, or reward only, and restricted to one per campaign world.....

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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3 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

This solution does not solve the original problem, just gates it a bit behind crafting disc.

Want to do "Fire-Blooded Smith", craft that disc, or Shadow Weaver, again, craft the disc.

The way they have the system so reliant on crafting and crafting skill, it's sort of hard to add any flair that stands outside of it.

Now, if some disciplines were drop only, or reward only, and restricted to one per campaign world.....

Hm, I'm not so sure I understand your point. I'll address what I think you mean.

You craft the disciplines/runestones, but you require to gain that specific thrall first from a campaign world. Thus, disciplines will not be too easy to become or change at whim. Thus, thralls will be a rather limited resource per campaign world, and with hundreds of disciplines, it will be even more difficult to find the type you want.

Does this address your concern?

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2 minutes ago, Dondagora said:

Hm, I'm not so sure I understand your point. I'll address what I think you mean.

You craft the disciplines/runestones, but you require to gain that specific thrall first from a campaign world. Thus, disciplines will not be too easy to become or change at whim. Thus, thralls will be a rather limited resource per campaign world, and with hundreds of disciplines, it will be even more difficult to find the type you want.

Does this address your concern?

Yes. did not consider the specific thrall as an ingredient.  These test ones are slanting my view of discs.

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While certainly a nice idea in terms of crafter customization, I fail to see how it address the alt-accounting, or rather it would argue it almost seem to me it would encourage it more.

the thing if if you are crafting for a specific person(ie your main combat account) or group or people (your guild) You would know exactly what kind of traits to get, and thus go for getting the specific disciplines that you/your group would get the most out of. And by having your crafter on an alt that only logs in while you are crafting, would also mean much less risk of dieing, as a logged out account can not die, and thus much less of a risk of loosing those disciplines.

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28 minutes ago, Gummiel said:

While certainly a nice idea in terms of crafter customization, I fail to see how it address the alt-accounting, or rather it would argue it almost seem to me it would encourage it more.

the thing if if you are crafting for a specific person(ie your main combat account) or group or people (your guild) You would know exactly what kind of traits to get, and thus go for getting the specific disciplines that you/your group would get the most out of. And by having your crafter on an alt that only logs in while you are crafting, would also mean much less risk of dieing, as a logged out account can not die, and thus much less of a risk of loosing those disciplines.

It discourages alt-accounting due to the variety involved. While true, your guild can have alt-accounts specifically for certain stats, they wouldn't be able to provide for the diverse demands of their membership, thus promoting the purchasing of non-guild-crafted products. The guild may have 1~10~20 alt accounts, but it would still only cover a fraction of the possible combinations, and require a lot more money and in-game resources than the current iteration would imply. They would never be able to become wholly self-sufficient in terms of crafting.

 Also, there is no real lessening of risk. The alt-account crafter still needs to move to the proper location and be provided the resources to be of any use. With this system, it means that it'd be extremely difficult to have every type of crafter, in every variety, that a guild would want in their campaign land. To this extent, two things may happen: The guild will use mostly orthodox gear [thus not taking away much value from dedicated crafters] and/or have predictable equipment which can be countered [If they all wear fire-resistant chestplates, you'll learn to attack with not-fire].

The value of alt-accounts for crafting reduces significantly with a plethora of specialization. At least, that's the theory here. 

Edited by Dondagora

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1 hour ago, izkimar said:

You gotta harvest and craft the runes so you can harvest and craft. It's harvest/craftception, ya'll.

It's not really all that different than what I did last weekend with Gear.

Get slag to build an advanced pick, get gold/silver to build a mining crit pick, try to bootstrap it to blue with parchment, build a mining buff sword, go hit the nodes better.

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I believe this falls under the trust of this topic, so I'll put this here.

I generally like the concept of the crafting disciplines and am interested to seem some examples from ACE.  One thing that has drawn my interest that was mentioned some number of months ago (by someone from ACE - my memory says Mr. Blair, but I could be wrong) was that a crafter might specialize in a sub-component of a final product.  Say, for example, someone wants to make the best Rose Gold Metal Bars this side of the campaign worlds. 

Currently, the skill training system does not allow for such specialization and it might be ACE's intent to address this kind of specialization through the disciplines.  For the above example, in order to craft the best Rose Gold Metal Bars might include a major discipline focused on creating Rose Gold Bars (say with a bonus to either sheen or durability), or, perhaps more interestingly, might require a major discipline in Metal Bar durability, a major discipline that enhances crafted items made from Gold or a Gold Alloy, a minor discipline that enhances the sheen of a Copper based metal bar, a minor discipline that adds some kind of special crafting statistic to a crafted metal bar (say 3% fire damage to use an off-shoot of Dondagora's suggestion), and another minor discipline that gives some other kind of bonus (say increased effect of experimentation by 10% so an Amazing success is actually a 8.855% stat boost instead of 8.05%).  I haven't put much thought into which of those would be a "major" discipline and which would be a "minor" discipline, but you get my point. 

This kind of discipline based crafting of specialized sub-components adds another layer to differentiating crows and if supply is appropriately built in a roughly pyramidal fashion (roughly for every 1000 first stage (metal bar) crafting item, 100 second stage (cross-guard) crafting item, 10 third stage (hilt) crafting item, 1 fourth (final / sword) crafting item - or similarly linearly or exponentially scaling system of effective crafting discipline availability) allows a broad variety of basic components and a limited and specialized number of "master" crafters (the one's responsible for / focused on the final item).

TL;DR I'm interested in seeing the crafting disciplines as they take shape, and I see sub-component specialization through disciplines as another way to differentiate crafting crows to expand the number of alt accounts necessary to do everything (crafting-wise) in Crowfall. 

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3 hours ago, Ivellian said:

TL;DR I'm interested in seeing the crafting disciplines as they take shape, and I see sub-component specialization through disciplines as another way to differentiate crafting crows to expand the number of alt accounts necessary to do everything (crafting-wise) in Crowfall. 

As I recall, disciplines are linked to vessels rather than accounts.  So, I could have one vessel specializing in fiery gold bars and another in hilts and ...

Even so, I do like the idea.

One possible implementation would be to have a discipline in specialized crafting.  You slot whatever type of widget you want to specialize in as a component in making the discipline.  Not sure what the buff should be.  Perhaps an extra experimentation points.  (A unique buff would be cool, but I'm not sure how difficult it would be to implement this)

 

 


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"The cinnabar is a lie"

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As I recall, material and sub-component specialization is tied more to the Skill Tree, which I don't particularly mind. It will mean that a Rosegold Hilt Crafter will, no matter their vessel, be better with making Rosegold Hilts.

On the other hand, Crafters who take the time and obtain specialized vessels will be able to focus their goods even further. Just like combatants, crafters will have to build their Skill Tree and their Vessels toward their intended profession and, just like combatants, they have the chance to lose their vessel, but that's just part of life.

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2 hours ago, Dondagora said:

As I recall, material and sub-component specialization is tied more to the Skill Tree, which I don't particularly mind. It will mean that a Rosegold Hilt Crafter will, no matter their vessel, be better with making Rosegold Hilts.

On the other hand, Crafters who take the time and obtain specialized vessels will be able to focus their goods even further. Just like combatants, crafters will have to build their Skill Tree and their Vessels toward their intended profession and, just like combatants, they have the chance to lose their vessel, but that's just part of life.

I also recall some discussion of it being tied to the Skill Tree, but such specialization is lacking from the crafting skills at the moment.  Currently, I just have "Blacksmithing" to train in support of my Metal Bar and Sword crafting pursuit, but it lacks the sub-component specialization I'd like to see (I understand ACE is planning to revise the skill trees, but, without any suggestions about how it will be revised, I'm working with what I have).  I would very much appreciate that kind of specialization on the skill tree as it similarly expands the number of crows necessary to cover all the crafting bases (increasing diversity and other benefits).  As you suggest, some kind of combination between skills, disciplines, and equipment probably makes the most sense because we already have some interaction between skills and equipment.

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