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Silverback

3 types of play styles

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The allocation for skill points is unfair. Assuming there are three types of players:(knowing that a person will have a focus and pick up tertiary skills also)

  • Crafter
  • Resource gatherer
  • Pvper

And a VIP account has 1 skill for crafting or gathering and 3 points for classes then all players may max out their pvp and pick gatherer or crafter, but If you are mainly a crafter then your only option is pvp. You cannot advance both crafter and gathering at the same time (even through you might of specialized in mining or woodworking).

I am suggesting that you get 1 point for crafting/gathering and 1 point for classes, then the VIP gives you 1 or 2 more points to put wherever you want. 

Also pvpers can add combat skills if they don't craft/gather but crafters or gatherers can't add to their craft using the 3 'class' points. 

Its weighted so that everyone (no mater your playstyle) gets a fighting character and then either crafts or gatherers. 

 

One option would be to bring the explorer/gatherer down to the classes or eliminated the separation of points for a max of 4 to be placed anywhere you want..

Thx.

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I can agree with your statement  "The allocation for skill points is unfair." Crafters and gatherers appear to get the short end. You can craft if you want, you can gather if you want, but a combat player can come and roll you and take all your things. I believe the idea is so that you have to go out make friends and play with other humans (gross). Development is still in an early stage, so who knows maybe it will balance out nicely. As for me,  I want to pvp and craft, this is why I (and a lot of others) will most likely have a crafting alts.

As far as your suggestion for point allocation, if VIP  players have an advantage over the free to play crew, then it could easily be seen as pay to win.

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On 6/7/2017 at 3:23 PM, Silverback said:

The allocation for skill points is unfair. Assuming there are three types of players:(knowing that a person will have a focus and pick up tertiary skills also)

  • Crafter
  • Resource gatherer
  • Pvper

And a VIP account has 1 skill for crafting or gathering and 3 points for classes then all players may max out their pvp and pick gatherer or crafter, but If you are mainly a crafter then your only option is pvp. You cannot advance both crafter and gathering at the same time (even through you might of specialized in mining or woodworking).

I am suggesting that you get 1 point for crafting/gathering and 1 point for classes, then the VIP gives you 1 or 2 more points to put wherever you want. 

Also pvpers can add combat skills if they don't craft/gather but crafters or gatherers can't add to their craft using the 3 'class' points. 

Its weighted so that everyone (no mater your playstyle) gets a fighting character and then either crafts or gatherers. 

 

One option would be to bring the explorer/gatherer down to the classes or eliminated the separation of points for a max of 4 to be placed anywhere you want..

Thx.

While i sympathize, i feel like your concern borders on the idea of solo play, which the devs have clearly stated CF will not be. You have choices, but having all choices should not be the answer! To be successful you'll need harvesters and crafters, and pvp'ers will need both, but also have to protect those players to benefit - Its a mesh that works well for the social aspect of the game. 

On 6/8/2017 at 4:18 PM, AhSpike said:

I can agree with your statement  "The allocation for skill points is unfair." Crafters and gatherers appear to get the short end. You can craft if you want, you can gather if you want, but a combat player can come and roll you and take all your things. I believe the idea is so that you have to go out make friends and play with other humans (gross). Development is still in an early stage, so who knows maybe it will balance out nicely. As for me,  I want to pvp and craft, this is why I (and a lot of others) will most likely have a crafting alts.

As far as your suggestion for point allocation, if VIP  players have an advantage over the free to play crew, then it could easily be seen as pay to win.

 

"Crafters and gatherers appear to get the short end. You can craft if you want, you can gather if you want, but a combat player can come and roll you and take all your things" Basically as i stated above - No, crafters and gatherers will not get the short end because in order to be a competitive player/guild, everyone will need everyone. Again, its been stated several times, CF is not meant to be a solo player game. 

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The idea is that a crafter or harvester will need to team up with pvp'ers who can protect them while they harvest/craft. The problem with this is that players will circumvent this system of specialization by simply buying multiple accounts for the different roles. 


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4 hours ago, QuasiDoc said:

While i sympathize, i feel like your concern borders on the idea of solo play, which the devs have clearly stated CF will not be. You have choices, but having all choices should not be the answer! To be successful you'll need harvesters and crafters, and pvp'ers will need both, but also have to protect those players to benefit - Its a mesh that works well for the social aspect of the game. 

 

"Crafters and gatherers appear to get the short end. You can craft if you want, you can gather if you want, but a combat player can come and roll you and take all your things" Basically as i stated above - No, crafters and gatherers will not get the short end because in order to be a competitive player/guild, everyone will need everyone. Again, its been stated several times, CF is not meant to be a solo player game. 

I think what the OP is asking for is for VIP to give a choice between 2 additional classes or 2 additional universal or 1 additional for each. 

Edited by jetah

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9 minutes ago, jetah said:

I think what the OP is asking for is for VIP to give a choice between 2 additional classes or 2 additional universal or 1 additional for each. 

Possibly, but the sentence "I am suggesting that you get 1 point for crafting/gathering and 1 point for classes, then the VIP gives you 1 or 2 more points to put wherever you want." suggest he/she wants more points for crafting and harvesting essentially excluding the need for either a second account or need of help from other players. 

In short, he/she wants more points for crafting and gathering. 

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Just now, QuasiDoc said:

Possibly, but the sentence "I am suggesting that you get 1 point for crafting/gathering and 1 point for classes, then the VIP gives you 1 or 2 more points to put wherever you want." suggest he/she wants more points for crafting and harvesting essentially excluding the need for either a second account or need of help from other players. 

In short, he/she wants more points for crafting and gathering. 

wouldn't that happen if VIP could be swapped between classes, UT or both?  Why should those that want to fight have better opportunity than those that want to harvest and craft? Why should a fighter have 3 options for classes but a gatherer only have 1 specific material type they can harvest very well? If someone could gather slag really well, I suspect they could form it well enough into armor or weapons.


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Although ACE has separated into three play styles, there really are four. and the separation ACE has made is not really along those borders. (Crafter/Harvester play style are both achiever play styles).

Social had been permeated through everything, and is a component of some skills (Leadership).

This particular debate about VIP has been raging in multiple threads, for literally years.

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16 hours ago, QuasiDoc said:

While i sympathize, i feel like your concern borders on the idea of solo play, which the devs have clearly stated CF will not be. You have choices, but having all choices should not be the answer! To be successful you'll need harvesters and crafters, and pvp'ers will need both, but also have to protect those players to benefit - Its a mesh that works well for the social aspect of the game. 

While I see the potential, I don't know of a game that has actually attempted to go about it the same or similar way or at least been successful at it.

Most games that have the heavy specialization system seem to have a lot of alt users, multiple characters/roles per account, "easy" role change or grind to "max," lack of PVP focus (economy, little PVE), and so on.

Been too long and or played too short of a time, but UO, SWG, SB didn't work this way that I remember. EVE doesn't work this way. Albion which is the most recent similar game doesn't work this way. They all might share a bit here and there, but overall each is unique and no way to know if CF's system will actually pan out.

I totally get ACE's intention and fan support of the setup, but saying people will/should play a particular way in no way makes it reality. As many have pointed out, seems a lot more likely that alts will be the standard for those attempting to be at the top of the pack with those focused on XYZ only still having a place but lacking something due to the system.

As the passive trees are clearly a WIP and in-game mechanics not actually beig how it will work out in regards to access to things, no idea how well the time based specialization will succeed or not.

On topic, I get the OP's concerned and hopefully ACE makes VIP worth while to those that have little need for multiple classes. Be it they avoid PVP or simply want to play/train one class ever or at a time.

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5 hours ago, APE said:

While I see the potential, I don't know of a game that has actually attempted to go about it the same or similar way or at least been successful at it.

Most games that have the heavy specialization system seem to have a lot of alt users, multiple characters/roles per account, "easy" role change or grind to "max," lack of PVP focus (economy, little PVE), and so on.

Been too long and or played too short of a time, but UO, SWG, SB didn't work this way that I remember. EVE doesn't work this way. Albion which is the most recent similar game doesn't work this way. They all might share a bit here and there, but overall each is unique and no way to know if CF's system will actually pan out.

I totally get ACE's intention and fan support of the setup, but saying people will/should play a particular way in no way makes it reality. As many have pointed out, seems a lot more likely that alts will be the standard for those attempting to be at the top of the pack with those focused on XYZ only still having a place but lacking something due to the system.

As the passive trees are clearly a WIP and in-game mechanics not actually beig how it will work out in regards to access to things, no idea how well the time based specialization will succeed or not.

On topic, I get the OP's concerned and hopefully ACE makes VIP worth while to those that have little need for multiple classes. Be it they avoid PVP or simply want to play/train one class ever or at a time.

I understand the point of view "No game out there has these kind of limitations, so why should CF?" The simple answer is, CF (as it is today) creates a need for each other where as the games you listed do not, and for me, that is why i like the idea of limitations. Every game you listed has a system that allow for solo play because due to lack of limitations. 

 

With that said, its not impossible to play the way you want - You can still craft, harvest, and pvp. Its just that you can only specialize in so many ways - And i see nothing wrong with that. In short, there is nothing wrong with creating a system that forces harvesters to need pvp'ers and crafters - Crafters to need harvesters and pvp'ers, and pvp'ers to need both crafters and havesters. Sounds a lot like real life to me, and hence a more realistic system than "i can and/or should be able to do everything!"

 

Its about community! 

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23 minutes ago, QuasiDoc said:

I understand the point of view "No game out there has these kind of limitations, so why should CF?" The simple answer is, CF (as it is today) creates a need for each other where as the games you listed do not, and for me, that is why i like the idea of limitations. Every game you listed has a system that allow for solo play because due to lack of limitations. 

 

With that said, its not impossible to play the way you want - You can still craft, harvest, and pvp. Its just that you can only specialize in so many ways - And i see nothing wrong with that. In short, there is nothing wrong with creating a system that forces harvesters to need pvp'ers and crafters - Crafters to need harvesters and pvp'ers, and pvp'ers to need both crafters and havesters. Sounds a lot like real life to me, and hence a more realistic system than "i can and/or should be able to do everything!"

 

Its about community! 

CF does this through other ways that just training.  

There simply isn't enough time for 99% of people to be an Island unto themselves.  Even if you had every skill in the tree, your own personality about what you find fun, and the sheer logistical interdependence off all the parts, would still push you rely on others, even if you wanted to be independent.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing, only that because of this training is not the ONLY factor to consider when talking about player interdependence.

 

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3 hours ago, QuasiDoc said:

I understand the point of view "No game out there has these kind of limitations, so why should CF?" The simple answer is, CF (as it is today) creates a need for each other where as the games you listed do not, and for me, that is why i like the idea of limitations. Every game you listed has a system that allow for solo play because due to lack of limitations. 

With that said, its not impossible to play the way you want - You can still craft, harvest, and pvp. Its just that you can only specialize in so many ways - And i see nothing wrong with that. In short, there is nothing wrong with creating a system that forces harvesters to need pvp'ers and crafters - Crafters to need harvesters and pvp'ers, and pvp'ers to need both crafters and havesters. Sounds a lot like real life to me, and hence a more realistic system than "i can and/or should be able to do everything!"

Its about community! 

CF should try something new, but I see no evidence that it will actually work and if anything, "forces" players to go the alt route more than ever due to the "restrictive" game design.

Will be interesting to see the break down of roles and how many of each will make for a competitive force. 33/33/33 - 50/25/25 - 20/10/70? Along with how well alts will stand in for main roles of any kind.

Seems unlikely that we'll be able to do any role 24/7 and having 2-3 accounts to mix it up seems relatively easy and encouraged thanks to passive training.

I'm all for "needing" one another and avoiding the solo focus so many games have, just not sure if CF will actually do it any different or if it's just a superficial plan that doesn't account for how people actually will/want to play. Seems to be more evidence of players working around the system than with it the more restrictive it becomes.

Regardless, VIP and basic training should be looked at from multiple play styles not only from the assumption that everyone wants to play the same way (1 UT + 1-3 Class). Might miss a cash flow opportunity if it doesn't appeal to a variety of play styles.

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I believe a problem happened when people who played DAoC and earlier MMOs grew old, started families and didn't have 12 hours to dump into a hobby every day. Now that 'i don't have time' has progressed through to where games that are multiplayer are still solo friendly. We've lost the community of a game to have quality of life improvements such as LFG (looking for group) systems that auto match people based on role and instantly ports them to the area of interest. We no longer try to make a good name for ourselves and instead can troll and it doesn't affect us.

CF may have many campaigns but the players will all be connected. Each profession will have notorious people. I believe we'll start to see list of names to not trust, whether it's a gatherer that betray their defenders, crafters that keep crafts, fighters that kill on sight everyone. These people will start to make names for themselves, either for the better or worse.


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17 minutes ago, jetah said:

CF may have many campaigns but the players will all be connected. Each profession will have notorious people. I believe we'll start to see list of names to not trust, whether it's a gatherer that betray their defenders, crafters that keep crafts, fighters that kill on sight everyone. These people will start to make names for themselves, either for the better or worse.

Isn't this a reason to not solo and to focus on friends/guilds/alliances? Those situations imply that they are either solos or at least not part of the same force. At least in non-faction based CWs. Guess factions will have typical scammers and what not, but sort of the reason to align with a guild and not work outside no matter the CW type. Being this will be a open world, no safety, loot game, making a bad name is a quick way to end someone's time there. Will be especially true with potential name/character/account/forum connection.

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This topic comes up over and over again because the current system feels very forced the way it segregates people into the 3 roles. The crafting and harvesting systems are so deep that role segregation isn't needed to force player interaction/dependence. 

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I have suggested before the perfect compromise 

 

give everyone 1 Combat skill to train 

and 1 non combat skill to train .

 

that way everyone can pvp but everyone still needs everyone else because you can be a harvester but not a crafter or a leader etc.


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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1 hour ago, blazzen said:

This topic comes up over and over again because the current system feels very forced the way it segregates people into the 3 roles. The crafting and harvesting systems are so deep that role segregation isn't needed to force player interaction/dependence. 

In my opinion, this is the state of the systems. There is such a diversity of specializations of harvesters and crafters that the segmentation is not necessary. At this point it feels like there are a couple good alternatives with the potential to maintain interdependence, generally increase player satisfaction by allowing us to choose how we make up our character, and infuse more value to VIP. The passive training system was first introduced so long ago that so much has changed and I hope ACE iterates on this one soon.

 


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


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