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Eaden

The apple snatchers and other offline mules

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Hey guys,

Here is a thought that I have been having yesterday (and I am sure, is an issue that must have been thought about by ACE a long time ago).

So, we will be having campaigns, during which the more time and seasons pass, the more difficult it will get to gather (and retain) resources.

How will we deal with offline mules?

I mean by that term, any player / alt account, that will join the campaign at its early stages, will get packed of necessary but "light" resources (such as food for example), to then be kept away (offline) until later in the campaign, when these resources will make a big difference in terms of sustenance, either of gear (repair costs) or of players (food, potions, etc).

Any idea? Any system?

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I do not believe there will be offline banks (or any type of account bank like the spirit banks we have now) in the CWs.  There will be the import/export vault that does not allow withdrawal of items from the CW and there will be crafted chests for storage.   To store apples you would need more chests which require more and larger buildings and also may take the spots where crafting benches and factories would also want to be slotted in the building.  Considering that in the dregs we will hopefully have to fully craft the walls just to create semi-safe space to craft the building and then the gear, workstations and chests...  you would be carrying those apples for quite awhile before having a place to store them.  This is all speculation of course.

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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10 minutes ago, Frykka said:

I do not believe there will be offline banks (or any type of account bank like the spirit banks we have now) in the CWs.  There will be the import/export vault that does not allow withdrawal of items from the CW and there will be crafted chests for storage.   To store apples you would need more chests which require more and larger buildings and also may take the spots where crafting benches and factories would also want to be slotted in the building.  Considering that in the dregs we will hopefully have to fully craft the walls just to create semi-safe space to craft the building and then the gear, workstations and chests...  you would be carrying those apples for quite awhile before having a place to store them.  This is all speculation of course.

So I feel like OP's point was "what if, instead of chests that need storage space and buildings to protect them, people loaded their alt accounts up with full inventories of apples so they don't need either of those things in 3 months when winter has come?"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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Just now, goose said:

So I feel like OP's point was "what if, instead of chests that need storage space and buildings to protect them, people loaded their alt accounts up with full inventories of apples so they don't need either of those things in 3 months when winter has come?"

This is how I read it. Food is easily solved if it starts to rot over the campaign, but what about resources? Will they be as easily stacked as they are now? Maybe we'll have a little less inventory space in the future


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1 minute ago, Groovin said:

This is how I read it. Food is easily solved if it starts to rot over the campaign, but what about resources? Will they be as easily stacked as they are now? Maybe we'll have a little less inventory space in the future

That doesn't fix the problem, though. Just increases the advantage held by people with extra accounts. The more precious inventory space is, the more valuable alts become.

Honestly, I feel like the safest way to avoid this problem is to make crafted chests useful enough to disincentivize it. Make it possible, if costly, to craft secure and indestructible chests that can only be accessed by people with permissions. If there's no particular advantage gained by having bank alts, odds are we won't see a bunch of them.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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3 minutes ago, goose said:

That doesn't fix the problem, though. Just increases the advantage held by people with extra accounts. The more precious inventory space is, the more valuable alts become.

Good point. I'm just spit-balling ideas here. Be interesting to see what ACE has in mind for the future, if anything.


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1 minute ago, Groovin said:

Good point. I'm just spit-balling ideas here. Be interesting to see what ACE has in mind for the future, if anything.

Yeah, and nothing wrong with that. Why I also proposed an idea after. No idea if it's viable given server architecture or other concerns, and even if it's viable dunno if it's really the best option. Just my two cents. :P


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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I think having a player limit per faction could help alleviate this, each and every player needs to matter in some way.

Seeing someone write in global today about how they felt special due to their perception training in Harvesting made their Harvesting superior to my own was a good thing, this is the way the game is designed and should be going imo.

Having additional inactive accounts clogging the system would actually hurt your side in this scenario, though it would likely lead to multiple smaller size campaign wars on going at the same time. Which could help shape the world and game story in a different way.

Edited by scornoflife
added 'today'*

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I have a feeling our inventory sizes are going to be much smaller in the full game. We probably just have large inventories right now for testing purposes. Just looking at the harvesting trees and seeing extra inventory space be a skill node makes me think it's going to be much more limited in the full game. 

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3 hours ago, Zybak said:

I have a feeling our inventory sizes are going to be much smaller in the full game. We probably just have large inventories right now for testing purposes. Just looking at the harvesting trees and seeing extra inventory space be a skill node makes me think it's going to be much more limited in the full game. 

to steal an image from @Tinnis from a different thread on Inventory I feel like Zybak's gut feeling here makes sense. this single blob of an Inventory does not match up well with the early interface done up all pretty

2RO6wMu.jpg

having a broken up, specific to X space format would make it easier for the team to bring in the Inventory Bonus Slots in a way that the player would visually feel has impact. right now adding a row to our current blob would be useful but have little visual impact.

4ZXHdNP.png


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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Here is my idea to completely counter offline alt mules: inventory decay while offline.

Narrative:

Quote

"each vessel dissolve to nothingness if not inhabited by its crow."

Meaning, if you get offline too long without being active in the campaign, your inventory items start vanishing randomly (resources) and / or start losing durability until they are destroyed (gear).

Add some rules to take into account players connecting their alt mules 10 sec every day to prevent this decay from happening, and you should be good.

As for the very casual players who connect one hour a week, well, they won't probably have such alts anyway. :)

Edited by Eaden

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I'm not sure why we will only see chests and not actual banks like in SB; they have already mentioned having localized banks.  Another route they could go is like in EvE where players had "bank" space in stations, that even when the station was taken over by another corp, a player could access their bank (if they were able to dock).  I am hoping that local banks (not chests) make it into the game for personal assets, and those assets will be protected from looting; while guild assets which are secured in a guild bank are able to be looted.  The two banks would be varied in size, guild being bigger.  Very similar mechanic to SB, where you had a church where you could put a banker, but the guild goods were stored in a different building altogether.

Then I'm also hoping that the food mechanic is going to be altered so we actually have a purpose for farming.  Why even have farming and cooking if different food won't drastically give you different food buffs, or different food fulfillment.  Right now food fills you up to easily, so along with slowing down how much an apple gives (it should be closer to 10 apples per 1 chicken ticker) they also need to slow down how fast you lose food.

All of that is to say, that with farming, I think we will have different mechanics that make alt food storage a moot point.

@anhrezcf That screen shot also shows smaller metal bars.  If bars are only 1 slot and not 2, then that is a huge impact to inventory size.  Also remember that some accounts received an extra 20 slots for banking, so some of the early accounts will have more room than the general populace anyways.  Why is it that the mock-ups for the inventory/crafting look so much better.


lUvvzPy.png

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6 hours ago, scornoflife said:

I think having a player limit per faction could help alleviate this, each and every player needs to matter in some way.

Seeing someone write in global today about how they felt special due to their perception training in Harvesting made their Harvesting superior to my own was a good thing, this is the way the game is designed and should be going imo.

Having additional inactive accounts clogging the system would actually hurt your side in this scenario, though it would likely lead to multiple smaller size campaign wars on going at the same time. Which could help shape the world and game story in a different way.

All true. All important.

Only a few of the nefarious issues that will arise from the massive proliferation of alt accounts in Crowfall, in my opinion.

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4 hours ago, Zybak said:

I have a feeling our inventory sizes are going to be much smaller in the full game. We probably just have large inventories right now for testing purposes. Just looking at the harvesting trees and seeing extra inventory space be a skill node makes me think it's going to be much more limited in the full game. 

Which is one reason having 10+ alt accounts is a massive advantage.

Edited by coolwaters

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I see alt accounts being extremely prevalent in this game.  The skill system almost necessitates a harvest and crafting alt account if you want to be somewhat self reliant.  I think everyone needs to get used to the idea that a very large percentage of the population will have 2-3 accounts.  If most people are running multiple accounts, do we need to put in place systems to balance that?

Edited by Thubub

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9 minutes ago, Thubub said:

I see alt accounts being extremely prevalent in this game.  The skill system almost necessitates a harvest and crafting alt account if you want to be somewhat self reliant.  I think everyone needs to get used to the idea that a very large percentage of the population will have 2-3 accounts.  If most people are running multiple accounts, do we need to put in place systems to balance that?

FWIW, I have two alt accounts.

I did not get these in order to be "self reliant".  With multiple types or ore, wood, stone, plus a couple dozen different crafting disciplines, plus all the PVP stuff this would be completely insane.  

I entered Crowfall with the intent of being a primary crafter.  Indeed, this is still my plan.  However, strangely enough I found that punching rocks is vaguely therapeutic.  And the PVP aspects of things is fun as well.  I figured that it was worth an extra couple accounts so I could be more effective when I was engaging in these activities.

 

 

 


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"The cinnabar is a lie"

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A small bank present in strongholds would solve this. I think that the owner of the stronghold should set the rules, do you want to make your stronghold a public hotspot? A public bank is the way to go. If the stronghold change owners (through siege) we could lose our stored stuff so players now have another reason to protect that place (or abandon it before it happens).

Banks could even require some payment so having banks could be profitable for the owners.

It is easier to go to a bank than run Alts. The Devs should think about it.

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1 hour ago, narsille said:

FWIW, I have two alt accounts.

I did not get these in order to be "self reliant".

Doesn't matter why really.  The game encourages alts by its design.  If you want to craft at all, you need at least a harvester alt.  Most will have three accounts, pvp. crafter, and harvester. 

If you want to pvp exclusively, that is the only reason you would only have one account.  Even then it makes sense to have a second account for harvesting just to make it easier to survive (food and what-not).  The only way a pvper will be able to sustain themselves without an alt is pretty harcore pking.  So if you are support, you will need to be in a very active group.

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You can train multiple things though. I have on Srathor. It just takes longer. The alts are for the short term, which tells me the skills system is very poorly thought out. 

Gatherers should be getting some combat stuff trained that would help them gather. You know stuff rolled into the combat nodes, like + run speed, or stamina,  or overall crit training that would stack with gathering crit. Combat players should be wanting some gathering skills like + stamina, or hit point buffs, or special drops for buffs and things. Learning how to use a stone hammer should help when swinging a warhammer. Moving silently through forests or plains can help a war scout. 

The early basic stuff should be trained very quickly. Like Minutes and hours at first. Make the last 20% for basics take a day tops. For the basics of combat, crafting and gathering/exploration. And the basics skills need to influence the novice, journeyman, expert, and master levels too. 

After all a good foundation is important. 

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