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Character death in a campaign


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ACE has said that nothing is set in stone for the rulesets - they can try different variations on things like import/export, looting, decay, bane mechanics, time frames, even racial or power-based limitations and see what works the best.

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I think full loot would scare people away. I myself would try to avoid CW that implemented that, it is just not worth (for me) getting a new set of gear everyday (because we will die in a day to day b

12. WHAT HAPPENS WHEN I DIE IN A CAMPAIGN? https://crowfall.com/en/faq/crowsandvessels/#28 The crow leaves the vessel and can’t do much (or see much) until they find a new vessel to possess.

I also think that losing all items that are not equipped and taking a durability hit on items that are equipped ( like in Shadowbane)  is the way to go forward. I believe  losing ALL items would be to

On 20.6.2017 at 2:58 PM, VIKINGNAIL said:

Pretty sure they are moving away from vessel loot, which is a shame, since the dregs should be vessel loot and not soft on loot rules.

didnt they say that it would depend on campaign ruleset? with some campaigns having full loot enabled (even body loot)

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6 hours ago, elvo said:

didnt they say that it would depend on campaign ruleset? with some campaigns having full loot enabled (even body loot)

Last I heard they seem to be moving away from vessel loot completely.  We will see though. 

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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12 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Last I heard they seem to be moving away from vessel loot completely.  We will see though. 

I think that would be sad. It would be awesome to be able to kill a legendary vessel and be able to use it at least a little bit, instead of actually destroying the vessel and only being able to harvest an arm or leg. Also, it would give players the urge for revenge, say if their vessel was captured.

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There is also the possibility of a rule-set that gives a % chance to lose one or more pieces of equipped gear.  E.g.  10% roll on each piece of equipment you're wearing when you die to drop into your inventory and be lootable.  It won't be so punishing that it turns people off, but it will heighten the risk factor somewhat.

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On 6/25/2017 at 11:57 PM, ThaddisSabbah said:

I think that would be sad. It would be awesome to be able to kill a legendary vessel and be able to use it at least a little bit, instead of actually destroying the vessel and only being able to harvest an arm or leg. Also, it would give players the urge for revenge, say if their vessel was captured.

Sounds great in theory, until YOU lose a legendary vessel you spent months to acquire because the game had a bad lag spike and you got taken out by a technical problem.

Everyone loves to imagine how it will be when they crush, without considering how they will feel when they are crushed.

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Sounds great in theory, until YOU lose a legendary vessel you spent months to acquire because the game had a bad lag spike and you got taken out by a technical problem.

Everyone loves to imagine how it will be when they crush, without considering how they will feel when they are crushed.

@KrakkenSmacken

Doesn't just sound great in theory, it was originally the loot system they imagined for the Dregs campaign. They had a vision of it.

I'm not saying that should be the combat system for the entirety of Crowfall, not every campaign should be a total "survival of the fittest", but isn't that was PvP is? Hell, most EK's wont have PvP if I think the game is going where I think it's going.

When I bought into the game, I assumed the worst, that there would be people who want to kill me for a piece of gear I had, or for sport, or perhaps for bragging rights-- whether or not i consented, and that excites me. The same is true for me, why be the victim when I can make victims?

Also, I embrace the fact that I can and probably will be owned by other players. I played Eve Online, probably the most hard-core, steepest learning curve MMO since 2003, and lost several shiny ships-- ships that didn't return to my hands, because they were completely obliterated by more prepared and more experienced players. I even had the pleasure of experiencing a ship being stolen from me because I ejected instead of self-destructing my ship. I learned after several deaths how to not lose my expensive ships (I even had ships worth $200 in game assets that were destroyed). Don't get me wrong, I was upset, but it also wasn't rl money, it was time I spent grinding away those items, and the in game money required to field such items. The number one rule in Eve is "Don't fly what you don't want to risk losing," and that has always been my mantra, it reminds me it was my fault to die since I made myself vulnerable in the world. I consented when I signed up to play that game. And guess what? I love it, I still feel the adrenaline rush in PvP because I know if i die in that game, I am losing what I have.

Edit: This isn't a play-nice game, it's a PvP focused, SURVIVAL, "Throne War" sim. I think Game of Thrones when I hear that, and when I think of Game of Thrones, i think of tears and blood.

Maybe this game isn't for you?

Edited by ThaddisSabbah
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4 minutes ago, ThaddisSabbah said:

@KrakkenSmacken

Doesn't just sound great in theory, it was originally the loot system they imagined for the Dregs campaign. They had a vision of it.

I'm not saying that should be the combat system for the entirety of Crowfall, not every campaign should be a total "survival of the fittest", but isn't that was PvP is? Hell, most EK's wont have PvP if I think the game is going where I think it's going.

When I bought into the game, I assumed the worst, that there would be people who want to kill me for a piece of gear I had, or for sport, or perhaps for bragging rights-- whether or not i consented, and that excites me. The same is true for me, why be the victim when I can make victims?

Also, I embrace the fact that I can and probably will be owned by other players. I played Eve Online, probably the most hard-core, steepest learning curve MMO since 2003, and lost several shiny ships-- ships that didn't return to my hands, because they were completely obliterated by more prepared and more experienced players. I even had the pleasure of experiencing a ship being stolen from me because I ejected instead of self-destructing my ship. I learned after several deaths how to not lose my expensive ships (I even had ships worth $200 in game assets that were destroyed). Don't get me wrong, I was upset, but it also wasn't rl money, it was time I spent grinding away those items, and the in game money required to field such items. The number one rule in Eve is "Don't fly what you don't want to risk losing," and that has always been my mantra, it reminds me it was my fault to die since I made myself vulnerable in the world. I consented when I signed up to play that game. And guess what? I love it, I still feel the adrenaline rush in PvP because I know if i die in that game, I am losing what I have.

 

In some worlds losing a quality vessel once is going mean losing the world, because odds are all those in your group will lose theirs at the same time. With too much of a slippery slope, there just will be no way to recover in a single world from that kind of loss.

I suspect those rules won't be as popular, or even popular enough to support itself, but we will see.

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3 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

In some worlds losing a quality vessel once is going mean losing the world, because odds are all those in your group will lose theirs at the same time. With too much of a slippery slope, there just will be no way to recover in a single world from that kind of loss.

I suspect those rules won't be as popular, or even popular enough to support itself, but we will see.

In addition to this....for me it's about being able to play as I want to with my character.  EvE has harsh loot rules, and it's fine for that game, because your character training never loses anything due to another player killing you.  (To be transparent, you can lose SP if you are dumb enough not to insure your clone to the proper training grade; but that is a lack on the players part not a PvP aspect loss.)  I fly my ship around, and have equipment on my ship, but my character skills or build is never in jeopardy.

If they allow vessel looting in CF, then our actual builds, not just equipment will be at jeopardy during PvP.  Most players will not find that fun.  Personally I never found Darkfall fun, for its loot mechanics (a lot of other aspects were fun), but I was completely ok with how Shadowbane had full inventory loot.

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31 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

In some worlds losing a quality vessel once is going mean losing the world, because odds are all those in your group will lose theirs at the same time. With too much of a slippery slope, there just will be no way to recover in a single world from that kind of loss.

I suspect those rules won't be as popular, or even popular enough to support itself, but we will see.

Honestly, it's all hypothetical. Once again, the devs have said, greater risk, greater reward-- I think players are willing to make sacrifices at a chance for some shiny vessels or resources for gear.

EDIT: I TOTALLY forgot about the CW's that would prevent you from participating again if you died. That's actually quite intimidating. But I am sure there is something even more valuable for people who want to do that.

18 minutes ago, Teufel said:

In addition to this....for me it's about being able to play as I want to with my character.  EvE has harsh loot rules, and it's fine for that game, because your character training never loses anything due to another player killing you.  (To be transparent, you can lose SP if you are dumb enough not to insure your clone to the proper training grade; but that is a lack on the players part not a PvP aspect loss.)  I fly my ship around, and have equipment on my ship, but my character skills or build is never in jeopardy.

If they allow vessel looting in CF, then our actual builds, not just equipment will be at jeopardy during PvP.  Most players will not find that fun.  Personally I never found Darkfall fun, for its loot mechanics (a lot of other aspects were fun), but I was completely ok with how Shadowbane had full inventory loot.

Do you mean actual skill tree time being lost? or are you talking about the vessel attributes for a particular vessel?
Edit: I am just confused on what you mean when you say 'builds'.

Edited by ThaddisSabbah
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51 minutes ago, ThaddisSabbah said:

Do you mean actual skill tree time being lost? or are you talking about the vessel attributes for a particular vessel?
Edit: I am just confused on what you mean when you say 'builds'.

I'm thinking more in terms of the disciplines.  Playing Shadowbane, makes me think of disciplines as not just a piece of equipment, but as a integral part of the build.  I personally would hate to lose a part of "me" if vessel looting occurred.  So while it's not the vessel attributes, it's the skills or powers associated with the discs.

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1 minute ago, Teufel said:

I'm thinking more in terms of the disciplines.  Playing Shadowbane, makes me think of disciplines as not just a piece of equipment, but as a integral part of the build.  I personally would hate to lose a part of "me" if vessel looting occurred.  So while it's not the vessel attributes, it's the skills or powers associated with the discs.

This.  

If you read between the lines and statements, disciplines are going to be dependent on getting the right thrall soul, some of which "may not even appear in your campaign".

Losing a one off unique item that has been built into the core of you character model for a world, would be a sting most will simply not tolerate. 

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8 minutes ago, Teufel said:

I'm thinking more in terms of the disciplines.  Playing Shadowbane, makes me think of disciplines as not just a piece of equipment, but as a integral part of the build.  I personally would hate to lose a part of "me" if vessel looting occurred.  So while it's not the vessel attributes, it's the skills or powers associated with the discs.

We don't know how difficult it will be to get certain discipline runes. I know certain disciplines play an integral role to even the abilities a player will have, which is understandable if a discipline could be perma-lost. Then again, they said everything in the game will be consumable. I think the runecrafters are going to be one of the most valued crafting professions personally, not just for making tools for harvesters, but for the builds of ALL vessels.

Ultimately, they can add any campaign with any difficulty setting, and it's up to the players to voluntarily join them. Each campaign will probably have rule descriptions for import/export, so some people may not even be able to bring in their best builds, because import rules aren't implemented, but export rules are.

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This might an easy way for Artcraft to piss off a lot of players. Luckily with campaign rules how loot is lost and recovered can change between different bands. It's important to keep things simple though. Losing a vessel is going to suck. When and how we associate loss can depend on the campaign but really it should follow some rules. This is just to keep a situation where you're in a dog fight and your sword breaks. Fights over, fun is ruined for everyone. This will be confusing, frustrating, and really it just can't happen.

Let's keep death as the ultimate ending for most equipment. (Probably not harvesting, although it breaks too often.) You die, release, and that is the kill switch(no pun intended) for low durability equipment. Yes, this includes your vessel and it's disciplines. How much durability is lost on death can totally depend on the campaign.

In theory you could keep a vessel and equipment at 1 remaining durability, forever. You could keep that equipment as long as you don't die with it.

 

When it comes to recovering loot from a death, it sticking with your corpse has to happen. Think of how easy it could be to mule items if your could just die and revive a long, or even safe distance away. Your vessel and it's equipped items should be retrievable from the temple, while dropping everything else. Now the campaign rules can change exactly how, and even who can recover off your pretty corpse.

What do I mean by how? It's totally possible some of that loot is damaged and not recoverable. Your would be plunderer can only profit so much. Obviously you and he should of done a better job of handling those goods. Your vessel isn't apart of the loot, but those hours of materials you were hauling, as far as you are concerned. It's gone.

This brings me to my next point, what if a campaign simply doesn't allow your enemy to profit from your death. This would be a higher band where spys on different factions could easily have two characters on both sides. Disabling an enemy or even an ally from looting your corpse might be idle here.

This should make things clear. You will eventually lose gear, and death will make an example.

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3 hours ago, ThaddisSabbah said:

@KrakkenSmacken

Doesn't just sound great in theory, it was originally the loot system they imagined for the Dregs campaign. They had a vision of it.

I'm not saying that should be the combat system for the entirety of Crowfall, not every campaign should be a total "survival of the fittest", but isn't that was PvP is? Hell, most EK's wont have PvP if I think the game is going where I think it's going.

When I bought into the game, I assumed the worst, that there would be people who want to kill me for a piece of gear I had, or for sport, or perhaps for bragging rights-- whether or not i consented, and that excites me. The same is true for me, why be the victim when I can make victims?

Also, I embrace the fact that I can and probably will be owned by other players. I played Eve Online, probably the most hard-core, steepest learning curve MMO since 2003, and lost several shiny ships-- ships that didn't return to my hands, because they were completely obliterated by more prepared and more experienced players. I even had the pleasure of experiencing a ship being stolen from me because I ejected instead of self-destructing my ship. I learned after several deaths how to not lose my expensive ships (I even had ships worth $200 in game assets that were destroyed). Don't get me wrong, I was upset, but it also wasn't rl money, it was time I spent grinding away those items, and the in game money required to field such items. The number one rule in Eve is "Don't fly what you don't want to risk losing," and that has always been my mantra, it reminds me it was my fault to die since I made myself vulnerable in the world. I consented when I signed up to play that game. And guess what? I love it, I still feel the adrenaline rush in PvP because I know if i die in that game, I am losing what I have.

Edit: This isn't a play-nice game, it's a PvP focused, SURVIVAL, "Throne War" sim. I think Game of Thrones when I hear that, and when I think of Game of Thrones, i think of tears and blood.

Maybe this game isn't for you?

^ This guy fuks. It is pretty obvious what we signed up for when we purchased. Glad everyone wants to dial it back now.

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33 minutes ago, ClockworkOrange said:

^ This guy fuks. It is pretty obvious what we signed up for when we purchased. Glad everyone wants to dial it back now.

It's not even the players that went to dial it back, it's the developers realizing that "if we do this, we're going to lose customers". Everyone talks about losing items and such like it's no problemo, but they don't realize all the RL time associated with obtaining them. People used to bust ass out of shadowbane, dfo, etc when they got wrecked. Imagine how fast they leave when they lose their character that took hours if not weeks or longer to build and all associated items. That would be game over for most right there.

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5 hours ago, ThaddisSabbah said:

Honestly, it's all hypothetical. Once again, the devs have said, greater risk, greater reward-- I think players are willing to make sacrifices at a chance for some shiny vessels or resources for gear.

EDIT: I TOTALLY forgot about the CW's that would prevent you from participating again if you died. That's actually quite intimidating. But I am sure there is something even more valuable for people who want to do that.

Do you mean actual skill tree time being lost? or are you talking about the vessel attributes for a particular vessel?
Edit: I am just confused on what you mean when you say 'builds'.

Just curious, but have you seen the first legendary bit of kit? Not exactly spectacular.

Here is the problem, there are several major things in the core vision that fight against each other that make the hardest of the hard campaign worlds something I think people just frankly won't play.

  • Higher Risk, Higher Reward
  • Shallow Power Curve
  • Long construction times. (Blair has talked about a single sword taking days).

With a shallow power curve, your "Greater Reward" just can't possibly be that great, because of the limiting factor shallow curve creates.  When blue and purple, which you can get from Tier 5 nodes, is only marginally worse, and import rules prevent you from bringing in enough slightly higher quality gear to matter, I just don't think the dregs and the "rewards" would have enough draw to them if there was full loot that included vessels.

I just don't think that a world with that rule set would be popular enough to make it an interesting fight is all. One side/guild would get ahead, press their advantage, and keep the rest in default white until they won the world. That or everyone will just run around in temple white because risking that kind of time is pointless, again because of the shallow power curve.

I have said several times, I would like to see it tried, just don't be surprised if you find yourself king of an empty hill in a world like that.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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17 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Here is the problem, there are several major things in the core vision that fight against each other...

Yes--shallow power curve vs extensive crafting definitely creates some dissonance.   Also, the whole idea of risk v. reward in relation to export/import rules and, especially, bands like the Dregs.  I am confident that ACE can figure it out, but I will be interested to see how they address some of these conflicts.  

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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44 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Just curious, but have you seen the first legendary bit of kit? Not exactly spectacular.

Here is the problem, there are several major things in the core vision that fight against each other that make the hardest of the hard campaign worlds something I think people just frankly won't play.

  • Higher Risk, Higher Reward
  • Shallow Power Curve
  • Long construction times. (Blair has talked about a single sword taking days).

Yeah I have, I thought it was lacking-- but considering it is the first legendary item, the fact that no one knows the difference on the power scale when coming to items that are crafted, and that no one can play a campaign world with such difficult settings in the first place, there should be some things tested before we completely disregard them. Hell, they haven't figured out what a good quality over speed gap between crafting certain items will be yet. We don't know if those are the final numbers, and we don't know how profitable it will be to create an item. Of course the numbers are going to start small, but I am sure they will find a beautiful balance between a common, uncommon, rare, epic and legendary item. This is why things get nerfed and buffed in MMO's, when the players start complaining.

Another note:

It almost seems like people who are complaining about certain CW's being too difficult are being turned off to a sign that says "If you enter, and if you die, sorry not sorry," when they're at a theme park with many other options besides that. There are roller coasters that are easy, and there are roller coasters that might make you throw up. If you don't trust yourself to not throw up if you ride the hard one, DONT RIDE IT. Why should you tell the manager of the park "Nah, this one should be shut down because it's too scary" when they're making money off of the thrill-seekers? If anything, the competition will be more severe if nobody is brave enough besides the PvP junkies.

Are you saying it's a waste of development time to invest in severe campaign worlds?

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