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PaleOne

Why siege games are the best...

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a Story from a Long time ago in a place far far away.

 

On Treachery our Allies KGB had their city Sanctuary taken over by a zerg of Covenant of Swords(CoS)

They had a huge number of archers and casters manning the walls, and held the city for over an hour, camping their tree and killing anyone who logged in.

My Guild, Redemption was contacted and we began to assemble a force to attempt to throw them out of their city.

 

We sent out some messages and assembled a few guilds. We sent our scouts to the Sanctuary to determine the enemies numbers and position.

 

We made a push on city gates only to be repelled. We regrouped and I came up with a plan.

I gathered a rag tag group of classes that were flight enabled. Channellers, Warlocks, Furies and Aracoix. We grouped up, there were 10 of us.

I directed our ground forces to once again rush the city gates, while our small group flew to a tower to the left corner of the city walls.

Upon landing with my Healer channeler ,Doc Holiday, I immediately summoned a Dwarf Priest to the top of the wall with us to keep us alive.

We then proceeded to move down the wall towards the gates destroying all the CoS in front of us who were distracted by the 80 plus ground forces moving on the gate.

Once we routed the ranged classes on the walls the melee forces made to the interior of the city and wiped the rest of the occupiers.

 

We honestly felt like the Scots in Braveheart after winning their first battle against the English )

 

I have never felt that way playing instanced pvp in Wow or any other game.

 


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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22 minutes ago, PaleOne said:

a Story from a Long time ago in a place far far away.

 

On Treachery our Allies KGB had their city Sanctuary taken over by a zerg of Covenant of Swords(CoS)

They had a huge number of archers and casters manning the walls, and held the city for over an hour, camping their tree and killing anyone who logged in.

My Guild, Redemption was contacted and we began to assemble a force to attempt to throw them out of their city.

 

We sent out some messages and assembled a few guilds. We sent our scouts to the Sanctuary to determine the enemies numbers and position.

 

We made a push on city gates only to be repelled. We regrouped and I came up with a plan.

I gathered a rag tag group of classes that were flight enabled. Channellers, Warlocks, Furies and Aracoix. We grouped up, there were 10 of us.

I directed our ground forces to once again rush the city gates, while our small group flew to a tower to the left corner of the city walls.

Upon landing with my Healer channeler ,Doc Holiday, I immediately summoned a Dwarf Priest to the top of the wall with us to keep us alive.

We then proceeded to move down the wall towards the gates destroying all the CoS in front of us who were distracted by the 80 plus ground forces moving on the gate.

Once we routed the ranged classes on the walls the melee forces made to the interior of the city and wiped the rest of the occupiers.

 

We honestly felt like the Scots in Braveheart after winning their first battle against the English )

 

I have never felt that way playing instanced pvp in Wow or any other game.

 

This tends to happen with earlier mmos, for me it was EQ1 pvp servers and the huge fights that broke out from time to time over zone control at certain times.  It's something you get desensitized to, especially if you are used to success in pvp games. 

It's not really easy to recreate that sensation, but games can do it by focusing on immersive elements and giving meaning to accomplishments.  The question is whether CF can do this when the slate gets reset and a lot of the things in the game seem temporary or quickly changeable. 

I think a big problem games suffer now, that players don't even realize impacts their experience, is the desire to obsess over and gather mountains of hard data and metrics and regurgitate whatever is determined to be mathematically most efficient. 

Some people do find this fun, but I think overall it leaves a smaller impression.  Can you really get your adrenaline pumping from copying spreadsheets? 

Early online gaming involved more figuring stuff out and intuitive play.  Now it's just fotm copypasta. 

Hopefully CF can recapture some of that magic, but it's a constant battle against people suggesting ideas that take a lot of the thinking out of gameplay in favor of convenience.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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We had many many siege victories and all of them were much more important than any pvp action in EQ1( I played on Rallos and Vallon Zek as well as the blubie server Solusek Ro) ( Although EQ pvp meant more when we could loot gear :) )

Because the assets and terrotory we fought over were owned assets that could be lost.

 

the big  challenge for Crowfall is to get the same emotional attachment to temporary worlds.  I'm not sure about if that is acheivable.


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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29 minutes ago, PaleOne said:

We had many many siege victories and all of them were much more important than any pvp action in EQ1( I played on Rallos and Vallon Zek as well as the blubie server Solusek Ro) ( Although EQ pvp meant more when we could loot gear :) )

Because the assets and terrotory we fought over were owned assets that could be lost.

 

the big  challenge for Crowfall is to get the same emotional attachment to temporary worlds.  I'm not sure about if that is acheivable.

I don't think "temporary" is going to be any kind of problem.  Plenty of phone games with a similar temporary world model are of the most addictive kind. I know, I was nose deep in Valor for several months, in many different "worlds".  

It's not the permanence, it's the team play and victory/defeat that add meaning, not how long your assets last.

Do you still happen to own any Rallos or Vallon Zek assets? 

Everything is temporary. 

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I think the 'medium length' combined with the temporary nature of the worlds makes the game far more enticing to a wider audience as the system reinforces mercurial attachment to your accomplishments and discourages hunker down stagnation by having those campaign victory conditions in the first place. It also makes it easier for players to hop in and out without getting totally left behind, which will do a lot to improve general retention over time.

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Just now, Duffy said:

I think the 'medium length' combined with the temporary nature of the worlds makes the game far more enticing to a wider audience as the system reinforces mercurial attachment to your accomplishments and discourages hunker down stagnation by having those campaign victory conditions in the first place. It also makes it easier for players to hop in and out without getting totally left behind, which will do a lot to improve general retention over time.

There has been a rather large resurgence on board games the last couple of years.  

It isn't because the sessions have any sort of permanence.  If the play is fun and engaging, permanence is not necessary, and ACE knows this. Just look at the EK FAQ.

Quote

We fully expect that some players will prefer to spend the vast majority of their time participating in the campaign worlds, and we intend to let them do so without maintaining a kingdom. Other players (those who want to socialize, and participate in the economy game) may spend most of their time in the Eternal Kingdoms.

As they say: Different strokes for different folks.

There is no "best", only "best for me".

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I still can't really understand what economy can exist outside of CW's if import is as limited as has been implied.  Maybe there will be a ton of costume & roleplay type stuff, idk.

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7 minutes ago, canvox said:

I still can't really understand what economy can exist outside of CW's if import is as limited as has been implied.

Import rules can vary. Some campaigns may have relatively generous Import rules. So long as there are some campaigns that allow Imports a lot of people will want the best stuff to import. The EK economy will be a way to get the best stuff for that.

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14 minutes ago, canvox said:

I still can't really understand what economy can exist outside of CW's if import is as limited as has been implied.  Maybe there will be a ton of costume & roleplay type stuff, idk.

Well it will be an issue, but I think I have a possible solution for the outer bands.

Track the total team resources imported by each team, and have a window of range that keeps the numbers within reason on the side level.

If Chaos imports 10,000 ore, Balance and Order can now import an additional 10,000 ore. 

Then if one team got too far ahead of the others in imports, their imports would close until the other teams caught up.

That would be a way to balance the goal of 

Quote

If everyone is allowed to bring the same number of assets into a Campaign (i.e. if we can ALL bring in a few tanks) then the starting condition is still balanced.

could be met.

But yea, a system where imports only happen at the beginning, and exports at the end, would not provide much of an EK economy.

I think if ACE starts that way, they are very quickly going to realize it's a problem as human nature takes over and does exactly what you would expect, ignore the irrelevant to CW's EK's.

Just like players ignored crafting at the start of big world until stripped of basic weapons.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Here's roughly what I'm imagining:

Everything to do with the Eternal Kingdom can be crafted, ergo to do anything in the EK will require resources. Resources will flow out of the Campaign Worlds (otherwise winning means nothing) and will be used to improve EKs. Aside from cosmetics this also means functionality, particularly via thralls and relics. This allows a secondary (or maybe primary market) to exist soley in the EKs, crafters could theoretical never leave the EKs and produce EK products along with items more useful for use in CWs. I would then expect these crafters to purchase their resources for EK centric activity from CW focused folks by making items desired for CW use (not literal bartering but in principal effort is be traded around), which implies that while imports may not be huge amounts of resources or materials, it will be enough that it's worth spending some time accumulating a nice set of gear and vessels (or a few) to give you a leg up at the start of the campaign. This is on top of whatever perks/bonuses trophies and relics will also provide. This is of course all on top of crafters consuming the resources to support specific campaign efforts within a CW.

Specific campaign rules will mess with these limits and what not, but overall I think that's roughly what is going to happen. I think it gets glossed over a lot, but it's super important that they get the general feedback loop between the EKs and CWs right. If it's too low it devalues winning and EKs themselves, if it's too high it devalues the temporary nature of campaigns and the soft resets.

Edited by Duffy

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30 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I don't think "temporary" is going to be any kind of problem.  Plenty of phone games with a similar temporary world model are of the most addictive kind. I know, I was nose deep in Valor for several months, in many different "worlds".  

It's not the permanence, it's the team play and victory/defeat that add meaning, not how long your assets last.

Do you still happen to own any Rallos or Vallon Zek assets? 

Everything is temporary. 

I don't think temporary CW are a problem.  However, permanence is definitely part of meaning, especially when you consider progression/development, impact and long term engagement.   


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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Just now, Regulus said:

I don't think temporary CW are a problem.  However, permanence is definitely part of meaning, especially when you consider progression/development, impact and long term engagement.   

I think that's what EK's are for.  

I suspect that winning teams will pull more than just the most resources out. Things like trophies and relics proclaiming their accomplishments, that they can show off in their EK.

 

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2 hours ago, PaleOne said:

 

Upon landing with my Healer channeler ,Doc Holiday, I immediately summoned a Dwarf Priest to the top of the wall with us to keep us alive.

We honestly felt like the Scots in Braveheart after winning their first battle against the English )

 

Healer Channys were awesome. Fire from their eyes, and bolts of lightning from their arse.

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Yes meaningful pvp and chaotic battles is exactly this topic @PaleOne created. :) Because that`s the magic of an open sandbox PvP world - u go out play with friends & guild m8`s - no scrips and no quest givers who will decide your game content. so why not go out to ambush our pvp friends - a hostile guild who is close to a juicy iron mine - and some scouts spotted a slow moving cart about 1 hour ago and it should be good loot for an ambush.

 

9 hours ago, Yoink said:

Healer Channys were awesome. Fire from their eyes, and bolts of lightning from their arse.

I`m excited to see what ACE can do with the Frostweavers - they might be our answer to the glass cannons and mage channeler from the old SB days! :) 

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