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Gagzer

A question for the campaigns and game as a whole

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Hi, I was trying to convince my friend to get Crowfall when he had brought up a good point. He said that, "If there is no way to stop clans from gaining more and more players, no matter what they say that will just become another Uncle Bob from the video." What he was trying to say is that the video explaining Crowfall talked about someone becoming so big that they will dominate every game so how come this can't happen in Crowfall with a clan of a large amount of players steam rolling every campaign that comes out?

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10 minutes ago, Gagzer said:

Hi, I was trying to convince my friend to get Crowfall when he had brought up a good point. He said that, "If there is no way to stop clans from gaining more and more players, no matter what they say that will just become another Uncle Bob from the video." What he was trying to say is that the video explaining Crowfall talked about someone becoming so big that they will dominate every game so how come this can't happen in Crowfall with a clan of a large amount of players steam rolling every campaign that comes out?

I guess that just leaves you, buddy.  More than likely, you would see one guild tag with a bunch of subguilds playing in the different campaigns.  Large guilds means plenty of inner guild politics.  Make a spy and foment rebellion.  You want to key in on subjects like ... fair distribution of loot, more equality and transparency. 

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I think mechanics that make it difficult to share the spoils of victory in an egalitarian way would help. Infighting over who gets the rewards is a great way to split apart a zerg. Mechanics that make it easy to share rewards in a fair way promote zergs.


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Here's the problem with becoming a spy and making a rebellion, most MMO's don't go in depth on creating platforms for these to start, it's just very unpractical. I don't care too much about equality but it would be a given that 5 very skilled players shouldn't be stomped out by 20 unskilled guild players in every campaign just for the reason that they have more players. The video talks about a reset but even with a reset in campaigns wouldn't the same stuff happen again with the same guild?

Edited by Gagzer

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That is a good point Jah but I'm also thinking that it could be managed by an organized guild in a way so that there wouldn't be too much fighting.

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18 minutes ago, Gagzer said:

Hi, I was trying to convince my friend to get Crowfall when he had brought up a good point. He said that, "If there is no way to stop clans from gaining more and more players, no matter what they say that will just become another Uncle Bob from the video." What he was trying to say is that the video explaining Crowfall talked about someone becoming so big that they will dominate every game so how come this can't happen in Crowfall with a clan of a large amount of players steam rolling every campaign that comes out?

There will always be larger more powerful guilds in any mmo. Just a couple of ways around them are one, you'll be able to have alliances, or sub guilds that can band together. Two, there will be many different campaigns, so with a little intel, you could avoid running in to them. Its a sand-box style pvp game, use your imagination! 

3 minutes ago, zolaz said:

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Gagzer said:

Here's the problem with becoming a spy and making a rebellion, most MMO's don't go in depth on creating platforms for these to start, it's just very unpractical. I don't care too much about equality but it would be a given that 5 very skilled players shouldn't stomped out by 20 unskilled guild players in every campaign just for the reason that they managed to pull ahead and gain more players. The video talks about a reset but even with a reset in campaigns wouldn't the same stuff happen again with the same guild?

You're assuming that there will only ever be one campaign. 

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But here's the thing, because the game has such a large player base, wouldn't it be viable for a mega-guild to just create large sub guilds to go across every campaign?

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The best way to stop zergs is to have a high skill-ceiling, add things like full friendly fire in the the dregs where the best mats are, harsh loot rules etc. 

We also don't know how food and warmth and all of that will end up being, it could become logistically more punishing the larger your army is for whatever reason they decide. 

If you can create a zerg guild that dominates in a high skill-ceiling game then you deserve to win.  Right now crowfall is not that though.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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The reason that Crowfall isn't that is because it's an early alpha. Your other point about deserving to win the game if you can create such a large guild is not true, it goes against what the devs were talking about in the video about Uncle Bob becoming so powerful that he's constantly winning. It shouldn't be about a portion of people wanting to have fun, it should be about every player getting the best experience possible, not just getting stomped because they refuse to join a mainstream guild.

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31 minutes ago, Gagzer said:

Hi, I was trying to convince my friend to get Crowfall when he had brought up a good point. He said that, "If there is no way to stop clans from gaining more and more players, no matter what they say that will just become another Uncle Bob from the video." What he was trying to say is that the video explaining Crowfall talked about someone becoming so big that they will dominate every game so how come this can't happen in Crowfall with a clan of a large amount of players steam rolling every campaign that comes out?

Speculation here, but because they plan on closing campaigns when they are won. 

That won't happen immediately, there will have to be a delay to settle the matter finally. There is nothing in the rules that says players will be able to enter every campaign, so to curtail that sort of zerg behavior, a simple limit by account on how many worlds can be entered at at time would basically make those guilds stuck until the world ends, if they wanted any rewards.

This means that once that super guild is spotted in a world, players would be likely to abandon it and leave it to them, while they move onto a different campaign. By the time super guild shows up in this world because they had to wait to win the previous one, other guilds will be established with buildings and territories, making the superior numbers less meaningful.

Eventually many players in super guilds will get tired of entering empty worlds with no challenge, and internal strife in the guild will cause them to fragment, or reduce in numbers.

All of the above is assuming that smaller guilds won't simply band together and put the zerg guild to the sword at every opportunity.  

Everyone VS Zerg actually sounds like it might be a fun thing.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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2 minutes ago, Gagzer said:

The reason that Crowfall isn't that is because it's an early alpha. Your other point about deserving to win the game if you can create such a large guild is not true, it goes against what the devs were talking about in the video about Uncle Bob becoming so powerful that he's constantly winning. It shouldn't be about a portion of people wanting to have fun, it should be about every player getting the best experience possible, not just getting stomped because they refuse to join a mainstream guild.

No, it is true, if you are able to gather so many high skilled players together that you can steam roll everyone in a game with a high skill-ceiling then you deserve to win.

However, if you do it in a low skill-ceiling game then you didn't do anything skillful, and don't really deserve to be rewarded for doing things that aren't really skillful. 

Also crowfall doesn't have a high skill-ceiling for many reasons outside of simply being pre-alpha.  Some of the design decisions currently favor a lower skill-ceiling.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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It's a known sandbox problem that's been tackled in many different ways in many different games, right now I haven't seen any particular decisions that imply Crowfall has it's own unique solution to that specific 'problem'. However, we also have none of those high level campaign mechanics yet and what little we know is very hand-wavy and theoretical. The other usual 'bad' scenario for mega guilds is stagnation, however due to the limited campaign time and what should be clear victory conditions that particular case should be mitigated.

So ultimately they just need some sort of mechanics that mitigate the value of the almighty blob at some arbitrary point, right now we don't have enough info to really answer the question.


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Thank you all for your responses, I was just looking for a good answer to this problem which can be apparent in all games. I believe that the devs will be able to sort it out but I just wanted to bring this up so that the devs can try and find a way to correct this problem.

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ACE have taken some steps to reduce the Uncle Bob effect, such as resetting campaigns, but they haven't completely eliminated it. I don't think they promised to.

There will be zergs. Just how big they will get, and the effect it will have on campaigns remains to be seen. You can't promise your friend there will be no Uncle Bob dynamics at all.


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5 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Speculation here, but because they plan on closing campaigns when they are won. 

That won't happen immediately, there will have to be a delay to settle the matter finally. There is nothing in the rules that says players will be able to enter every campaign, so to curtail that sort of zerg behavior, a simple limit by account on how many worlds can be entered at at time would basically make those guilds stuck until the world ends, if they wanted any rewards.

This means that once that super guild is spotted in a world, players would be likely to abandon it and leave it to them, while they move onto a different campaign. By the time super guild shows up in this world because they had to wait to win the previous one, other guilds will be established with buildings and territories, making the superior numbers less meaningful.

Eventually many players in super guilds will get tired of entering empty worlds with no challenge, and internal strife in the guild will cause them to fragment, or reduce in numbers.

All of the above is assuming that smaller guilds won't simply band together and put the zerg guild to the sword at every opportunity.  

Everyone VS Zerg actually sounds like it might be a fun thing.

I think this was the best answer possible for the solution, but I do recognize the other viewpoints and where they come from.

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4 minutes ago, Jah said:

ACE have taken some steps to reduce the Uncle Bob effect, such as resetting campaigns, but they haven't completely eliminated it. I don't think they promised to.

There will be zergs. Just how big they will get, and the effect it will have on campaigns remains to be seen. You can't promise your friend there will be no Uncle Bob dynamics at all.

Personally, I have always liked fighting the Uncle Bobs.  

Some of my best game experiences come from knocking dominant players and guilds off their perches and popping their over inflated ego balloons.

Being the underdog can be a fun thing in and of itself.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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11 minutes ago, Gagzer said:

The reason that Crowfall isn't that is because it's an early alpha. Your other point about deserving to win the game if you can create such a large guild is not true, it goes against what the devs were talking about in the video about Uncle Bob becoming so powerful that he's constantly winning. It shouldn't be about a portion of people wanting to have fun, it should be about every player getting the best experience possible, not just getting stomped because they refuse to join a mainstream guild.


"It shouldn't be about a portion of people wanting to have fun, it should be about every player getting the best experience possible, not just getting stomped because they refuse to join a mainstream guild." 

This is subject to your opinion and hence doesnt make true or false. Games are to be played the way a player so chooses, not according to what you think is right or wrong. I will say though, every large guild iv ever seen in a open-world pvp game eventually collapses do to lack of resources and ego's. 

 

We cannot tell your friend why he/she should or should not buy the game - Games will have zergs, and if thats your reason for not gaming, then maybe stick to a more theme-park style mmo. But please don't suggest the community owes you a dept of fun. 

 

At the end of the day, you do not HAVE to lpay in a campaign with zerg guilds. 

Edited by QuasiDoc

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"Personally, I have always liked fighting the Uncle Bobs.  

Some of my best game experiences come from knocking dominant players and guilds off their perches and popping their over inflated ego balloons.

Being the underdog can be a fun thing in and of itself."

 

True but that might not be the case for all players, I can still see how that would be fun though.

Edited by Gagzer

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There will always be a stronger player or organization exploiting something, whether the only thing they exploit is cooperation and not interesting things like gameplay, tactics and combat strategy: is up to the developers designs. 

Edited by bahamutkaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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