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When your favorite Indie gets money


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22 hours ago, Jah said:

Crowfall Beta hasn't started yet. Come check it out later and I think you'll find many of your assumptions are wrong.

 

22 hours ago, Jah said:

Alternative facts, I suppose.

 

18 hours ago, coolwaters said:

Maybe if you provided citation for your "facts" you'd get less push-back.

Or you could do your own research.

 

8 minutes ago, corvax said:

Correcting my opinions will take away from your full time job of derailing threads, but carry on

Really glad Winterblades added to this conversation.

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VN has a point about the success of survivals that no one wants to give to him. Every survival I have bought and played the first thing I read in global chat is "God this is so frustrating, I just keep getting spawn killed over and over".

In response the devs do.......NOTHING. Then another survival is released and it makes a ton of money.

People keep comparing LoL to Crowfall like they are even remotely similar. Lets just stop because there are no levels to Crowfall, there is no snowballing and there is no resetting at the end of the match. These comparisons are a giant waste of time.

The point VN is making, which I completely agree is why people come to a game like Crowfall that has been advertised as a PVP throne war with full loot options and then demand the rules be changed. The entire point of this thread is to discuss the fact that Crowfall has moved away from initial promises to cater to the masses. They are doing so by lowering the skill ceiling and focusing on zerg friendly tactics. Winterblade (zerg) surprisingly defended Crowfall.

Krakken, you can easily say that turning off FF lowers the skill ceiling. I can make a blanket statement by stating you could turn FF off in every FPS third person shooter and the skill ceiling will be lowered.

Also, I don't care about the sustainability of Crowfall. I am not a stock holder and I get bored of most games in 1-4 months time. I am looking for something I can play for a few months, most video games are a trend and die immediately. I don't expect Crowfall to be any different. Their current path is ensuring they die even faster because the PVP cult following (Still playing Darkfall, still playing Ultima Online) won't stay. There isn't enough sand in the box to keep non PVPers entertained. This is a PVP focused game, lower the skill ceiling on the PVP and you don't have much left.

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3 minutes ago, ClockworkOrange said:

VN has a point about the success of survivals that no one wants to give to him. Every survival I have bought and played the first thing I read in global chat is "God this is so frustrating, I just keep getting spawn killed over and over".

In response the devs do.......NOTHING. Then another survival is released and it makes a ton of money.

People keep comparing LoL to Crowfall like they are even remotely similar. Lets just stop because there are no levels to Crowfall, there is no snowballing and there is no resetting at the end of the match. These comparisons are a giant waste of time.

The point VN is making, which I completely agree is why people come to a game like Crowfall that has been advertised as a PVP throne war with full loot options and then demand the rules be changed. The entire point of this thread is to discuss the fact that Crowfall has moved away from initial promises to cater to the masses. They are doing so by lowering the skill ceiling and focusing on zerg friendly tactics. Winterblade (zerg) surprisingly defended Crowfall.

Krakken, you can easily say that turning off FF lowers the skill ceiling. I can make a blanket statement by stating you could turn FF off in every FPS third person shooter and the skill ceiling will be lowered.

Also, I don't care about the sustainability of Crowfall. I am not a stock holder and I get bored of most games in 1-4 months time. I am looking for something I can play for a few months, most video games are a trend and die immediately. I don't expect Crowfall to be any different. Their current path is ensuring they die even faster because the PVP cult following (Still playing Darkfall, still playing Ultima Online) won't stay. There isn't enough sand in the box to keep non PVPers entertained. This is a PVP focused game, lower the skill ceiling on the PVP and you don't have much left.

And like I've said before, the most ridiculous thing about it all is that crowfall already has other world bands for softer pvp, there is no reason to make even the most inner bands soft when they can already cater to that crowd with other bands.

It's like some people like apples, some people like oranges, the supermarket can offer both, but the people that like apples are demanding that the oranges be turned into apples as well. 

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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5 minutes ago, ClockworkOrange said:

VN has a point about the success of survivals that no one wants to give to him. Every survival I have bought and played the first thing I read in global chat is "God this is so frustrating, I just keep getting spawn killed over and over".

In response the devs do.......NOTHING. Then another survival is released and it makes a ton of money.

People keep comparing LoL to Crowfall like they are even remotely similar. Lets just stop because there are no levels to Crowfall, there is no snowballing and there is no resetting at the end of the match. These comparisons are a giant waste of time.

The point VN is making, which I completely agree is why people come to a game like Crowfall that has been advertised as a PVP throne war with full loot options and then demand the rules be changed. The entire point of this thread is to discuss the fact that Crowfall has moved away from initial promises to cater to the masses. They are doing so by lowering the skill ceiling and focusing on zerg friendly tactics. Winterblade (zerg) surprisingly defended Crowfall.

Krakken, you can easily say that turning off FF lowers the skill ceiling. I can make a blanket statement by stating you could turn FF off in every FPS third person shooter and the skill ceiling will be lowered.

Also, I don't care about the sustainability of Crowfall. I am not a stock holder and I get bored of most games in 1-4 months time. I am looking for something I can play for a few months, most video games are a trend and die immediately. I don't expect Crowfall to be any different. Their current path is ensuring they die even faster because the PVP cult following (Still playing Darkfall, still playing Ultima Online) won't stay. There isn't enough sand in the box to keep non PVPers entertained. This is a PVP focused game, lower the skill ceiling on the PVP and you don't have much left.

If that's the case, you were never the target demographic anyway.  Skill training times are in YEARS, not weeks or months.

ACE is trying to build this game for the long haul, the EvE of the genre, not a No Man's Sky fast flame out game.

To do that, ACE needs to consider player and gamer type that will be there for the long haul in enough numbers to support the greater plan.

Sometimes that means walking it back from hardcore.

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4 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

And like I've said before, the most ridiculous thing about it all is that crowfall already has other world bands for softer pvp, there is no reason to make even the most inner bands soft when they can already cater to that crowd with other bands.

It's like some people like apples, some people like oranges, the supermarket can offer both, but the people that like apples are demanding that the oranges be turned into apples as well. 

I think the problem is you can only get Oranges in dregs. People want oranges, but don't like the rules of dregs. So they cry to developers to make it easier to get oranges. For some reason people don't like the "get good" response anymore. Personally I feel its a great response and often sums up the problem in two words. I don't expect to win an Olympic medal in running. It would be unreasonable for me to ask the Olympics committee to change the rules so I can. See the comparison here?

Turning off FF will create zergs. Zergs will eliminate the need to "get good" because you can win by numbers alone. I am worried about the direction Crowfall is headed.

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39 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

If that's the case, you were never the target demographic anyway.  Skill training times are in YEARS, not weeks or months.

ACE is trying to build this game for the long haul, the EvE of the genre, not a No Man's Sky fast flame out game.

To do that, ACE needs to consider player and gamer type that will be there for the long haul in enough numbers to support the greater plan.

Sometimes that means walking it back from hardcore.

Well they screwed up their subscription model basically immediately with the obvious better alternative of purchasing multiple copies.

This game is not comparable to EVE. Crowfall only has PVP content. Why would people play a PVP focused game with outdated graphics prior to launch for years when it has a low skill ceiling and little other content (crafting/gathering)? If we want to look at this in terms of Sand, EVE is the Sahara desert and Crowfall is a half empty bucket. Crowfall will be F2P or dead within 1 year of launch.

22 minutes ago, Jah said:

If you are trying to make a persuasive argument, I'm not sure that helps.

I am actually trying to say sustainability doesn't matter in this discussion. I already pointed out that companies have every reason to "sell out" and that they are smart for doing so. That being said, I don't want that kind of game. I am stating my opinions of what I want. Not what I think they should do for a profitable or sustainable business model.

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On 2017-6-26 at 7:36 PM, ClockworkOrange said:

....

On friendly fire: You probably don't know this since you haven't tested in a while, but there has been a pretty massive (but unannounced) change to how delivery mechanisms work for several melee LMBs and other powers as well. Instead of being the big ass AoE cones they were before, melees LMBs were changed to some type of single target raycast. Other powers received the same treatment, like legio's bellow and myrm net as well I believe. Probably others I'm not remembering. It's still a wonky aiming system (specially for melee as that can create weird looking animations that go through the enemy but do not hit) however it was probably the first big step I have seen the game take towards making full FF more of a possibility. There are still a lot of other powers that have huge ass hitboxes, so who knows what their goal is. On top of the entire healing system ofc, which would need to be changed. 5-man group immunity may not be your ideal for FF, but I can assure you it does hinder zerg strategies (just not as much as full FF might, but it does). Personally, I don't care either way. 5-man group immunity works fine with combat how it is, full FF would be fine as well if they can change how healing works and finish modifying delivery mechanisms for the rest of the powers. If they have enough time and resources to do that before the game goes live, it'd be pretty cool. I'm just not holding my breath, release schedule is already late as it is. 

Full loot: I haven't kept up to date on the forums as much lately, but I don't recall them ever saying the current loot system of the pre-alpha server as being the one that will be used for the Dregs? Is that the case? Equipped gear will never be lootable, anywhere? I honestly have no clue. And again, I really don't care one way or another. More worried about the fun factor here tbh. If it takes several hours to farm and craft a single set of gear (hello, overly bloated crafting system) then I honestly don't mind a more carebear loot system where you get to keep your equipped gear. You cite survival games as examples, crafting a new set of gear in those games is so much easier and faster than Crowfall. I would prefer if gear is easy to make and easy to lose, personally. But alas. They seem to like their crafting system requiring hundreds of mats to make one set of plate armor. 

Skill based aiming: I'm not the huge projectile advocate everyone here seems to be. I'm ok with raycast/hitscan. Honestly, whatever gives the game the best performance is fine by me. In my ideal world, arrows and fireballs would be projectiles, and instant magic spells would be raycast. And then dmg would be scaled accordingly. But if the game is going to have better performance with everything hitscan, that's fine by me. No point in fancy physics, projectile drops over distance, etc. if everything runs like poorly made socks. If they can make it work and keep good performance, yea sure. More realistic projectiles is better ofc. And raises the skill ceiling. But again, performance is my concern here. Projectiles on ranger back in HD felt like poorly made socks in the laggy hitchy combat we had. And probably contributed to poor performance even more. But other than the projectile vs hitscan debate, I do agree aiming in this game is a mess right now. Hitboxes and DMs are all over the place. You have stupid things like the confessor AoE which knockdowns everyone with the hitbox the size of a house and goes through LoS (gg). Other newer powers feel a lot tighter with the single target raycast, so there may be hope yet for less mind numbing DMs. 

Race/class split: I actually like this change. I don't mind losing the potential for a forgemaster and stalker class, since we get to keep the races and get more customization options for our characters in return. A ranger that could teleport was never going to be a thing with archetypes, but now it is with race and class. Just as an example. If they kept archetypes, I'd be ok with that. But apparently race and class split was a big deal for a lot of other players out there. Whatever draws more players to the game is good to me. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, ClockworkOrange said:

Also, I don't care about the sustainability of Crowfall. I am not a stock holder and I get bored of most games in 1-4 months time. I am looking for something I can play for a few months, most video games are a trend and die immediately. I don't expect Crowfall to be any different. Their current path is ensuring they die even faster because the PVP cult following (Still playing Darkfall, still playing Ultima Online) won't stay. There isn't enough sand in the box to keep non PVPers entertained. This is a PVP focused game, lower the skill ceiling on the PVP and you don't have much left.

Booooo Go away! Everything you said is now void and no one should take you seriously!

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2 hours ago, ClockworkOrange said:

Also, I don't care about the sustainability of Crowfall. I am not a stock holder and I get bored of most games in 1-4 months time. I am looking for something I can play for a few months, most video games are a trend and die immediately. I don't expect Crowfall to be any different. Their current path is ensuring they die even faster because the PVP cult following (Still playing Darkfall, still playing Ultima Online) won't stay. There isn't enough sand in the box to keep non PVPers entertained. This is a PVP focused game, lower the skill ceiling on the PVP and you don't have much left.

Booooo Go away! Everything you said is now void and no one should take you seriously!

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On 6/26/2017 at 5:36 PM, ClockworkOrange said:

I haven't played Crowfall Beta in sometime. I still check the forums from time to time to check on updates as this is a game I am still very much excited for.

To be honest, I am MOST excited for what this game promised to be. This game seemed to be an answer for hardcore PVP gamers who were sick of WoW clone theme parks. Many of us who like full loot PVP and skill based aiming looked to Crowfall as the answer.

Time has past since those early days and Crowfall continues to gain more money. In doing so they have basically flat out told us we will never get FF (never promised, but we speculated there would be a campaign style for this).

Wrong

We have been told there really won't even be full loot PVP (originally they said yes, but we find out equipped gear doesn't drop).

Wrong

We have also learned that there isn't skill based aiming (This game aims like tab target games. Don't be wonderful and face your opponent and you will hit, sometimes it actually asks for less then that.)

Wrong

Crowfall also told us that animators were expensive so they would save money by creating racial and gender locked Archetypes. They later decided this wouldn't be the case, scrapped two originally promised classes and opted for more time and money going to animators. Don't know about you, but I prefer two additional classes to looking just the way I want to in the one I will play (You know, substance over shinnies).

This was one of the first thoughts I had. I thought they were taking shortcuts but I believe whatever they saved by getting rid of those classes, they added back those resources by making this change. They saw demand for this change so they made the change. So... wrong again!

There has even been talk of "safe zones" ..... Gross.

You lack context

 

Are all these changes being made for the best? Or is it simply the case that as this game continues to grow in funding and popularity that it will be stripped of everything us hardcore gamers backed it for in the first place?

Would they make a change because they thought it wasn't for the best? Do you think they are purposely trying to tank the company? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

 

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For all of the problems people have with the game atm mechanically and design-wise, I think people keep forgetting one important thing...

The game is still Pre-Alpha 5 (is it Alpha or Pre-Alpha? It feels like Alpha but they call it pre-alpha), with most core mechanics not even properly conceptualized (if they are the devs aren't letting people in on it until it's been checked). Problems with performance and game mechanics WILL be resolved, since they make the game.

Another note:

A major issue mentioned by pretty much everyone even if not directly stated is that the game is going to be too hard for the general masses?

I think that's true if you're only a solo player. To be fair I don't see solo players enjoying the game. It was made for groups of people, guilds. If you thought of being your own "Hero", you probably didn't know what you were buying into. The casual matches that want to try out the game and burn alone are going to burn out quickly.

I mentioned this in another thread but I'll say it here: Their idea of a trinity system is the Combat, Crafting, and Harvesting. The people who want to be basically the best PvPers who trained into Combat will guard the harvesters and crafters, while the harvesters who are ripped enough to pop higher tier nodes (trained enough into that particular harvesting tree) for the crafters so they can continue to provide better tools, vessels, gear, and items for the combat and harvesting oriented people so the whole thing doesn't collapse to rivals. It's a symbiosis.

And ultimately, you skeptical folks should take what I say with a grain of salt, since I think it's whats gonna happen and not something I know for certain. We'll forget this thread in the future probably.

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9 hours ago, ClockworkOrange said:

why people come to a game like Crowfall that has been advertised as a PVP throne war with full loot options and then demand the rules be changed. The entire point of this thread is to discuss the fact that Crowfall has moved away from initial promises to cater to the masses. They are doing so by lowering the skill ceiling and focusing on zerg friendly tactics.

They promised a game design that catered to a variety of play styles with varying rule sets and campaigns. 

People saying they want the game to play one way or another is irrelevant simply because of their plan to allow multiple ways to play.

What I see is people, like usual, demanding/expecting devs to cater to them and them alone and everyone else getting in line or moving along. Makes no sense. You, me, little johnny boo boo can all get our way if the devs are creative and enough folks want what we do.

If 10 people want FFA/Permadeath, probably not going to cater to them. If 1000000 want no FFA, pretty smart to make a few CWs for them.

I haven't seen them make any sweeping changes that would cater to one group or another that can't be switched on/off or turned with a dial.

If they stick with Risk v Reward, they can add/remove any setting and reward (or not) players for doing well in those settings.

I see potentially a lack of team experience, tech limitations, and overall common MMO/PVP road bumps impacting development, but nothing surprising.

Saying they are lowering the skill ceiling means it was actually high at some point or that they are even capable of increasing it with whatever means you believe. This has nothing to go on. If anything, their initial non-twitch, sort of like Wildstar should say enough of what they planned for "skill." Obviously they could adjust abilities and tighten things up (which they continue to do), but I don't see them intentionally trying to make a game a hamster could dominate. If you are already a pro taking on ten folks at a time (even though you haven't logged in for a while...) good for you, maybe you should find something more challenging than pushing mouse buttons and moving pixels around.

Zergs will exist no matter what. Certain mechanics and limitations can decrease the potential of mindless sheep balls, but you can't remove communication, player skill, team work, and the obvious pure size of a force. Flipping on FFA or FF of whatever flavor might help and guess what, they can do just that. However, they never have nor do I see them turning this into a FPS MMO where precision aim or whatever is going to become the standard over typical MMO combat mechanics.

There was a lot of assumption from initial backers based on player created hype. Now that a few years have passed, none of this should be shocking. There is still a long ways to go and if ACE has any sense, they'll stick to their initial multi-way-to-play design and release something that will actually please a lot different types of players. Those with short attention spans will log in, out, and move on. By your own admission, easy to tell what you'll be doing. Don't see how CF in any form caters to "the masses" and if anything, is just a niche within a niche already. Tweaking a few systems here or there isn't going to make this WoW 1.5.

Edited by APE

 


 

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12 hours ago, Tark said:

 

Why do you even reply? You write a single answer "Wrong" to most my statements then have the audacity to say I lack context in one of my points.

You then go on to ignore and not even understand my questions at the end by the stupid conclusion you somehow came up with in question form.

Me: Are all these changes being made for the best? Or is it simply the case that as this game continues to grow in funding and popularity that it will be stripped of everything us hardcore gamers backed it for in the first place?

You: Do you think they are purposely trying to tank the company? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

I realize how ridiculous you sound. Nothing I said even hints at them trying to tank the company. What a dumb conclusion to draw.

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32 minutes ago, ClockworkOrange said:

Are all these changes being made for the best? Or is it simply the case that as this game continues to grow in funding and popularity that it will be stripped of everything us hardcore gamers backed it for in the first place?

Issue I see is the "changes" don't exist. You are making assumptions based on little fact.

Actually confused how you believe CF continues to gain popularity/funding when it appears to have pretty much lost the interest of many fans for now. Tests/Forum aren't buzzing with people and the $$$ tracking isn't skyrocketing.

Full loot, FF, Risk v Reward, no safe zones, spend all day holding F because "hardcore," seem to still exist and or will be easily toggled come release.

Till then, the sky is falling I guess.

 


 

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This is just an awful thread. It started with OP citing "facts" that are maybe true in this current test, but are wholly unrepresentative of what we know the end game to look like. I really hate the trend of snap-shotting current builds, as if assuming this game isn't still a huge work in progress. You need to spend 3 years reviewing everything the developers have said like most of us have, and then try to hold them accountable to *that* vision. If you haven't bothered to read what the vision is, why should anyone bother to read your inane posts.

I couldn't come up with a suitable analogy for this behavior, but that's fine, because this thread doesn't deserve it anyways.

Edited by scree
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26 minutes ago, scree said:

This is just an awful thread. It started with OP citing "facts" that are maybe true in this current test, but are wholly unrepresentative of what we know the end game to look like. I really hate the trend of snap-shotting current builds, as if assuming this game isn't still a huge work in progress. You need to spend 3 years reviewing everything the developers have said like most of us have, and then try to hold them accountable to *that* vision. If you haven't bothered to read what the vision is, why should anyone bother to read your inane posts.

I couldn't come up with a suitable analogy for this behavior, but that's fine, because this thread doesn't deserve it anyways.

This. Yet another unproductive thread, who'd have thought? :lol: 

Edited by Xarrayne

P.S. Grr Winterblades 🦌

eecdd84bdc5daead4b795a3e075d2347.png

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13 hours ago, scree said:

You need to spend 3 years reviewing everything the developers have said like most of us have, and then try to hold them accountable to *that* vision. If you haven't bothered to read what the vision is, why should anyone bother to read your inane posts.

HAHAHAHAHA. HAHAHAHA. I have to spend 3 years reviewing everything to be able to post? Can you even begin to comprehend how ridiculous that sounds to a "normal" person?

Could have sworn I was trying to have a general discussion...... guess I posted in the wrong section..... or did I?

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As someone who gets to see a bit more of ACE's philosophies on many "hardcore" related features I do not think clockworkoranges concerns are unwarranted.

That being said, I've always suggested that ACE test some of the more skill-related features later in development when the game is more polished.

If they test prematurely they are going to get a lot of QQ from less-skilled players because those players are going to be looking for any excuse they can possibly find to keep the game at their level of skill.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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