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Guild strongholds - Official discussion thread

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11 minutes ago, durenthal said:

It feels like CWs are going to need to have fairly generous import rules if the EKs and production of goods in EKs, and exporting goods is to matter.

I would agree that some CWs will need to have fairly generous Import rules. It will not be difficult to turn up the Import knob, so i have no reason to believe it won't happen. People will ask for it and ACE will do it., IMO.

Edited by Jah

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1 minute ago, blazzen said:

People are paying thousands for ships in Star Citizen - is this really that different? 

Kinda... in SC you can buy those ships and PvP with them.  You can't PvP (yet) with these strongholds.

Paying thousands of dollars for a ship in SC is a big turn off for some people, me included.  Paying thousands of dollars for player housing is not as big of a turn off. 


"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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9 minutes ago, durenthal said:

I have a couple of concerns about this:

  1. It still feels like EKs are divorced from the game proper.  You keep saying there's an inter-relation, but we're not seeing it.  It's glorified oversized instanced housing.  Which is fine in and of itself - lots of games do well with instanced housing and prettifying them via the cash shop.  But that's not what you're advertising.  You're saying the EKs are a vital part of the economy, and that doesn't seem to mesh at all with what you're saying about import and export rules on CWs.  If there are a lot of no-import CWs, then EKs and items produced there are effectively meaningless.  And if that stuff is meaningless, then exporting goods from CWs is also meaningless.  And given that increased exports are the rewards for winning a CW, we run into the case where winning only matters for bragging rights (again, that's probably good enough reason to try to win, but it doesn't match what you're advertising).    It feels like CWs are going to need to have fairly generous import rules if the EKs and production of goods in EKs, and exporting goods is to matter.

 

The import / export concept to me has always been kinda screwy. Exactly how much will you be able to import and export, and why would you want to import more than you can equip? Especially considering you won't (or apparently won't) have control of where you'll end up on campaign start. Loading in with a bunch of goodies only to be surrounded by a bunch of unpleasant people that kill you and take them seems like a bad strategy. Will we have the same 2 minute grace period before we can equip our gear?

9 minutes ago, blazzen said:

People are paying several hundred dollars to a few thousand dollars for ships in Star Citizen - it this really that different? 

The way I look at it is you actually get significantly use of the ships. They're front and center, while EKs are kinda "just there" - off to the side. Ships and vessels are a better comparison.

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42 minutes ago, durenthal said:

I have a couple of concerns about this:

  1. It sounds like you're expecting guilds to trust their guild leader enough to send him/her real world money (almost as much as the cost of the game) to purchase group housing for the guild. 

True.  To the degree player housing in thr EKs is necessary for competition this system certainly favors established guilds or tight knit communities.  

New guilds/ mass recruitment outfits will have a harder time.  Im sure Sugoi will likely be relying on a small core of trusted folks rather than a levy from the masses.  It will be interesting for truly new guilds at soft launch with no kickstarter packages and VIP redeemables.

(Hopefully the expensive stuff is just cosmetic value. No pvp edge.)

Edited by angelmar

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3 minutes ago, Destrin said:

Kinda... in SC you can buy those ships and PvP with them.  You can't PvP (yet) with these strongholds.

Paying thousands of dollars for a ship in SC is a big turn off for some people, me included.  Paying thousands of dollars for player housing is not as big of a turn off. 

I agree with you, however, I think we're in the minority since SC has raised over 10 times what Crowfall has. 

The fact that you can PVP with the store bought ships in SC whereas the store bought strongholds can't be used in campaign worlds in Crowfall is probably the reason why people complain about the Crowfall store prices. At that price point they expect to be able to P2W which is essentially what you're able to do in SC but unable to do in CF. 

I don't want to derail this thread too far but the fact that SC has raised 10x what CF has with a P2W model brings up an interesting discussion regarding what gamers think about P2W mechanics. I'm not suggesting Crowfall should go P2W but maybe they should consider some things that might bring them additional revenue like...ahem...3 VIP general trains. 


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1 minute ago, blazzen said:

The fact that you can PVP with the store bought ships in SC whereas the store bought strongholds can't be used in campaign worlds in Crowfall is probably the reason why people complain about the Crowfall store prices. At that price point they expect to be able to P2W which is essentially what you're able to do in SC but unable to do in CF. 

That would only be true for people that want P2W features. I think for others, they see the prices, wrongly presume they are P2W castles that can be used in campaigns, and write off Crowfall as a P2W game.


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31 minutes ago, durenthal said:

I have a couple of concerns about this:

.....

  1. It still feels like EKs are divorced from the game proper.  You keep saying there's an inter-relation, but we're not seeing it.  It's glorified oversized instanced housing.  Which is fine in and of itself - lots of games do well with instanced housing and prettifying them via the cash shop.  But that's not what you're advertising.  You're saying the EKs are a vital part of the economy, and that doesn't seem to mesh at all with what you're saying about import and export rules on CWs.  If there are a lot of no-import CWs, then EKs and items produced there are effectively meaningless.  And if that stuff is meaningless, then exporting goods from CWs is also meaningless.  And given that increased exports are the rewards for winning a CW, we run into the case where winning only matters for bragging rights (again, that's probably good enough reason to try to win, but it doesn't match what you're advertising).    It feels like CWs are going to need to have fairly generous import rules if the EKs and production of goods in EKs, and exporting goods is to matter.

This has been the criticism since kickstarter.  There seems to be no basis for the economy to circulate between the EKs and CWs

I'm sure that if the community demands rulesets that allow for JTC'S "uncle bob" to import all his stuff, then on some CWs it will be enabled.

They could also make the faction rulesets full import or create an opt-in pvp ladder system for the EKs to give them additional purpose and to get the economy to actually circulate.

Edited by angelmar

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The value of an EK is hard for many to measure but it will definitely be there assuming the game is successful.  They are staging grounds for CWs and because not all campaigns will have zero import, and the talk of seasonal imports has been mentioned, being able to build up stuff to send into a campaign will be important for the guilds that enjoy slight to severe uncle bob. 

People are asking why you would ever want to import a lot into a CW, well there could be many reasons, pride, competitiveness, to get more out of it than you invested by winning the whole thing, etc.

The ability to hold a popular EK and get tons of traffic of goods is a huge benefit to find exactly what you need to give yourself the best chance to win going into CWs.

On top of it EKs aren't just for hoarding stuff and getting ready to import into a CW, they can be turned into PvP battle scenarios, arena practice, etc etc. 

A popular guild that develops their EK correctly, gets everyone to hang out at their EK, can turn that into other content creation opportunities, grow streams from that, grow youtubes, grow website interest, etc etc. 

 

 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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30 minutes ago, blazzen said:

I agree with you, however, I think we're in the minority since SC has raised over 10 times what Crowfall has. 

The fact that you can PVP with the store bought ships in SC whereas the store bought strongholds can't be used in campaign worlds in Crowfall is probably the reason why people complain about the Crowfall store prices. At that price point they expect to be able to P2W which is essentially what you're able to do in SC but unable to do in CF. 

I don't want to derail this thread too far but the fact that SC has raised 10x what CF has with a P2W model brings up an interesting discussion regarding what gamers think about P2W mechanics. I'm not suggesting Crowfall should go P2W but maybe they should consider some things that might bring them additional revenue like...ahem...3 VIP general trains. 

I think SC is catering to a different crowd, has a much broader appeal to it, and is promising the universe to its backers. It's also pretty.  CF with a much more narrow focus, has a much more limited scope, and is catering to people looking for a specific type of game play... SC has also dumped a crap load of money in to advertising, CitizenCons, Gaming Expos etc, so it has a much larger reach than CF does.

 

Edited by Destrin

"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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EKs definitely needs more functions then just being a super expensive house where you can store stuff. Even when an EK becomes famous enough to be a trade hub (IMO the apex an EK can reach today) it is still pretty meh for 90% of the playerbase.

The EK PvP someone mentioned would be a big step in the right direction. Otherwise people like me have no reason to ever go to EKs, even if i join a guild (still on the fence) i dont see myself wasting time on EKs.

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My first thought when I came to the game cold and saw the prices was, for lack of better words: "WTF? Are they having a laugh?"

Then I realised that this is a game that requires big guilds to be successful, quickly did the math and thought the prices weren't so exorbitant, provided that everyone contributes or you got a few big spenders in the guild. Which is a big if, to be honest.

My second thought was: "Ugh, another P2P win game!"

Then I did some more research and realised that the EK is pretty much divorced from the campaign and more serves as a social and trading hub.

At that stage I was comfortable with the subject.

However, that took me a while to get my head around and, like Tinnis, I have seen too many negative comments about these prices and P2W perceptions that I do really wonder what the point is and if it discourages too many people. Wouldn't it be better to break the big packages up in smaller ones, so the prices don't look as inflated and there's a smaller chance of wrong Pay-to-Win perceptions?

Either way, I do agree with the concept in principle that these big strongholds (e.g. the Mountain or Imperial Palace) should be unachievable for most guilds and that only a few really dedicated guilds so be able to accumulate enough real or in-game wealth to build these. Otherwise it'd defeat the purpose of them.

 

 

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With the EK concept ACE is giving megaguilds the opportunity to stage success across many campaigns at once.  Eventually the best guilds are not going to be interested in 1 campaign at a time, and they will look to dominate many campaigns simultaneously. 

The potential is very great, imagine 2 megaguilds going at it with each CW being another battlefront for them and waging a huge war across the entire crowfall universe. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

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the problem is amplified by crowfall being "the mmo you can win" ... combined with potentially spending $1,000s...

and how people react to that combination without properly looking into it...

and even as this thread demonstrates even those of us familar with the systems don't truly know what the full loop will end up being

Edited by Tinnis

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5 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

the problem is amplified by crowfall being "the mmo you can win" ... combined with potentially spending $1,000s...

and how people react to that combination without properly looking into it...

and even as this thread demonstrates even those of us familar with the systems don't truly know what the full loop will end up being

I think ACE has shown enough to see their vision behind it.  It's also pretty easy to project what they are going for here. 


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EKs seem pretty logically integral to the whole game-play loop sustaining itself in the long haul and you'll be front loading as much as an import will allow you into a campaign. Without EKs as the common link for players to regroup/store spoils/prep there would be no real persistence or value in winning, which would turn the CWs into a longer and more complex version of any other MMOs instanced battleground which would lose you a good size portion of your audience. Some level of (possible) persistence and progression is important to a lot of players, that's why we like MMOs like this versus lobby games. Otherwise we would just go play some other similar lobby game.

For example (aside from some folks just preferring the ruleset) I think most folks would never bother with something like the Dregs if the rewards weren't usable elsewhere, but because they are high risk for high reward suddenly it's a lot more tempting for players that will use those rewards elsewhere. 

How Import/Export ends up working is going to be pretty important to all of this, but I think the groundwork is there. For example the first implication from the test campaign blog says you can import 10 items or stacks. That right off the bat means that importing raw resource stacks is possibly a lot more valuable than pre-crafting items in most cases. Depending on how the limits work in the real campaign my current thought is that we'll mainly import stacks of resources with maybe one good set of 'high quality' gear that might not be craftable by your campaign buddies.

Edited by Duffy

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1 hour ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

The value of an EK is hard for many to measure but it will definitely be there assuming the game is successful.  They are staging grounds for CWs and because not all campaigns will have zero import, and the talk of seasonal imports has been mentioned, being able to build up stuff to send into a campaign will be important for the guilds that enjoy slight to severe uncle bob. 

People are asking why you would ever want to import a lot into a CW, well there could be many reasons, pride, competitiveness, to get more out of it than you invested by winning the whole thing, etc.

The ability to hold a popular EK and get tons of traffic of goods is a huge benefit to find exactly what you need to give yourself the best chance to win going into CWs.

On top of it EKs aren't just for hoarding stuff and getting ready to import into a CW, they can be turned into PvP battle scenarios, arena practice, etc etc. 

A popular guild that develops their EK correctly, gets everyone to hang out at their EK, can turn that into other content creation opportunities, grow streams from that, grow youtubes, grow website interest, etc etc. 

 

 

I agree with all of these points.

The one thing that is not addressed is how EK's will tie into the no import dregs campaigns for guilds that plan on playing exclusively in FFA no import campaigns. It could be argued that only playing no import campaigns is the player's/guild's choice and not necessarily a flaw in the EK and import/export design. 

Edited by blazzen

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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12 minutes ago, blazzen said:

I agree with all of these points.

The one thing that is not addressed is how EK's will tie into the no import dregs campaigns for guilds that plan on playing exclusively in FFA no import campaigns. It could be argued that only playing no import campaigns is the player's/guild's choice and not necessarily a flaw in the EK and import/export design. 

That's exactly the point, it isn't a flaw, and if those guilds are good enough to succeed that way well tough luck to other guilds trying to do business with them if those guilds have nothing to offer of interest to them. 

There will always be people who choose to play games differently from one another.  Some may strictly pvp, others may strictly pve.  But that itself won't stop the EKs from functioning, if a multi band guild wants dregs stuff enough they will either go in and try to get it themselves and learn to succeed or learn to trade something others want.  Or of course the other option is they just fail at getting the stuff because they can't overcome the social or mechanical obstacles of high risk high reward.  There's also nothing saying you need the best mats to win anyway.  Who knows how much that stuff matters compared to logistics and organization.

Honestly this is also another reason I think the game should have full FF for the dregs.  The dregs should be the answer for those die hard pvpers that don't want any uncle bob elements and want the harshest environment.  They need a playground too.  Whereas shadows can be the dregs for the mega guilds in that they can still get really high quality mats there while keeping the overall structure and friendliness to large scale pvp. 

I want to see dregs as complete chaos, roaming bands of tight knit pvp guilds, and less structure, and things like full FF to punish people that would try to win it through simple zerging and faceroll.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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49 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

<snip> 

I want to see dregs as complete chaos, roaming bands of tight knit pvp guilds, and less structure, and things like full FF to punish people that would try to win it through simple zerging and faceroll.

Slightly deviating from the topic of this thread but, yes, friendly fire is a must for the Dregs and perhaps some of the other bandings as well. I've played Warhammer Online a lot and the mindless zerging eventually gets to you because there's no punishment mechanic that stops players from doing so.

Edited by Nirnaeth

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It's been a while since I've managed a guild, but is $15/guildee a feasible model? I ask because I remember having a mutiny when I requested $5/guildee to cover real world expenses. As someone else mentioned, our reality was a small number of players contributing at higher levels. In that scenario, several players contributed $20 and a couple gave $50. 

To me, $15 for a solo player seems reasonable since that player reaps all the reward. But I also think it's fair to factor in bystander syndrome and to lower the cost per player for larger structures to something closer to $5/player. It's like when someone's drowning and only one person is there to witness, that one person is much more likely to jump in than they would if there were 50 people there. Especially since we're encouraging larger guilds, there should be more incentive for the larger lots, imo. 

 

Either way, it's not a sticking point for me, especially because these things can be crafted. But the prices do seem egregious without context.  

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Ek's are Valhalla!

The no import Dregs are where the best mats will come from. But if you win and export all that sweet, filthy, blood covered, lucre then it can be used to dominate some of the import campaigns. (Or just used to make a legendary axe to hang on the wall.)

The gilded armor was not worn into combat, it was worn to show the peasants who was king.  The gold cups were not used on the battlefield, it was used at home between battles. 
 

That is what the ek will affect with the dregs players. Status. Bragging proof. 

The other players will use it as an advantage on the lower tiers.  

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