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Skill mechanics - Official discussion thread

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14 minutes ago, Jah said:

So then why is making people pay for VIP benefits (if they want them) a punishment?

If you pay you get benefits. Is that not positive reinforcement for paying?

The presence of a positive reinforcement for paying does not mean the absence of negative consequences for not paying. It's sad this needs to be pointed out to some people, or that there are those who would deny that is true.

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1 hour ago, Anthrage said:

The presence of a positive reinforcement for paying does not mean the absence of negative consequences for not paying. It's sad this needs to be pointed out to some people, or that there are those who would deny that is true.

A bit unclear what you are trying to say here.

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Five VIP accounts, two environments (one fresh, one ~6 months old). Actively training skills represented only (which means this calendar is only partially complete).

Optimal training on Saturday would require logging on 9 times over the course of 17 hours. 

 

1*3sVFT0Sa45yKd2utBlr3Dg.png

 

Edited by Orleans

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2 hours ago, Anthrage said:

The presence of a positive reinforcement for paying does not mean the absence of negative consequences for not paying. It's sad this needs to be pointed out to some people, or that there are those who would deny that is true.

 

1 hour ago, Jah said:

A bit unclear what you are trying to say here.

I think what is being said here is that simply removing a negative, like the crappy and nearly impossible login schedule to prevent falling behind in skill training, does not mean it's positive. 

Paying to avoid penalties is not the same thing as getting something positive for your money. Automatic, passive skill training was advertised and PAID FOR as part of the core of the game. The current plan for the differences between VIP and not totally removes the automatic and passive nature stated in the FAQ.

Suddenly taking away that promised feature is not one bit different than if ACE decided that in order to join a guild you had to be paying VIP to do it.

(What, you want to run around with other people? You should be happy you can login and go out by yourself for "free").

It's not paying to gain a positive, in it's current form it is simply removing a negative.

At this point I would rather have active training and farming grind, where I can eventually catch up if I work hard, than be a non-VIP player and be limited, behind,  AND stuck trying to juggle a crappy login schedule.

What's fun about any of that?

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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4 hours ago, Orleans said:

Five VIP accounts, two environments (one fresh, one ~6 months old). Actively training skills represented only (which means this calendar is only partially complete).

Optimal training on Saturday would require logging on 9 times over the course of 17 hours. 

 

1*3sVFT0Sa45yKd2utBlr3Dg.png

 

Lies. Scree told me it would be an non-issue.

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On 8/9/2017 at 0:41 PM, Jah said:

Does McDonald's punish people by making them pay extra for fries and a coke when they buy a Big Mac?

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

On 8/9/2017 at 1:43 PM, Jah said:

So then why is making people pay for VIP benefits (if they want them) a punishment?

If you pay you get benefits. Is that not positive reinforcement for paying?

Yes, The provision of queues for VIP does provide more value for buying VIP. No one disputes that fact.

As Orleans pointed out McDonald's positively reinforces buying your fries and coke with your burger by offering the Value Meal volume discount.

Punishing you for the extra food purchase might be making you wait until your food gets cold before providing the fries and coke (e.g.).

Negative Reinforcement might be playing Slim Whitman Recordings until you agreed to upgrade to a Value Meal (e.g.).

 

Making a player lose significant training time until he pays for VIP and logs in a lot feels like urinating on us and calling it rain.

 

Edited by chancellor

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Just now, chancellor said:

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man"

Don't give me that. I didn't claim to refute anyone's argument, and I didn't misrepresent anyone's argument.

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Perhaps I'm mistaken.

Just don't tell me how you and pang are enjoying this lovely yellow rainstorm. VIP seems to have lost the 3 skill per track queue also.

Edited by chancellor

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In the Livestream today, Todd has confirmed they listened to and considered the points raised in the discussion on the topic, agreeing with some and disagreeing with others, but ultimately deciding some valid points were made regarding quality of life impact for Non-VIP, as well as impact on training efficiency, and he announced the system will be modified to lessen this impact. Details were not given, but any improvement is welcome, and I thank both Todd and everyone who weighed in on this contentious topic, and who did so in a mature and reasonable way. Good news for those with lives/jobs, welcome news to anyone with a heart. :)

Edited by Anthrage

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5 minutes ago, Anthrage said:

... Good news for those with lives/jobs, welcome news to anyone with a heart. :)

...and those with multiple accounts.  

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1 minute ago, Regulus said:

...and those with multiple accounts.  

Yea, much better to put off new customers than figure out other ways to deal with the multiple accounts that doesn't ruin the early/non-VIP experience.

</sarc>

If you build mechanics with nothing else in mind than making multi account players and by extension other players lives difficult, you're doing it wrong.

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Yea, much better to put off new customers than figure out other ways to deal with the multiple accounts that doesn't ruin the early/non-VIP experience.

</sarc>

If you build mechanics with nothing else in mind than making multi account players and by extension other players lives difficult, you're doing it wrong.

I still don't agree that the lack of absolute skill leveling management is going to "ruin the early/non-VIP experience".  I think if someone is that intensively invested in the gameplay (concerned about training their skill right at 3:02 AM as opposed to waiting until 8:30 AM), they need to be supporting the game financially.  Following this line of reasoning, the two populations that stand most to benefit from this change (depending how it is handled) are multi account users and the guy who spent $30 two years ago and expects to game for 10 years on it.  

Edited by Regulus

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32 minutes ago, Regulus said:

I still don't agree that the lack of absolute skill leveling management is going to "ruin the early/non-VIP experience".  I think if someone is that intensively invested in the gameplay (concerned about training their skill right at 3:02 AM as opposed to waiting until 8:30 AM), they need to be supporting the game financially.  Following this line of reasoning, the two populations that stand most to benefit from this change (depending how it is handled) are multi account users and the guy who spent $30 two years ago and expects to game for 10 years on it.  

How hard is it for people to understand?  EVERY PLAYER HAS ALREADY SUPPORTED THE GAME FINANCIALLY!

This is not a F2P game.  Everyone is a paying customer, not a freeloader.

You don't screw over and annoy paying customers, not if you want to stay in business you don't.

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2 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

How hard is it for people to understand?  EVERY PLAYER HAS ALREADY SUPPORTED THE GAME FINANCIALLY!

This is not a F2P game.  Everyone is a paying customer, not a freeloader.

You don't screw over and annoy paying customers, not if you want to stay in business you don't.

The type of people annoyed by this stuff are not the type of people that will make the game last. 

GW2 catered extremely to casuals that wanted everything easy too.

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And Wildstar (Same publisher as GW2) tried to cater to the OMFG ROFL PWNZOR hardcore crowd.... Which is doing better? hmm.... I wonder.

edit: I should say... which is on it's last legs and probably about to get shut down.....

Edited by Destrin

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8 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

EVERY PLAYER HAS ALREADY SUPPORTED THE GAME FINANCIALLY!

...

Especially those who bought 6+ accounts.

Edited by Regulus

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23 minutes ago, Destrin said:

And Wildstar (Same publisher as GW2) tried to cater to the OMFG ROFL PWNZOR hardcore crowd.... Which is doing better? hmm.... I wonder.

No they didn't they tried to cater to what they thought were the hardcore crowd.  The devs themselves completely missed the mark on what a hardcore crowd is.  You could tell from any individual interview during development that the devs for wildstar thought they knew it all, and it was cringeworthy because they often were so off of the mark with design decisions. 

GW2 meanwhile went as far casual as you can pretty much possibly go, and it lost all hardcore players within 2 weeks of launch and has been dwindling in revenue since, aside from the first expansion which was hyped up, but generally turned people off from the game greatly feeling like they got ripped off. 

Niche games don't survive doing casual, blizzard already does casual, gw2 already does casual, you can not out-casual them and your budget can't match their level of polish.

Crowfall catering to casuals who want everything easy is going to be bad for the game.  But most people won't realize that until it is too late. 

 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

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11 minutes ago, Regulus said:

Especially those who bought 6+ accounts.

Hey, I hate alt accounts as much as or more than anyone here, just ask Tark.

But you don't solve that problem by making crappy mechanics that annoy, and just annoy those with less accounts to a lower degree than those that have more. 

Frankly, that's just a stupid idea. Making a game and experience crappy on purpose to drain the will out of cheaters, rather than designing the in game mechanics to handle the problem.

With the level of competition for the gaming dollar out there, something that was not as strong an influence when all the games we are nostalgic for were out and tolerance to grind, boredom and unnecessary difficulty, you might as well pack up shop and call it done if that's your approach.

Everything about the game needs to be made with one goal, to make it a better game first, and not be some ham handed weak ass attempt at pissing off exploiters who will simply script around the problem anyway.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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