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Skill mechanics - Official discussion thread

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Lesson Here...   sometimes what you wish for isn't what you get.

The 100 tick incremental training was better for players as you realized the benefit continuously, particularly in the higher tier nodes.
Now you will wait many many days for that final tick on a tier 8 node getting absolutely nothing in between.   I was happier with 1-100 than with a truncated 1-5.   But who listens to reason...

Now we have to reallocate training every 1/5 of a node with widely variable time scales or pay for what was free up to this point, hmmm another one of those unexpected large steps backwards. 

In 8+ months I have perhaps missed 20-40 hours of training from not precisely planning log in times...  with the new system I would expect that to quadruple at least.   Passive training now feels a lot like it isn't very passive at all, instead of grinding mobs or quests we can now just log in 10 times a day, 3 times to play the game, 7 more for the grind of reselecting the exact same training node again and again...   sounds a lot more like a grind than what we had before.

my 2 cents...   give non-VIP the full node before a re-queue, give VIP multiple node queues as we have been asking for since we first saw the skill training.  This is a game killing change for the casual player base.

 

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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8 minutes ago, canvox said:

I was making fun of you. 

No doubt, but people actually do just as you said.

Striving to be the "best" in a competitive game is not the same as trying to win.

I try to win but have no wish to invest what is necessary to reach the top.

Which is why I find it odd people worried about "casual" players being left behind when that is what it means to be a casual. Being the best or worrying about a few percents here and there shouldn't be a high priority.

Edited by APE

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Having read all the posts on the topic I appear to have raised, it is incredibly clear that many of the proponents of this system, including the devs it would seem, have not thought this through clearly or completely, and are being either disingenuous or delusional. I can't come up with any other way to explain it.

Adding value to VIP/securing ongoing revenue for the game is extremely important. Doing so by penalizing or punishing the majority of your players, either by forcing them to do something they would rather not do, or putting them at a disadvantage for something they are unwilling or unable to do, is dramatically short-sighted and ignores the lessons of games like Shadowbane. It doesn't matter if a portion of your customer base is paying a monthly fee if that portion is far smaller than that which is not, and this is doubly damaging in cases where the game's primary content requires a large player base.

For those who make the absurd claim that this does not punish or disadvantage non-VIP members who for whatever reason fall behind in their training, again, I don't know if you are being intentionally inaccurate in describing reality or do not actually perceive it correctly. Falling behind in terms of training is bad. Period. If anyone lacks any proof that training is valuable, you need look no further than the fact that it has been, and still is, the only commodity VIP gets you. Having 3 AT/Class training slots instead of 1 was added-value for a reason...

I won't even comment on the suggestion that logging in every 3, 6, 9, 12, whatever amount of time measured in hours and not days is anything but inconvenient, a turn off, and for some people, impossible. Apps will make this ALMOST a non-issue, but still not entirely unless you never sleep/work (some of us work in secure facilities and cannot use our cellphones for 8-12 hours at a time) IF the app and option is available to non-VIP, something past statements have intimated would not be the case. A very basic examination of publicly available stats from the industry will illustrate the differences in scale between the numbers of what can be called hardcore or serious and casual gamers. Again, we don't need to speak theoretically about what is required to maintain a game like CF when it comes to a customer base. We know this all too well from direct experience.

Again, I will have VIP, probably on multiple accounts. However my position of privilege that allows me to spend 15/30/45$ a month on a recurring basis for a game doesn't blind me to the fact that I am in the minority. You don't need to look very hard to find people who do not or cannot play games with a monthly subscription fee. This method of adding value to VIP by also reducing the value of non-VIP - and if you do not see that this is what is being done, I can make any number of simple analogies to existing real-world systems which will make it crystal clear - amounts to a fundamental change in the nature of the game, where the training mechanic is such a crucial part.

I would much rather they give the game a monthly subscription than do something like this. It would avoid a significant drop in player retention and activity past the initial few months. If someone is unable to conceive of ways to add value to VIP that do not penalize the non-VIP players (which also penalizes the VIP players in a game like CF BTW), I respectfully submit you are through no fault of your own caught in a perception bubble, or quite simply not thinking hard or long enough about it.

85% of the posts on this topic are nonsense. Some of the statements here are downright laughable. Where have these people been for the last 20 years?

Edited by Anthrage

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2 minutes ago, chodie said:

ITT: People upset to learn that a company is in the business of making money. 

It's not about making money. It's about how to make money the best.

Let's encourage them with better ideas instead of snarkiness, readysetgo. 


Free Ginko.

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Just now, Orleans said:

It's not about making money. It's about how to make money the best.

Let's encourage them with better ideas instead of snarkiness, readysetgo. 

I've yet to see a VIP suggestion that isn't somewhat frivolous that likely wouldn't bring in the profits needed.

This change is clear that it does enough that would get some to pay for it. Doesn't make it the best or right way to do it, but it will work as intended regardless of the consequences.

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The new skill system is alright.  Just need to tweak it so that VIP can have the next node point queued.  Might as well give VIP a real perk. 

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It would be perfect if non-VIP could queue skills a maximum of 24 hours in advance. There needs to be some sort of buffer.

I think it's necessary to... not piss people off?

Multi-accounting non-VIP would be still be mitigated, while non-VIP players would be kept happy. The best of both worlds.

Edited by Cicaeda
a word

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6 minutes ago, Anthrage said:

Where have these people been for the last 20 years?

Looking at the game market as a whole, my guess is playing/paying for very similar things in a wide variety of products.

Pay for advantage/convenience is the standard. How far that dips into the P2W side of things is debatable, but most profitable games seems to fully embrace such a model. Why ACE or CF would be different, especially looking at what they've already offered for sale is confusing to me.

Going full sub is an option, but that's the ultimate paywall. At least this gives alternatives.

Edited by APE

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I already said what I would pay for, of the ideas proposed: 

  1. Priority login queues for campaign worlds
  2. A longer queue and more grace periods for skill training
  3. More archetype training

There are probably dozens of other ways to sweeten VIP, introducing a painful system is not necessary. I'm with the others who would prefer a required membership to this system.

Just please don't require us to pay domestic workers to do our passive skill training, lest we impact our lives or travel. 

Edited by Orleans

Free Ginko.

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20 minutes ago, canvox said:

I play league of legends casually which means i don't try to win I just stand in the river roleplaying

 

11 minutes ago, APE said:

Sounds about right.

Okay, I think I figured out the problem. You seem to be asserting that "casual" means "roleplayers only" or "otherwise not invested in being able to succeed within the confines of 'normal' gameplay," while "competitive" evidently means "the actual target audience for the game."

In the interest of this not getting even further off course than it already is, let me try to clarify.

"Casual" versus "competitive," or more often "hardcore," isn't, for the purposes of identifying player demographics, a measure of how much of the content someone engages with. That can be part of it, but usually the biggest single factor that determines whether a player is "casual" or not is how much time they spend logged into the game in a given time frame, usually a week or a month.

So when we say "casual players," we generally don't mean "exclusive roleplayers" or other super-niche groups that may or may not exist at all within this community - we just mean the people who only have an hour or two a day to dedicate to it. Outside of this argument in particular, this is also what most developers mean by "casual players." The hardcore players only play this game and spend a significant amount of time each day doing so. Casual players log in for a couple minutes to a couple hours and sometimes miss days.

If you are arguing about a different definition of "casual" players, then expect this disagreement to continue forever, because you're having a totally different argument from anyone else here.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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1 minute ago, Cicaeda said:

It would be perfect if non-VIP could queue skills a maximum of 24 hours in advance.

I think it's necessary to... not piss people off?

Multi-accounting non-VIP would be still be mitigated, while non-VIP players would be kept happy. The best of both worlds

Thank-you Cicaeda, with 7 posts, for proving the final point in my last post. I don't know how much time you spent on this idea, but it demonstrates 'best of both world' options can be summoned from the ether...

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Just now, Orleans said:

It's not about making money. It's about how to make money the best.

Let's encourage them with better ideas instead of snarkiness, readysetgo. 

Or we can formulate hypothetical situations on which to preemptively judge something we haven't tried and then fill 10 pages arguing about the "maybes" we came up with in our heads.  

I prefer to try it out before knocking it but to each their own. 


Hg0LXwa.png

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, APE said:

No doubt, but people actually do just as you said.

Striving to be the "best" in a competitive game is not the same as trying to win.

I try to win but have no wish to invest what is necessary to reach the top.

Which is why I find it odd people worried about "casual" players being left behind when that is what it means to be a casual. Being the best or worrying about a few percents here and there shouldn't be a high priority.

Yeah the "investment to be the best" means the accumulation of skills and knowledge through practice and analysis, not spending fifteen american dollars, ya goofball.

Weird flavors of hill-dying in this thread:
1) If you're not playing 18 hours a day why do you even care if you succeed at your goals?
2) If you can't dedicate $180/year or 12 hours/day to this game you're barely even a person
3) Player retention is bad for business, actually

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3 minutes ago, APE said:

Does look like P2W and depending on your definition, is so. Regardless, he should know this going into the game and deciding to VIP or not. I'm not saying this decision is "right" or the "best" way to go about it but I understand it and don't believe it will destroy CF's future.

I stated that being able to train 3 ATs with VIP was P2W and generally got the consensus that I was wrong. Options =/= P2W. Seems pretty much the same to me.

Fact remains that the typical human is capable of logging in and training skills be it once or five times a day. It is a bit excessive on the low end, but isn't for all Pips nor Tiers.

Likely ACE will make some adjustments, but like almost every change I've seen on here, people reacting without all the context. As a big what if, they add an app or web based training option. Assume the issue would decrease quite a lot. Both of which ACE has said they want to do, then again they could be VIP only as well...

In the end, money is going to impact gameplay no matter what and people looking for a "fair" PVP game are going to be looking for a long time.

Let me be crystal clear, I don't mind a bit of appearance of pay to win. Everyone has a threshold, mine is fairly tolerant as frankly all games have it if only because people who pay for better rigs and connections have an advantage anyway.

The biggest issue is the ruining of the early game experience for players.  At the very time in other MMO games play cycle, where levels come easy to the tune of several in the first sessions, and skills improve multiple times in the early sessions, this design will have the exact opposite effect.  Players refusing to part with a bit of extra money, will be experiencing a total early game stall out in terms of skills.  Remember the first three general skills for almost ALL new players that are not plugged into a group is going to be about getting apples out of trees out of simple necessity. Currently that represents 9 days of training.  This change makes that 9 days stretch out over 15 or more, even if you are the kind of player that plays every day but only once.

You are basically holding new players heads underwater until they either drown or give in a buy a snorkel.

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3 minutes ago, chodie said:

Or we can formulate hypothetical situations on which to preemptively judge something we haven't tried and then fill 10 pages arguing about the "maybes" we came up with in our heads.  

I prefer to try it out before knocking it but to each their own. 

I don't need to bite into a poorly made socks sandwich to know it tastes bad.

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11 minutes ago, Cicaeda said:

It would be perfect if non-VIP could queue skills a maximum of 24 hours in advance. There needs to be some sort of buffer.

I think it's necessary to... not piss people off?

Multi-accounting non-VIP would be still be mitigated, while non-VIP players would be kept happy. The best of both worlds

This would be a good fix. Having to log everyday is pretty simple, even if you log only to manage the skills.

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1 minute ago, canvox said:

Yeah the "investment to be the best" means the accumulation of skills and knowledge through practice and analysis, not spending fifteen american dollars, ya goofball.

Weird flavors of hill-dying in this thread:
1) If you're not playing 18 hours a day why do you even care if you succeed at your goals?
2) If you can't dedicate $180/year or 12 hours/day to this game you're barely even a person
3) Player retention is bad for business, actually

I think part of where he's coming from is that he sees skill training as so worthless to character progression as to not be relevant at all.

If he winds up being right and skill training is so irrelevant that the fact that two players with identical time spent in game will be exponentially further apart from each other in skill line progression, then his argument will be at least somewhat valid. However, if that is true, there will be some other fairly big problems that need addressing on the table.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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4 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Let me be crystal clear, I don't mind a bit of appearance of pay to win. Everyone has a threshold, mine is fairly tolerant as frankly all games have it if only because people who pay for better rigs and connections have an advantage anyway.

Not to mention that you're 'paying' with something, be it time or money.

The really interesting thing about Crowfall are the impermanent campaign worlds and import restrictions. It should help to resolve some of the major issues in multiplayer persistent strategy games. 

It creates an environment where customization and survival matter, but skill is king. Time and money invested do not directly correlate to power if you're losing or 'gifting' it away immediately. 

Edited by Orleans

Free Ginko.

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That's what's so crazy about the system as announced: getting players to log in daily is good for player retention, kicking them in the hooligan is bad for player retention.  How'd we end up with a system that kicks non-VIP in the hooligan and then also regularly gives them 3 days of nothing?

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