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Skill mechanics - Official discussion thread

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2 minutes ago, goose said:

Okay, I think I figured out the problem.

 

9 minutes ago, APE said:

Striving to be the "best" in a competitive game is not the same as trying to win.

I try to win but have no wish to invest what is necessary to reach the top.

Which is why I find it odd people worried about "casual" players being left behind when that is what it means to be a casual. Being the best or worrying about a few percents here and there shouldn't be a high priority.

Do roleplayers exist in gaming anymore? :rolleyes:

I quoted myself for some clarity.

I'm fairly casual these days. Winning is a goal, but I know it will be hard due to my commitment limitations.

Joe Gamer being 5% higher in a stat has little value to me as I'm not making excel sheets and min/maxing to 5 am everyday. 

Hence, why this isn't a big deal to me.

I'll have VIP since I have a lot for one, but also I'm an adult with a job and I'm lazy. If they add an app or something that makes non-VIP easier, I'll probably not pay for it without other added value perks.

I'm glad so many are trying to defend the all the casuals of the world, but maybe they should speak up first and say they need help? So many "they won't like it, game is doomed, here's no proof" comments.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, canvox said:

Yeah the "investment to be the best" means the accumulation of skills and knowledge through practice and analysis, not spending fifteen american dollars, ya goofball.

Weird flavors of hill-dying in this thread:
1) If you're not playing 18 hours a day why do you even care if you succeed at your goals?
2) If you can't dedicate $180/year or 12 hours/day to this game you're barely even a person
3) Player retention is bad for business, actually

Yet during all that time accumulating skills, knowledge, practicing and analyzing people won't find the time to click a few buttons.

OMG I slept through Tier 2 Pip 3, game over. Uninstall.

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1 minute ago, APE said:

 

Do roleplayers exist in gaming anymore? :rolleyes:

I quoted myself for some clarity.

I'm fairly casual these days. Winning is a goal, but I know it will be hard due to my commitment limitations.

Joe Gamer being 5% higher in a stat has little value to me as I'm not making excel sheets and min/maxing to 5 am everyday. 

Hence, why this isn't a big deal to me.

I'll have VIP since I have a lot for one, but also I'm an adult with a job and I'm lazy. If they add an app or something that makes non-VIP easier, I'll probably not pay for it without other added value perks.

I'm glad so many are trying to defend the all the casuals of the world, but maybe they should speak up first and say they need help? So many "they won't like it, game is doomed, here's no proof" comments.

 

 

How about 5 extra experimental pips, or 5 more critical harvest pips?

If you really don't care about the training, that it has "little value", why are you even in this discussion?  This is obviously not the kind of content you come to the game for, so how about you leave discussion to those of us that actually do care about this kind of content, no matter how small the differences are?

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4 minutes ago, canvox said:

That's what's so crazy about the system as announced: getting players to log in daily is good for player retention, kicking them in the hooligan is bad for player retention.  How'd we end up with a system that kicks non-VIP in the hooligan and then also regularly gives them 3 days of nothing?

It might have gone something like this: 

Manager: "We need to make VIP more valuable and discourage people from buying a million one-time accounts. Joe, you're up next, let me know tomorrow how you'd like to do this?"

Joe, the following day: "Uhh, how about we have Linda add this in as a requirement to the passive skill training rework she's doing. Shouldn't add much time at all. Then I can work on this new shiny thing."

Ticket gets created, and Linda half-heartedly implements an idea that hasn't been discussed or vetted. By the time the Manager realizes what he ends up with, it's too late to push back for more time, and the product ships as written. 

As a leader, sometimes you make a mistake when you assign responsibility and tasks. Sometimes there is a disconnect in communication, or maybe you have knowledge required for successful completion of the task that hasn't been conveyed. 

This stuff is hard, but they aren't that far off. It will get better. 

Important thing is that they have good ideas, they're making progress, and building an awesome game!

If people are quitting over stuff like this, it's good riddance, really. This is still an alpha. If the game launches with flaws like this... that will be more problematic. 


Free Ginko.

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12 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Remember the first three general skills for almost ALL new players that are not plugged into a group is going to be about getting apples out of trees out of simple necessity. Currently that represents 9 days of training.

If people read forums and think the game is P2W or Sub Mandatory, this will be a bigger nail than this imo. If those types of things aren't ironed out, game will likely have few trying out Apple Harvester 101.

1 minute ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

How about 5 extra experimental pips, or 5 more critical harvest pips?

If you really don't care about the training, that it has "little value", why are you even in this discussion?  This is obviously not the kind of content you come to the game for, so how about you leave discussion to those of us that actually do care about this kind of content, no matter how small the differences are?

As I said, I hope they do a nice overhaul of the skill trees as some are definitely a bit wonky in time and impact.

I'm fine right where I am, but thanks.

I care about mechanics and the game's future or I wouldn't be wasting my time responding to words on the internet. If you need to remove yourself from my discussion, feel free.

If you care that much about incremental differences, hopefully you pay VIP and don't forget to train. I've yet to see anything that shows a casual or average player would refuse to play the game because of such things. Looking at the market, seems like more often then not, players are given more the more they pay. ACE isn't reinventing the wheel.

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1 minute ago, APE said:

If people read forums and think the game is P2W or Sub Mandatory, this will be a bigger nail than this imo. If those types of things aren't ironed out, game will likely have few trying out Apple Harvester 101.

As I said, I hope they do a nice overhaul of the skill trees as some are definitely a bit wonky in time and impact.

I'm fine right where I am, but thanks.

I care about mechanics and the game's future or I wouldn't be wasting my time responding to words on the internet. If you need to remove yourself from my discussion, feel free.

If you care that much about incremental differences, hopefully you pay VIP and don't forget to train. I've yet to see anything that shows a casual or average player would refuse to play the game because of such things. Looking at the market, seems like more often then not, players are given more the more they pay. ACE isn't reinventing the wheel.

If you look at my forum badge, you can see I'm not the type of person to let a few bucks keep me from VIP.  VIP is not a barrier, and I will pay for any advantage I can possibly get.

I'm not fighting this fight for me, I'm fighting because I honestly think it will make for such a poorly made socksty early game experience that ACE will lose significant traction and revenue, and seriously hurt the game's long term prospects. I think your position of small increments of skill not mattering, is equally short sighted.  

Being a massive killer/achiever type, I am exactly the kind of person that cares about every little stat and advantage, and if I thought it took money to be competitive, and was the type of person that bothered, I would never purchase crowfall with a training mechanic like that in place.

If CF was F2P, I would give it a shot to see if the fun factor overcame the pay to win aspects.  Seeing as it's B2P, followed by even possible P2W, it wouldn't stand a chance of getting my first money, let alone continued support.

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33 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I don't need to bite into a poorly made socks sandwich to know it tastes bad.

Luckily for us no one is asking that we eat poorly made socks, only that we press a few buttons. 


Hg0LXwa.png

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, APE said:

If people read forums and think the game is P2W or Sub Mandatory, this will be a bigger nail than this imo. If those types of things aren't ironed out, game will likely have few trying out Apple Harvester 101.

As I said, I hope they do a nice overhaul of the skill trees as some are definitely a bit wonky in time and impact.

I'm fine right where I am, but thanks.

I care about mechanics and the game's future or I wouldn't be wasting my time responding to words on the internet. If you need to remove yourself from my discussion, feel free.

If you care that much about incremental differences, hopefully you pay VIP and don't forget to train. I've yet to see anything that shows a casual or average player would refuse to play the game because of such things. Looking at the market, seems like more often then not, players are given more the more they pay. ACE isn't reinventing the wheel.

I really want to disagree with this vehemently, especially since you're making some grandiose claims about the non-existence of data that very much DOES exist, but at the same time I am not willing to take the time required to pull up any of the aforementioned examples of data just to appease someone who doesn't seem to have a horse in this race.

As you said, you're fine right where you are and don't see this as a problematic change. It's all well and good that you care about mechanics and the game's future, but that doesn't actually explain why you're engaging in this discussion. If you don't think there's a problem, "I want to make sure the game succeeds" is kind of a nonsense defense of your participation.

34 minutes ago, APE said:

Do roleplayers exist in gaming anymore? :rolleyes:

I quoted myself for some clarity.

I'm fairly casual these days. Winning is a goal, but I know it will be hard due to my commitment limitations.

Joe Gamer being 5% higher in a stat has little value to me as I'm not making excel sheets and min/maxing to 5 am everyday. 

Hence, why this isn't a big deal to me.

I'll have VIP since I have a lot for one, but also I'm an adult with a job and I'm lazy. If they add an app or something that makes non-VIP easier, I'll probably not pay for it without other added value perks.

I'm glad so many are trying to defend the all the casuals of the world, but maybe they should speak up first and say they need help? So many "they won't like it, game is doomed, here's no proof" comments.

Okay, I guess I'll amend my position. You're arguing from a purely anecdotal false premise. Not sure if that's better or worse than a garden variety misunderstanding, though.

Edited by goose

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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Trying to delete because I merged with post above. confusion ensued.

Edit: THIS is why I sometimes post consecutive strings of posts. If a mod can remove this, that'd be awesome. Or else I'll un-merge the posts, I guess?

Edited by goose
...merged with previous post?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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8 minutes ago, chodie said:

Luckily for us no one is asking that we eat poorly made socks, only that we press a few buttons. 

Heh, lets see what "only" changing skills looks like when you don't actually want to play.

  1. Go to whatever room holds your computer.
  2. Boot up, and wait. 
  3. Select your password manager file (you have one of those don't you?)
  4. Open the crowfall client.
  5. Find your phone and your 2FA app, (you do want to protect your account don't you?)
  6. Login
  7. Launch
  8. Login again 
  9. Look at your skills.
  10. Navigate the trees and select the ones you want.
  11. Set a timer for the next time you need to do all this.
  12. Power everything down.

Done.

Yea, that's a terrific game experience. No poorly made socks pointless time waster there at all.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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3 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

If you look at my forum badge, you can see I'm not the type of person to let a few bucks keep me from VIP.  VIP is not a barrier, and I will pay for any advantage I can possibly get.

I'm not fighting this fight for me, I'm fighting because I honestly think it will make for such a poorly made socksty early game experience that ACE will lose significant traction and revenue, and seriously hurt the game's long term prospects. I think your position of small increments of skill not mattering, is equally short sighted.  

Being a massive killer/achiever type, I am exactly the kind of person that cares about every little stat and advantage, and if I thought it took money to be competitive, and was the type of person that bothered, I would never purchase crowfall with a training mechanic like that in place.

If CF was F2P, I would give it a shot to see if the fun factor overcame the pay to win aspects.  Seeing as it's B2P, followed by even possible P2W, it wouldn't stand a chance of getting my first money, let alone continued support.

Which is your opinion and you are entitled to it. For me, it's too early too tell and from my experience, things like this aren't really a huge deal, devs adapt based on feedback/retention, and games continue or not based on multiple factors.

My forum badge says I don't care how much money people spend, I want a good game. If this ends up hurting, I hope they change it. For now, I'm okay.

Simply don't believe one thing announced at this point in development seals the deal one way or another for the game as a whole.

Seems short sighted for anyone to write the game off before even seeing it completed. Much like those up in arms about gender or race/AT locking. OMG! What it changed? The game isn't 100% garbage and doomed? Lots of things can change and obviously continue to.

Come release with the full picture, people can make their decisions and ACE will do what they need to.

I pretend to know the future, but honestly I don't.

As I've stated, I just don't see casual/average folks too upset about potentially losing out on a few stat points. Just as I don't see them spending $1k+ on a unfinished video game.

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6 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

that's a terrific game experience. No poorly made socks pointless time waster there at all.

If only "dailies" didn't exist and tons of people didn't do them mindlessly every day for whatever pointless reward in whatever pointless game.

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1 minute ago, APE said:

If only "dailies" didn't exist and tons of people didn't do them mindlessly every day for whatever pointless reward in whatever pointless game.

Dailies are a reward system. This is a punishment system.

Very different.

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8 minutes ago, Cicaeda said:

Dailies are a reward system. This is a punishment system.

Very different.

How are they different?


IhhQKY6.gif

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The effect on player psychology.

Logging in every day to receive a reward makes the player feel good and want to keep playing.

Logging in every day to avoid a punishment makes the player irritated and want to stop playing.

Edited by Cicaeda

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15 minutes ago, goose said:

As you said, you're fine right where you are and don't see this as a problematic change. It's all well and good that you care about mechanics and the game's future, but that doesn't actually explain why you're engaging in this discussion. If you don't think there's a problem, "I want to make sure the game succeeds" is kind of a nonsense defense of your participation.

No this is problematic, however, just because it is a problem for some, doesn't mean it can't/won't work. Same could be said for any number of dev decisions. I've left many games over problems I've personally had that plenty of others are just fine with. Pretty sure we all have.

I'm engaging because I want to state my views and people respond so I respond and so on. Feel free to stop responding to me.

Last I checked the forums aren't only for those that view things one way or another.

Just as you are saying you disagree, I'm saying I don't. If devs actually care, they should have a variety of views. Not just one side patting each other on the back.

This change does impact me and my decision to have VIP or not and I want the devs to know it doesn't stop me from doing so.

Beyond that, people are trying to "win" some imaginary debate apparently.

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Everyone going nuts... 

 

Here I am with a smartphone, the only downtime I have is when I'll be asleep. Which with proper time management. I doubt will be that super high. Especially once you get past tier 1 nodes. Got a pip that'll pop in a few hours, swap to a secondary node that has enough time occupy the time. There is no downfall to swapping skills.

So realistically I would probably on avg cut down my lost training time to about 2hrs a day on average, again especially once you get past tier 1 nodes. So roughly 450ish hours a year if that. Which would be a couple of nodes behind. I honestly Don't see a gap of that size being too big for a normal character to bypass with gear and player skill.

And where I'll save close to $200 dollars.  Ehhh I dont mind if another person has an extra 10ap or .2 less seconds of being knockdown that I'll get within a day or two. 

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This is a REALLY nice improvement on the skill system. I still feel like its FAR to linear though.. If I am a new player and I want to become really good at harvesting, I have to walk the same path 99% of the other Harvesters have ALREADY walked for a LONG TIME just to get to a point where I can actually start to specialize.

I would STRONGLY encourage you guys to make these trees much more "short and fat" rather than "long and skinny". I would be more of a fan of each TYPE of thing having its own skill tree, rather than you trudging through various "basic" skill trees for days, if not weeks before you get to any level of customization... 

So rather than "combat basics" type of thing, and then towards the end you start having weapon speciality. Id rather see something where like "2H Axes" has its OWN TREE that I could start from DAY 1 of training. This way as a "combat specialist" I am not walking the SAME PATH other combat specialists already walked for a month just to get some "specialization"...

Or if I wanted to be REALLY good at mining a certain type of Ore for instance... I should be able to start THAT specialization from day 1. Not do tons of basic harvesting -> mining -> Specific Ore Mining etc.

Thats my feedback anyways. Love the new 1-5 pip thing. Also I am a FAN of the non-VIP que system. If you want no VIP, you can still train longer skills at night. Like a higher tier skill will take a LONG time to process - so I am cool with this. Its "pay for convenience" more than "P2W" and I like it. 

Would be interesting to have a PC "gateway" or "portal" you can log into and manage skills there as well - or even a phone app! Just another few ideas. This could be either VIP restricted as well, or free to enable players to train skills "on the go". The VIP advantage would be "you dont get punished if you forget" rather than now - the non VIP issue is that if you are not home and able to LOG IN you lose progress....

Overall - good change! Still could be better though. Keep up the good work guys!

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