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Skill mechanics - Official discussion thread

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Let me ask everyone here a simple question. Setting aside the queuing question, how many of you found the 1-100 system unsatisfying, and find the pip system itself necessary to give you a desired level of feedback on your skill-training? Was this an issue for you, would you knowingly trade the complexity pips introduce for this feedback?

I suspect, and perhaps we will get a sense with some responses, that the majority of people do not give a flying custard about feedback of this sort. I also suspect that non-VIP players would be perfectly happy to trade not having to login at the outlined times and frequency for giving VIP members something even more valuable than freedom from that inconvenience.

If both of those things are true - and I would be really surprised if they were not - why in god's green earth waste the dev time on something like this, and not just do something else that doesn't hurt anyone but still achieves the goal of driving VIP sales? Is it really the case that this was the only, or even best, idea for doing that? I genuinely want to know.

Edited by Anthrage

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11 minutes ago, Anthrage said:

Let me ask everyone here a simple question. Setting aside the queuing question, how many of you found the 1-100 system unsatisfying, and find the pip system itself necessary to give you a desired level of feedback on your skill-training? Was this an issue for you, would you knowingly trade the complexity pips introduce for this feedback?

I suspect, and perhaps we will get a sense with some responses, that the majority of people do not give a flying custard about feedback of this sort. I also suspect that non-VIP players would be perfectly happy to trade not having to login at the outlined times and frequency for giving VIP members something even more valuable than freedom from that inconvenience.

If both of those things are true - and I would be really surprised if they were not - why in god's green earth waste the dev time on something like this, and not just do something else that doesn't hurt anyone but still achieves the goal of driving VIP sales? Is it really the case that this was the only, or even best, idea for doing that? I genuinely want to know.

I see where they are coming from. Nobody ever felt happy to see that your skill lvled 1 point.

"Sweet! Now i got more 0.05% critical chance! Hell yeah!"

^Said nobody ever.

At least now you feel happy to see your skill lvling. I understand that it is all a matter of perception, and having to wait to see results may be worse overall but i kinda like it. It is just like any other lvling system, you get points to use in your character after hitting 100% in the exp bar and not 1 str at 10%, 1 spd at 20% etc., you just get everything at once.

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15 hours ago, chodie said:

ITT: People upset to learn that a company is in the business of making money. 

This is a stupid hogwash non-argument. No one here wants the company to not make money. I want ACE to make billions of dollars (especially since I'm an investor, but even without that I just want to see them rewarded for making a good game... assuming the game is as good as it's shaping up to be).

But that doesn't mean we have to just accept any payment method they ask for. They could make it so that you have to pay an hourly fee to play the game. People would be pretty upset. But damn them, the company is just trying to make money! Or they could let you pay money to just instantly capture an opponent's keep. People would definitely pay for that! It's totally okay though. Don't complain! The company is just in the business of making money.

Honestly, the reason most of us are arguing here is because we believe this is going to lead to less players which means less money for ACE. There are plenty of better ways to do this that would make ACE more money.


Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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10 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

I see where they are coming from. Nobody ever felt happy to see that your skill lvled 1 point.

"Sweet! Now i got more 0.05% critical chance! Hell yeah!"

^Said nobody ever.

At least now you feel happy to see your skill lvling. I understand that it is all a matter of perception, and having to wait to see results may be worse overall but i kinda like it. It is just like any other lvling system, you get points to use in your character after hitting 100% in the exp bar and not 1 str at 10%, 1 spd at 20% etc., you just get everything at once.

So you would trade this new perception for having to log in at intervals measured in hours in order to keep that training moving along? It seems to be that in general, we are unquestionably going to have traded the perception of not advancing, for ACTUALLY not advancing due to missed training. This is absolutely undeniable, it will occur, at some frequency, with this system. For this reason and others I find the perception or feedback element of the justification of this to be false, and even ludicrous.

I think the actual justification for this, apart from driving VIP-sales, is that it dovetails with the sub-100% completion node-advancement. If your pips represent plateaus of partial completion, it is much easier to both calculate and visualize when you can advance - you have discrete quanta of percentages - 20, 40, 60, 80 and 100. Again, something that could be done without the queuing hassle, with added value for VIP being shifted to something that is better for everyone.

EDIT: A point I feel is important to make. Not just better, but SAFER.

Edited by Anthrage

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9 minutes ago, Anthrage said:

So you would trade this new perception for having to log in at intervals measured in hours in order to keep that training moving along? It seems to be that in general, we are unquestionably going to have traded the perception of not advancing, with ACTUALLY not advancing due to missed training. This is absolutely undeniable, it will occur. For this reason and others I find the perception or feedback element of the justification of this to be false, and even ludicrous.

I think the more like actual justification for this, apart from driving VIP-sales, is that it dovetails with the sub-100% completion node-advancement. If your pips represent plateaus of partial completion, it is much easier to both calculate and visualize when you can advance - you have discrete quanta of percentages - 20, 40, 60, 80 and 100. Again, something that could be done without the queuing hassle, with valuing being shifted to something better for everyone.

Nonononono... I am talking about they moving from 1-100 to 1-5.

My bad, i thought you was talking about they introducing the 5 pips. I totally agree with the VIP thing, should just go away. All it did was make me wary of ACE (sorry ACE that is how serious that is), you just dont touch on that kind of thing.

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8 hours ago, Teufel said:

The article stated that VIP would continue to train pips until the 5th pip was trained, and then and only then would a VIP account have to change training.  With a rank 1 skill that tranlates to 3 days before you would have to login and change training.   Where as the non-VIP would have to change skills after 2.39hr, then again after 4.67hr, and then again after another 9.14hr and 17.94hrs and finally for the last time they would have to change after 35.2hrs.  The non-VIP is going to have to micro-manage their times, especially considering ACE is changing where not all skills will need 5 pips in order to move on down the linear skill path.  So in the previous where a player might get a 35 hour break from not micro-managing, they probably won't, because they will go right back into  Pip1 - 2.39hr  Pip2 - 4.67hr Pip3 - 9.14hr Pip4 - 17.94hr.  So realistically the non-VIP players will have to be watching their account at sub-optimal times.

So far most people have brought up sleep as the number one reason to miss training, but what about players that work full time?  That is typically another 8-10 hours (some of us commute over 45 min each way) of being away where they won't be able to log in to their computer and change skills; oh wait you say there will be an app to change skills, yeah isn't that supposed to be a VIP perk!

 

I hope that what was announced today is only the start.  It sounds like this is just the how skills are earned update, not the how skill tree works update.

For all of you that don't see the problem read that again really slowly.

Who is the least likely to want to pay for VIP? The casual weekend player.

Who is going to be least likely to bother to log in to switch training between sessions? The casual weekend player.

Who is most negatively impacted by this change? The casual weekend player.

What does that do to this objective and claim about the game design?

Quote

Skills advance passively, over-time. We don’t require you to “grind monsters” or repeat simple tasks to increase your skill levels.

...

Players will then begin to earn experience points (XP) in the selected skill(s) in real world time – even when they aren’t online.

...

In effect, your characters keep advancing while you do things like sleep or go to work.You won’t be at a numerical disadvantage versus other players just because they have more time to invest in the game than you do.

So for the non-VIP player, monsters have been switched to logins.

For the non-VIP player, the second point is largely moot.  May as well just make the skills be a "you can select one pip each day, every time you log in for the first time" mechanic, because that is exactly what it has essentially become for the non-VIP players.

For the non-VIP player, you will be at a numerical disadvantage versus other players. Not JUST because they have more time to invest, but also because they put in more money.

This change basically needs to have a caveat added to the top of this entire portion of the FAQ. "If your VIP".

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Why not take skill training one step further? Let VIP queue up to say 90 days of skill training (or more, pick something long, perhaps 5 skills), and let non VIP players train from 0-5 pips in a given skill (your current VIP plan). This seems a lot more reasonable and still provides enough incentive to pick up VIP. 

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3 hours ago, Anthrage said:

Let me ask everyone here a simple question. Setting aside the queuing question, how many of you found the 1-100 system unsatisfying, and find the pip system itself necessary to give you a desired level of feedback on your skill-training? Was this an issue for you, would you knowingly trade the complexity pips introduce for this feedback?

I suspect, and perhaps we will get a sense with some responses, that the majority of people do not give a flying custard about feedback of this sort. I also suspect that non-VIP players would be perfectly happy to trade not having to login at the outlined times and frequency for giving VIP members something even more valuable than freedom from that inconvenience.

If both of those things are true - and I would be really surprised if they were not - why in god's green earth waste the dev time on something like this, and not just do something else that doesn't hurt anyone but still achieves the goal of driving VIP sales? Is it really the case that this was the only, or even best, idea for doing that? I genuinely want to know.

Your right.

I think this change alters the feeling of satisfaction not one iota in regards to scale.  The 3-4 pips to move forward maybe, so if pips its development time were needed to facilitate that then fine, but simply dividing the skill jumps into even chunks was not the perception problem they think it was.

99% of the players during the test saw large jumps in skills between sessions anyway.  You would log out on Sunday, and come back Friday, and see that your Skill X had jumped the appropriate 63.5% or whatever.  This has the exact same impact on your psyche, that of no sense of progress because you can't realistically be expected to feel the difference with the kinds of very small increments the skill tree provides.

Really that part of the change did nothing.  I find it weird that ACE even thinks it will have an impact, or that the core problem was smaller increments, when the majority of training is done offline and isn't experienced directly anyway.

That's another potential thing that time banking training could help solve.  If you came back after a week or two and were able to select all your training pips that you banked, it would feel much better than simply looking at the tree and going "meh", whatever.

It's a shame they put so much stock in this change fixing all the problems, since it looks like it is going to create even more without really solving anything. Perhaps the 3-4 pip thing will be a big improvement, but I don't think it will have the impact they were hopping for.

 

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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In my opinion the 5 pip system change is a waste of resources as it wasn't a big enough problem to do an overhaul and it seems like change for the sake of change to me.

 

The non VIP nerf makes sense to me. Having to log on once a day or so to change skills wasn't really annoying. Having to log on 3 times a day to just select skills now that is annoying. Perhaps a few more annoying mechanics like that and some people will leave and the rest will get VIPs,

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I'm not reading 10 more pages of replies but I believe it is this simple.

WE log into these forums on Tuesday and Thursday to see in what way the game has improved.

Sometimes we get something awesome, most times we get something minor, (which is fine, not all news drops can be the disc system or splitting race/class) and often we get something flavor related (art concepts, behind the scenes etc).

This time we got something that simply makes the game less fun. For the first time in a while I feel like enjoying the game the way I like is directly tied to $.

Just make the game subscription based. Give each account 3-5 class trains with the option to buy more. Keep universal skills trains at one still. Choice still matters, it's just your universal skills are account defining now.


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10 minutes ago, Yoink said:

Just make the game subscription based

While I, more than most people, would have preferred a required sub model just to avoid say alt account issues and concerns about financial stability over time...

its going to be near to impossible for them to do that (even if they wanted to) at this point when it was pitched as sub free on kickstarter....

jLyq7FJ.png

 

Edited by Tinnis

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I think the whole advancement model is crap.

It is my least favorite part of the game.

I would rather have a point pool that grows over time a d the ability to boost any stat I want or specialize in any stat I want .

 

the whole system doesn't make any sense at all as far as why you need to complete one skill before another


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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Visual update looks really good.

Queue system sounds god awful. Wasn't the point of the passive skill training to help to keep people on similar power level?

I usually work long hours (~11 to 24 hour shifts). With this skill system you are saying that:

1. I should start keeping countdown timer on my phone.

2. Start taking my laptop to work.

3. Start taking breaks from work to boot up my laptop just to queue up next skill.

Or i should start sharing my account with other people. Otherwise i will lose 1-24 hours of training time every time i have a skill that is soon going to be ready and i will constantly fall behind in my skills form everyone who actually can regularly log on.

What sounds even worse is when skills start finishing in awkward hours. Should i start disturbing my sleep schedule to wake up in middle of the night just to continue training when the next pip or full skill decides to finish 4 am?

This sounds just strait forward worse than almost every other MMO i have played. In every other MMO where skills have some sort of caps i may not be the 1st guy maxing them out, but at least i usually can find a weekend every now and then just to power level, grind and catch up with people who are already done. At the end i still at some point manage to get on the even play field with everyone else.

On this system i'm going to constantly fall behind on rapid rate. Every time a skill is about to finish and i have to go on a 24 hour shift i'm falling behind by a day worth of training.

Sadly this sounds like a huge downgrade from what Shadowbane used to be. I guess we will see how it plays out when people get their hands on it. If it really is as bad as it sounds and the system stays like this i'm not sure how long i manage to force myself to suffer before completely giving up.

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People acting like this is the end of the world lol. It's really not THAT big of a deal that you need to login more often to update your skill trains. I mean, it's inconvenient I suppose but you're only going to be really disadvantaged during the beginning skill trains that are much faster that later skill trains. Once everyone gets through basic training it's not going to have a huge impact either way imo because the training times are much longer. 

But I'm sure the negative posts on this thread will continue for another 14 pages either way.  

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This thread is/was just awful. 

The fact that the same 5 people keep citing that basically the non-subscription-paying buy-once player community won't tolerate this indignant outrage of a change.... clearly forgot to bring the other hundred or thousand players who don't tolerate it with them. I saw numerous examples of players touting they are "fighting for the little guy!", who won't play Crowfall because this system will perpetually put him at a disadvantage! 

The problem is, its the same 5 people saying this same thing over and over. Where is the general community outrage at this? All this thread seems to have done is allowed these same people to yell really loudly how unhappy they are with the change.

The fact is that most MMO players tend to accept they won't be in the top 1% of players right off the bat; for the reasons you've already cited... work... life...etc. Most MMO players are probably very used to this fact that when games launch, they won't be able to grind to the end game right at the start, though they DO stick around as long as they can to minimize the difference. Most players are very understanding of the fact that some people generally have more free time than they do. They mock them and call them 'basement dwellers' or 'neckbeards' or any number of derogatory terms to make themselves feel better about not being in that top 1%. They make peace with it.

The fact that some of you are stating this is a slippery slope decision, that instead of forcing "buy once" players to tollerate not being in the 1% of most-trained players, that the only decision remaining is to instead swap to a subscription model, is also supercilious. The fact is, not everyone playing Crowfall cares about being in the 1%. Some are completely okay being in the top 10% or the top 50%. If it means they never have to pay again, that number probably doubles. 

Most of the examples cited as to how doomed this is to fail, also fail to recognize there is no grinding in this game for experience or levels. At best you need to login each day to change skills. The only real example of this system being implemented is EVE Online and it did perfectly fine for the 4-5 years players had a similar system (it wasn't the exact same but it was pretty close).

The sky isn't falling, despite the strong "drama" present in this thread, the fact that this manufactured outrage only seems to be coming from the same 5 people shows how off base they are about the community as whole not "accepting" this change. Get a few hundred people more to complain about it and I think even ACE would take notice. As it stands, its just a few discontents on a street corner yelling at us with bullhorns.

Edited by scree

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2 hours ago, BarriaKarl said:

I see where they are coming from. Nobody ever felt happy to see that your skill lvled 1 point.

"Sweet! Now i got more 0.05% critical chance! Hell yeah!"

^Said nobody ever.

At least now you feel happy to see your skill lvling. I understand that it is all a matter of perception, and having to wait to see results may be worse overall but i kinda like it. It is just like any other lvling system, you get points to use in your character after hitting 100% in the exp bar and not 1 str at 10%, 1 spd at 20% etc., you just get everything at once.

It is actually much worse...   you will no longer get that .05% (yes it is still the same amount in the end) until you ding whereas before you had that tiny incremental benefit happen continuously.  In the case of a tier 8 node you will now wait 14+ days for ANY the change to kick in.   How was realizing the benefits of training more gradually but continuously a bad thing compared to essentially banking up the benefit in a holding account that will not effect your stats each 20% rather than each 1%.  Makes no sense that anyone would support this...   could mean the difference in a close fight but hey, the whiners seem to win over the devs here a lot.


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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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3 minutes ago, Jjohnsin said:

People acting like this is the end of the world lol. It's really not THAT big of a deal that you need to login more often to update your skill trains. I mean, it's inconvenient I suppose but you're only going to be really disadvantaged during the beginning skill trains that are much faster that later skill trains. Once everyone gets through basic training it's not going to have a huge impact either way imo because the training times are much longer. 

But I'm sure the negative posts on this thread will continue for another 14 pages either way.  

But the point of allowing you to progress after 3-4 pips, was to change the way we travel through the trees, so you get much further along before you get to those longer training times.

This makes it even worse for casual players, as they will chose to traverse the skill trees in a completely different way, not because of how they want to play the game, but because of how life outside the game is impacted by those choices.

For us no-lifers on VIP, we are not going to feel it like the vast majority of players, but rest assured they will feel it, and some of them will leave over it.

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2 minutes ago, scree said:

This thread is/was just awful. 

The fact that the same 5 people keep citing that basically the non-paying buy-once player community won't tolerate this indignant outrage of a change....

Who exactly didn't buy the game that is going to play it?

VIP is not supposed to be a requirement to play, buy buying a copy of the game is.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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6 minutes ago, Jjohnsin said:

People acting like this is the end of the world lol. It's really not THAT big of a deal that you need to login more often to update your skill trains. I mean, it's inconvenient I suppose but you're only going to be really disadvantaged during the beginning skill trains that are much faster that later skill trains. Once everyone gets through basic training it's not going to have a huge impact either way imo because the training times are much longer. 

But I'm sure the negative posts on this thread will continue for another 14 pages either way.  

Jj...   to progress through the vessel tree towards leadership is ALL Tier 1 nodes...   that is over a month of logging in every 2-5 hours night and day to stay efficient for a non VIP account.   The losses due to training efficiency in non-VIP accounts are going to add up extraordinarily fast.  Instead of maybe losing an hour or two of training time per month many players will lose 20 to 30 hours of training time per month.   Buy2Play has no meaning when buying the game without VIP puts you at such a huge training disadvantage.   There are over 30 t1 nodes that most players will have to train through and most will train all 5 pips as they push asap towards 50% or the tree to unlock familiarity.


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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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