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Skill mechanics - Official discussion thread

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7 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

i would also argue that the general trees are currently too linear for your suggestion they constantly switch to training another node they might not even want much to be a viable solution

I hope (and am assuming, since they've had the time) that they put some real thought in to the new skill tree insomuch as the progression we'll see makes sense. It makes no sense that'd I'd have to train my health pool to unlock some extra AP or skill up two or three armor types to get to the node past them. I have faith ACE committed some poor intern to putting their heart and soul in to designing a very nice and practical skill tree.  


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46 minutes ago, Duffy said:

We can't prove our arguments at this point, but that's kind of the whole point of bringing it up now. If you wait til it's done and released, and not enough people show up for whatever reasons, it's too late to fix. But if there's a chance some of those reasons could be headed off by speaking now, we're gonna do it because we want the game to succeed.

No matter what, "enough" players aren't going to magically show up. Too lazy too count, but even saying there are 50-100 people posting in here, that is absolutely not a good sample size. On top of that, most of us likely have VIP or were planning on paying for it already.

My guess is the powers that be at ACE have a lot more experience, knowledge, and access to actual REAL data than all of us armchair know it alls.

They'd likely didn't pick this out of a hat without considering all the pros/cons. What surprises me is how people didn't see such a thing coming with what they've already done with the shop, 3rd party traders, and how VIP/trading was planned to work already. Money will impact this game. Those that thought they'd be "equal" to everyone just because they bought the game must not play any other games or pay attention to the market at all.

Pretty sure everyone wants the game to succeed, ACE most of all and it is never too late to make changes, even drastically. Could of F2P a week before launch and anger a whole bunch but hope a lot more show up. We don't know and at this point we've paid for something that isn't finalized and getting upset about changes that we don't even have the full context for seems premature.

35 minutes ago, why_me said:

dont hide behind a paywall.

There are so many things a VIP could get that nobody would care about

So either the catch up mechanic for the non-VIP players will be working really well and they dont get any disadvantage. Something like instant learning of skills if they fall behind 1 day, else the VIP would give you an advantage....

I'd prefer no paywalls, but as you said, most suggestions (all of them?) I've seen could fall into the nobody cares about group. If nobody cares, why are they going to pay? I'm certainly not going to pay for VIP if I don't need/want anything it offers. The entire model that runs a ton of games is convenience/advantage and people feeling the urge to pay. Beyond a few massive titles that can afford to be F2P with vanity shops, most games and mmos appear to run on some form of this model. Again as I said above, not sure why anyone is shocked or upset that ACE is starting to present their model that falls in line with the others.

FAQ has been changed before and if it currently doesn't mesh with what they announced or do in the future, that's on them to update it and potentially offer refunds or whatever to upset folks. My guess is there is a clause somewhere in there like "everything is subject to change, buy at your own risk." These guys are pretty smart when it comes to their money.

Edited by APE

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Considering MMOs and crowdfunding projects keep failing despite solid teams on paper I think the appeal to authority fallacy is regularly confirmed around these parts. But I'm sure those projects were somehow not as legitimate for some hand wavy excuse...

I can also assure you all the shareholders were not informed about these sort of decisions nor has specific monetization plans been discussed with them.

Comparing grind to passive training is still about relative comparables. If someone can grind X but someone else can only grind X-100 in the same amount of realtime there is still a comparable difference. Same as if they missed clicking the passive skill training. Though I agree with the general sentiment that a big old grind is way worse.

Edited by Duffy

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10 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

What's more inconvenient, a game where permanent progression is behind 2342342 hours of grinding, or a game where it is behind a few clicks every once in a while?

Please think of the folks that can't afford VIP that are forced to wake up at 3AM. They are going to be tired and lose their jobs! I'd rather grind my life away then let them lose their jobs. Heck I'll even pay double for VIP so they can have it too!

Insert FAQ quote that I interpret to mean what I want.

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The fact this thread already has 18 pages shows not everyone likes these changes. Massive Reveal Day only has 20 and it's two months old.

EVE already solved this and I already recommended it. Non-VIP players get to queue, but only for a 24 hour duration. VIP players get unlimited duration.

Then give VIP players other perks like item mall discounts or random monthly skins.

Please explain why this isn't a better idea. It is also tried and proven by the company that invented passive skill training.

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Just now, Duffy said:

Considering MMOs and crowdfunding projects keep failing despite solid teams on paper I think the appeal to authority fallacy is regularly confirmed around these parts. But I'm sure those projects were somehow not as legitimate for some hand wavy excuse...

Which MMOs are those?

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4 minutes ago, ClockworkOrange said:

The fact this thread already has 18 pages shows not everyone likes these changes. Massive Reveal Day only has 20 and it's two months old.

EVE already solved this and I already recommended it. Non-VIP players get to queue, but only for a 24 hour duration. VIP players get unlimited duration.

Then give VIP players other perks like item mall discounts or random monthly skins.

Please explain why this isn't a better idea. It is also tried and proven by the company that invented passive skill training.

Fully agree.

While I'm not up in arms with this update, also don't believe it's the end of CF.

However, if EVE is their inspiration, they should look at the current model that deals with the current market and gamers, not what they did years ago.

Between their F2P/Sub model and some things like Skill Extractors/Injectors, ACE could borrow heavily from EVE and likely avoid a lot of hassle now and later. VIP perks and potential issues with new players down the road are two of my biggest concerns with CF. Neither of which seems solid at this point, even for how early we are.

Edited by APE

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4 minutes ago, APE said:

Please think of the folks that can't afford VIP that are forced to wake up at 3AM. They are going to be tired and lose their jobs! I'd rather grind my life away then let them lose their jobs. Heck I'll even pay double for VIP so they can have it too!

Insert FAQ quote that I interpret to mean what I want.

Ironically some of the people against these changes are the same ones that were reminiscing about having to wake up at 4am to defend against a siege in another game.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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16 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Ironically some of the people against these changes are the same ones that were reminiscing about having to wake up at 4am to defend against a siege in another game.

The fact that you don't understand the difference speaks volumes. 

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12 minutes ago, Gradishar said:

The fact that you don't understand the difference speaks volumes. 

Or the fact that you don't understand the irony and ultimately the hypocrisy, speaks volumes.

So let's think about this, if you sit there reminiscing about having to skip work and log on at 4am to defend a city, should you really have a problem with hitting a training node every once in a while? 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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1 hour ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Or the fact that you don't understand the irony and ultimately the hypocrisy, speaks volumes.

So let's think about this, if you sit there reminiscing about having to skip work and log on at 4am to defend a city, should you really have a problem with hitting a training node every once in a while? 

Can I pay $15 to make sure my city is protected when I'm not home?

Sorry if ACE steals this idea :)

Edited by APE

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3 hours ago, ClockworkOrange said:

We think the same of your comments. People already did the math for you and linked the comment by ACE showing VIP players have no advantage over non VIP. 17% is a pretty big advantage in a pvp game.

Don't bother yourself with all these emotions. Ignoring facts doesn't mean they aren't there 

I grew up with sub mmos as well and I still like that model. The best part about the sub though is that it wasn't optional. This put us all on an even playing field. This optional sub creates problems.  

3

This 17% number being tossed around is based on faulty math.

They used linear models without player's human decision making tree involved at all to come up with laughable models. They enforced the idea that you HAVE to finish a skill training before swapping (something they've said you do not). The worst case scenario for this game is the launch of the game where players are unable to choose 8+ hour long queues at the outset of the game while they are off working. Which should be easily avoidable in short order (as long as you can play the game for about 8 hours of time before you quit the first night). After they start to hit these nodes, however, this disadvantage fades away pretty quickly to 0% if you play smart. 

An intelligent and dutiful player could queue up a 16 or 35 hour node, swapping it out for shorter nodes while he's online and swapping back while at work/sleep. The idea Tinnis injected that players won't have enough choices to pick from is a laughable excuse. There are hundreds of skills right now, and likely to be even more by the time we launch (half the skill trees in the client are locked and invisible right now). If you can't find an alternate skill to queue up, then that's a choice you made and you sacrificed training time to achieve it.

Choices have consequences. Not subscribing means you need to plan and strategize your training more than someone who doesn't. If someone wants me to draw them a diagram for the above concept of swapping skills mid-train, let me know. I know how dense this audience can be and sometimes pictures make everything easier.

 

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1 hour ago, scree said:

They enforced the idea that you HAVE to finish a skill training before swapping (something they've said you do not).

The numbers are worse if you only take it to 3 pips.

The numbers are worse if you only take it to 3 pips.

 

The numbers.

Are worse.

Not better.

If you only take it to 3 pips.

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OK, after reading through 3 of 18 pages, i wanted to throw in my 2 cents.  Crow Falls skill system has been advertised to essentially be based around how Eve's skill system works. Any change to deviate away from that model will be taken negatively by a lot of folks.  In fact that model is how i was able to talk a bunch of my work associates into looking at Crowfall.  My work schedule is one where i might have a decent bit of time to play computer games for 2-3 months and then not get to touch a computer for for game purposes for 2-3 months.  The awesome thing about the way the skill system was originally advertised was that if i was going to be gone for a month or 2 and miss playing in a campaign or 2 i would at least have made skill leveling progress while i was away and could hop into a new campaign when back with my new cool skill point gains.  Now, i understand the want to differentiate between vip and non-vip and add insentive to VIP, but this announcement wont help us, help you, sell games!  As mention multuple times before at the absolute bare minimum a non-vip should be able to queue at least 2 pips in up to 2 different skills.  example: they could queue to train 1 pip in one skill and then train a second pip in either the same skill or another skill all together.  VIPs should be able to queue their at least 5 to 10 pips in a similar manner as non-vips except with having 5 to 10 pips to do so.  That way i can do something like queue 4 pips in one skill, queue 3 pips in the next skill, and queu another 3 pips in another tree's skill all together.  Non-VIP people should be able to easily manage their skill queues if they are able to log in at any point between a 24 and 48 hour time period.  VIPs that cant get on for a month or more at a time should not have to worry about missed training times due to not being able to log in. 

 

I dont want every day Joe with weird work schedules or our every day heroes (emergency medical staff, cops, fire fighters, armed forces, etc. having to be penalized because they do stuff that is important and beneficial for the rest of us.  Also, to be honest, i do have 4 different accounts; however, i have over 14 years of VIP between them so its not like i am trying to circumvent paying for VIP as i already have.

 

  I do think, though, that if folks are thinking they need to do extra stuff to incentivize folks to spend money or buy vip, that character visual customization is a big place to do it.  Some folks will hate this idea, but add a cash/in game resource shop that will let you unlock extra cosmetic options, hair colors, hair styles, facial features, skill art, armor recolors, armor designs, decoractions, etc.  make it so that the options can be unlocked ingame, but are very expensive reource wise, but they could also be instantly unlocked with purchasable premium game currency.  then give VIPs x amount of premium currency for spending on cosmetic stuff each month in addition to the skill/pip queuing. NonVIPs will still be able to unlock the extra cosmetic stuff, but it will take them longer since they are not monthly contributing to the game's financial needs.

Yal have a good one,

X

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6 hours ago, scree said:

This 17% number being tossed around is based on faulty math.

They used linear models without player's human decision making tree involved at all to come up with laughable models. They enforced the idea that you HAVE to finish a skill training before swapping (something they've said you do not). The worst case scenario for this game is the launch of the game where players are unable to choose 8+ hour long queues at the outset of the game while they are off working. Which should be easily avoidable in short order (as long as you can play the game for about 8 hours of time before you quit the first night). After they start to hit these nodes, however, this disadvantage fades away pretty quickly to 0% if you play smart. 

An intelligent and dutiful player could queue up a 16 or 35 hour node, swapping it out for shorter nodes while he's online and swapping back while at work/sleep. The idea Tinnis injected that players won't have enough choices to pick from is a laughable excuse. There are hundreds of skills right now, and likely to be even more by the time we launch (half the skill trees in the client are locked and invisible right now). If you can't find an alternate skill to queue up, then that's a choice you made and you sacrificed training time to achieve it.

Choices have consequences. Not subscribing means you need to plan and strategize your training more than someone who doesn't. If someone wants me to draw them a diagram for the above concept of swapping skills mid-train, let me know. I know how dense this audience can be and sometimes pictures make everything easier.

 

your argument is literally to avoid micromanagment: add more micromanagment! (but now you cant even freely train the linear path nodes you actually want)

what your describing isnt difficult to understand, ive done it often enough up to this point around current timescales and schedules and while you minimise waste time it still side tracks your focused training

there are 100s of skills and many skill trees as you say but the progression paths are not flexible enough generally for what you describe 

just to reiterate my position @scree im not really against these changes, i was just curious. my hate for alt account abuse overshadows all of these things. i want people to support ACE via VIP and play by the intended spirit and design of the systems.

Edited by Tinnis

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11 hours ago, canvox said:

For the record, based on numbers that thomas posted in this thread, 3 pips requires 25% of total training time and 4 pips requires 50% of total training time.  So the 50% promise is accurate

Thanks. But i was referring mainly to the skill effect and secondary to the click effort (which is also planning effort).

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They should change to allow VIP to chose the next five Pips to be trained instead of just ending all Pips of the chosen Skill.

Thats still bad if the active one ends in off-peak-hours and just activating the next five to-be-trained Pips would be much more relaxing.

Plus, nonVIP should be able to set the next to-be-trained Pip. Otherwise, they lose time between EVERY Pip of EVERY skill, just by having the delay of clicking at the right time. Calling that "just be active" is really nonsense and far from reality.

I thought, they'd change it in a way to allow VIP to queue up the next to-be-trained-skills. And instead they even put more to-be-trained pips with timegaps by inactiveness in every single skill... Thats so sad...

I even hoped for the opportunity for VIP to be able to select any Skill in any Skilltree and have the Skilltraining system automatically train up to that skill in an optimized way... Like "I want basic crafting tree made full, click on highest tier, come back a month later and be done".

That would be a nice VIP perk... Now, we have to come back to the game every some hours as nonVIP and every other day as VIP... I just hate it.

Imo, one loses enough time with the old system for just not being there when a Skill is trained full without a queue for the next. Now VIP stay with that crap and nonVIP get the crap multiplied by 5? ouch.

Edited by Gromschlog

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No we didn't make a linear curve, here's the math on a Tier 1 skill-

Pip1 - 2.39hr  Pip2 - 4.67hr Pip3 - 9.14hr Pip4 - 17.94hr Pip5 - 35.2hr

Tier * Hour is how long a Pip will take in this model.

Looking at this, it's only problematic for the Tier 1 trees and for people who don't want to bother launch a training skill.

First day, let's say i can play only 5 hours : i choose the Tier 1 on one skill and so i'm away from Pip2 of this skill and to pip 3

Pip 3 will finish on the night and the game will wait until i log in again. Let's say i didn't start my computer and the game before going to work because i don't have time (family, etc...) and so i'm off to work for 8 hours, the game still wait until i'm home and can play (supposed i log right after the 8 hours).

I log then and instead of continuing my actual tree, since i have 5 hours, i start another one but before bed i'll restart training the first one and so it's up for the time of my sleep + 1 hour. Yet again the game will wait when i'm at work until i can resume.

Honestly, after the Pip 4 i'm quite easily at peace and since i use my time playing to pop other tier 1 + 1/2/3 pips, and launch longer pip when i'm away, i don't really see a problem here (starting at pip 4 the time will easily cover the 16 hours i'm away sleeping/working/other stuff)

Will i be behind some dude who spend money on the game? Offcourse since he will win the time i've lost between resuming

Will it change my life as a gamer to know that @Tinnis have slightly more AP than me? I don't think so.

It's against the FAQ Ace put words on? Sure

Will it stay like this until release? Probably not.

Either the FAQ will change and probably the Tree too (as @thomasblair pointed out) and so it's a lot of "the sky is falling" for a thing who will change probably quite a numerous time before the launch of the game.

People were asking about the interest in VIP (because a lot of us have a ton of them in our account) well you have it now.

If the game is fun, good and keep his promise, the VIP skill system won't bother the people who want to play a good game.


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Thelanas Kar'Pal Membre fondateur de l'alliance Naerth en 2001 - Ex Shadowbane European Advisor Damnation/Carnage/Vindication/Corruption http://www.twitch.tv/gorwald/profile

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