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Skill mechanics - Official discussion thread

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My first question as always is "When will this be implemented" We get lots of updates and do not see any implementation of it for 6 months or better.

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24 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

For non-VIP players, there is no “queueing system”, so you’ll want to log into the lobby and adjust your skill trains between “dings”.

 

^This seems like a pain for non-VIPs. Like a really big PITA.

I think the advantage of having access to more things through accounts will be > the pain in the ass tho.

Edited by izkimar

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I think the pip system is much better -- especially the ability to move on to the next skill at 3 or 4 pips.

I hope that the future improvements make the skill tree more about choosing progression paths, and less about being online for every important skill ding.  I don't want my life to revolve around baby sitting the skill tree.  For me, that simply isn't fun or even healthy.   How do other's feel about that? Should there be a skill point advantage to those who masterfully manipulate training times so skill dings happen while online?  Is minimizing skill tree down time an essential part of the game?

 

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Nice, like the new setup and cant wait to see it in action.  I am kind of on line between this VIP/Non-VIP but will see how it really works out.

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Example: A VIP player can start a skill training at zero pips and three days later it will hit five pips automatically. A non-VIP player can achieve the exact same result in the same period of time, but they will need to login five times during that period – once every 14 hours

 

How to give something more value, without giving players a competitive edge over other players.  Convenience.

 

That said. Here's hoping that convenience factor doesn't turn into a necessity :D

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Hopefully this is just the initial implementation of skill queuing and that additional functionality will be available later. I was under the impression that VIP's were going to be able to queue additional skills not just pips within a skill. As it stands now you didn't really add anything to VIP you just took away from non-VIP. 


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FYI - assigning your skill point every 14 hour example is only for a tier 1 node (against current speed of each tier = ~3 days to train)

oUyktIx.png


1 minute ago, BarriaKarl said:

I dont think it is fair to go through that line of thinking. It shouldnt be balanced aroud multiple accounts.

In the example in the news TBlair said the player would need to log every 14 hours just to start training another "Ding". That is totally impossible for people who have a life. I wouldnt mind since i am always near my PC but what about people who have jobs? Will we force people to wake-up 2 AM just for this? This is basically going against the reason they chose the passive skill training.

Like someone said before this is not making VIP desirable, this is making non-VIPs suffer instead.

the 14 hour example is only for the starter tier 1 nodes

Edited by Tinnis

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21 minutes ago, izkimar said:

I think the advantage of having access to more things through accounts will be > the pain in the ass tho.

I dont think it is fair to go through that line of thinking. It shouldnt be balanced aroud multiple accounts.

In the example in the news TBlair said the player would need to log every 14 hours just to start training another "Ding". That is totally impossible for people who have a life. I wouldnt mind since i am always near my PC but what about people who have jobs? Will we force people to wake-up 2 AM just for this? This is basically going against the reason they chose the passive skill training.

Like someone said before this is not making VIP desirable, this is making non-VIPs suffer instead.

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While i intend to have VIP on all my accounts (if i choose more then 1) The per pip queue is really really dumb. It should be 1 full skill (5 pips) for non vip and 2 full skills (10 pips) for VIP. Before eve had a skill queue it was a pain in the ass to have to time your logins for skill queue changes without a 3rd party application to help you. This is with you paying a subscription. This game compares it self to eve in the time skill based leveling but for real the 1 pip queue for non-vip is rough man. Bad manners imo.

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I think it'd be a good idea to take a page out of Eve's book here: they allow free account skill queuing out to a limited horizon: 24 hours.  So logging in daily you can keep a full queue without having to log in at specific times or multiple times per day and that seems fair.

Edited by canvox

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1 hour ago, Teufel said:

@thomasblair Your 14 hour guess is slightly off, you do realize the first 50% of a skill node trained faster than the last 50% of the skill node.  So I have a question:

  • Did you revamp the skill training times to be a linear training, instead of the curve we have now?

If you didn't adjust the training times, then it will be more like logging in to start the 1st pip, then log in a couple hours later for the 2nd pip, then log in a few hours after that for the 3rd pip and then your 14 hours, then a full day for the last pip.

Realistically, it would mean that you would log in and switch to a skill with the first or second pip while playing, then switch to the one that needs the most time as you log off.

I mean you are going to actually want to play when you log in right?

I like the idea of it being a micromanagement nightmare for people loading up with ALT accounts that are free of VIP benefits. I mean, that "should" be the expected type of player, one account on VIP, right, right?

 

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14 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

I dont think it is fair to go through that line of thinking. It shouldnt be balanced aroud multiple accounts.

In the example in the news TBlair said the player would need to log every 14 hours just to start training another "Ding". That is totally impossible for people who have a life. I wouldnt mind since i am always near my PC but what about people who have jobs? Will we force people to wake-up 2 AM just for this? This is basically going against the reason they chose the passive skill training.

Like someone said before this is not making VIP desirable, this is making non-VIPs suffer instead.

That is true. Hadn't thought of it from that direction.

Also a bit of a sad face, no mention of the possibility of adding some form of active training to supplement the passive.

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The idea that forcing people to login on some designed schedule to adjust skills has some sort of value besides purposely wasting a player's time is pretty ridiculous. Punitive design almost always fail to curb a behavior or generate a positive outcome, it just creates animosity. 

Worrying about trying to hamper multi account people is pointless. It's a much more inefficient version of just straight up having more people. If your not concerned about hampering groups working together you shouldn't worry about a single player trying to use multiple accounts. It's a waste of energy and good will.


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I'm just going to come out and say it - the lack of non-VIP queuing, forcing people to log in every 14 hours or waste training time, is quite possibly one of the most vile, disgusting and disappointing things I've seen in over 40 years of gaming and software use, and this in a universe where Microsoft exists. It won't impact me at all as I will have VIP, but the fact this is being done to anyone who buys this game almost makes we want to boycott it. Absolutely gross decision on ACE's part, I'm quite simply astonished.

 

"For non-VIP players, there is no “queueing system”, so you’ll want to log into the lobby and adjust your skill trains between “dings”.

For VIP members, skills will continue to train after earning any pip, up to the maximum of five pips for the selected skill.

Example: A VIP player can start a skill training at zero pips and three days later it will hit five pips automatically. A non-VIP player can achieve the exact same result in the same period of time, but they will need to login five times during that period – once every 14 hours"

 

As for the pip system in general, like many of CF's mechanics, it artificially introduces PITA complexity for dubious reasons and minimal payoff. The idea that this is being done so people can better feel their advancement is ludicrous, given the consequences. Stunning really.

Last bit of criticism on these revelations - those not criticized are positive by default - the iconography for the skill nodes does not, in my opinion, do what it is intended to do. The difference between a horizontal hexagon and a vertical hexagon is one that will for those who require the indicator mostly likely also require checking a reference for recalling the difference between the two. My genuine feeling here from a design and goal-meeting perspective is that it would be much more effective to use different shapes entirely.

Sorry to sound harsh and overly negative, but damn, these are some questionable decisions and without honest feedback, I'm not sure you'll know it.

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3 minutes ago, Duffy said:

The idea that forcing people to login on some designed schedule to adjust skills has some sort of value besides purposely wasting a player's time is pretty ridiculous. Punitive design almost always fail to curb a behavior or generate a positive outcome, it just creates animosity. 

Worrying about trying to hamper multi account people is pointless. It's a much more inefficient version of just straight up having more people. If your not concerned about hampering groups working together you shouldn't worry about a single player trying to use multiple accounts. It's a waste of energy and good will.

They plan to have a mobile app for training, maybe they can just allow everyone vip and non vip to use the app.

Also vip can be acquired in game and is cheap anyway.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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41 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

the 14 hour example is only for the starter tier 1 nodes

Doesnt change anything. We got either 14, 28, or 42 hours. Those numbers are awful, that basically means that no matter when you start the training you will either have to wake up just to train the new "Ding" or have to wait for a few hours until you can log in again.

They should change this, It will cripple people who doesnt have that much freedom to play. Remember that the whole point of the passive training was to help people (normally older players with job and family etc.) who cant focus as much in the game so IMO they are moving backwards with this choice.

Edited by BarriaKarl

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1 minute ago, Duffy said:

The idea that forcing people to login on some designed schedule to adjust skills has some sort of value besides purposely wasting a player's time is pretty ridiculous. Punitive design almost always fail to curb a behavior or generate a positive outcome, it just creates animosity. 

Worrying about trying to hamper multi account people is pointless. It's a much more inefficient version of just straight up having more people. If your not concerned about hampering groups working together you shouldn't worry about a single player trying to use multiple accounts. It's a waste of energy and good will.

It's clear, blatant and blind greed, pure and simple. It does absolutely nothing but drive VIP sales.

As I said, I will have VIP, but imagine those who don't, or if I did not. I work 10 hour shifts, I spent 3 to 4 hours a day traveling. I sleep, I have a life outside Crowfall. Sometimes I go away for a couple days...anyone who does those things is going to retard the so-called passive training system (it is no longer passive BTW with this requirement) considerably. With all of the different 14-hour cycle offsets, over all of the skills, this is a considerable amount of having to micro-manage the queuing. Forget real life, you're going to need to do this in game, on campaign, in combat, at 5 times the frequency you do now. Again, I am honestly shocked and flabbergasted - as I was reading the News item my mouth dropped open.

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