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Skill mechanics - Official discussion thread


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Thinking a bit more about it, I would like to see it change at least to.

Non-VIP, que two pips.

VIP Que 10 pips. (2 Full skills)

The idea that you have to login at a specific time for the change, in either scenario, is just off.

For the Non-VIP you have to login at the specific time of any ding, for the VIP you have to login at the specific time of 1/5th of the dings, when you complete a node. This means that even if you're VIP you may be stuck waking up at 3am just to swap your skills.

Hardly an improvement. There should be at least one seamless, non time dependent transition for everyone.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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I have VIP on all my accounts, so this doesn't affect me, but making non-VIP login 5 times per skill to keep up training is pretty evil.  For low tier skills, that's an awful lot of micromanagement.  

Oh good the Pips are part of the passive skill training design, not more Pips for actual in game skills.  I was worried all classes went to Pips. When we log in every day, but have spans of 2+

Sincere feedback - I absolutely hate the requirement to log in immediately after each "ding" to get the training clock going again.   This system is one of "punishment avoidance" not "achievement

2 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Thinking a bit more about it, I would like to see it change at least to.

Non-VIP, que two pips.

VIP Que 10 pips. (2 Full skills)

The idea that you have to login at a specific time for the change, in either scenario, is just off.

For the Non-VIP you have to login at the specific time of any ding, for the VIP you have to login at the specific time of 1/5th of the dings, when you complete a node. This means that even if you're VIP you may be stuck waking up at 3am just to swap your skills.

Hardly an improvement. There should be at least one seamless, non time dependent transition for everyone.

I really think non vip should be 4-5 pips and vip should be 10. 

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5 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Thinking a bit more about it, I would like to see it change at least to.

Non-VIP, que two pips.

VIP Que 10 pips. (nodes)

The idea that you have to login at a specific time for the change, in either scenario, is just off.

For the Non-VIP you have to login at the specific time of any ding, for the VIP you have to login at the specific time of 1/5th of the dings, (When you complete a node).

There should be at least one seamless, non time dependent transition for everyone.

This. Also, regardless of the fact that this is intended to be micromanagement, the timing is awkward for everybody. If you're a VIP and trying to blitz through a skill's first 3 pips to unlock the next skill down, the times you have to calculate are in increments of 14 hours. That's just awkward, especially for people who can only log in during certain times of the day.

If nothing else, I'd like to see what KrakkenSmacken suggested here, as well as seeing the increments changed to something that divides into 24. 12 hours seems like the most obvious choice to me, but what do I know?

Edit: for clarity, what I'm suggesting is a quality of life change along the lines of how most "daily" things in other games reset either at a specific time each day OR every 20 hours, rather than every 24 hours, so that people with a limited window of free time each day aren't put at a significant disadvantage vis a vis completing dailies.

Re-edit: and yes, I realize that just reducing the training time per pip by 2 hours would reduce the time it takes to train a tier 1 skill from 3 days to 2 days and 14 hours, but uhhh.....that doesn't sound like a problem I especially care about. >_> I'd rather have nice round numbers where I actually have to interact with them than elsewhere.

Edited by goose

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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2 minutes ago, Anthrage said:

It's clear, blatant and blind greed, pure and simple. It does absolutely nothing but drive VIP sales.

As I said, I will have VIP, but imagine those who don't, or if I did not. I work 10 hour shifts, I spent 3 to 4 hours a day traveling. I sleep, I have a life outside Crowfall. Sometimes I go away for a couple days...anyone who does those things is going to retard the so-called passive training system (it is no longer passive BTW with this requirement) considerably. With all of the different 14-hour cycle offsets, over all of the skills, this is a considerable amount of having to micro-manage the queuing. Forget real life, you're going to need to do this in game, on campaign, in combat, at 5 times the frequency you do now. Again, I am honestly shocked and flabbergasted - as I was reading the News item my mouth dropped open.

Pay $15 a month or whatever in-game trade value?

My assumption based on what forum goers have said along with ACE is that CF is aimed at a more mature audience. As in, those working that can afford to spend a few dollars to support the game on a continued basis. Although I wouldn't mind some sort of "Spend X in the store get Y number of VIPs free" deal for those buying $500 cosmetics.

The idea that this is new, unfair, or forcing anyone to do anything is silly.

This is a smart move to do as you say, drive VIP sales. They need value and this does it and also somewhat devalues multiple non-VIP accounts that so many thought would be the easier/cheaper route.

I want to pay for VIP, but won't if it has little value. Extra training alone wasn't cutting it, this change in addition does.

CF is supposed to be about choices and consequences. Choose not to pay for VIP, you'll have to log in more frequently for 30 seconds to click a couple buttons. Those that want to compete and excel in the game are going to find the time and or pay in some way.

CF might not be straight P2W but for sure those that spend more money, time, effort, etc will be at an advantage as it always has been.

I too work 10+ hour shifts, have family/friends and a life away from video games, but even if I didn't have VIP, I'm pretty sure I could take a min or two every day or several (if training is similar as now) to make sure my virtual entertainment continues to grow.

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6 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Thinking a bit more about it, I would like to see it change at least to.

Non-VIP, que two pips.

VIP Que 10 pips. (2 Full skills)

The idea that you have to login at a specific time for the change, in either scenario, is just off.

For the Non-VIP you have to login at the specific time of any ding, for the VIP you have to login at the specific time of 1/5th of the dings, when you complete a node. This means that even if you're VIP you may be stuck waking up at 3am just to swap your skills.

Hardly an improvement. There should be at least one seamless, non time dependent transition for everyone.

That can work. If everyone can que 2 pips it means that a player only needs to login everyday or something like that.

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16 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

They plan to have a mobile app for training, maybe they can just allow everyone vip and non vip to use the app.

Also vip can be acquired in game and is cheap anyway.

If it's trivial or unimportant then why bother doing it or forcing it in the first place? Clearly they think it has significant added value otherwise they wouldn't charge for it, but in the end it's nickel and diming players to avoid 'wasting' their time. Not respecting players time is a huge red flag to lots of players out there. That's a very bad place to start your business logic from. But if you're trying to get the 'buy once' crowd this is defiantly going to drive some portion of them away and for what tangible gain to the game or the devs?

Transparency: I personally have something like 10 years of VIP so it's not going to affect me at all.

Edited by Duffy

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I would like to see the VIP benefits further extended to allow you to queue an entire new skill when you hit your 5th pip. 

As for this being an "evil" mechanic I see where you're coming from but I don't really agree. I feel like this system is completely manageable and fair for non VIP players that are only playing one account. Plus it's a massive nerf to the people planning to multi-account the hell out of the game which means that player choice and specialization will feel even better.

The reality is that the game needs a continuous cash flow and it's much better for both the players and the developers if the cash flow is consistent through subscriptions. We know exactly how much we're paying every month and ACE knows what they're getting each month. With VIP being the primary long term cash flow it means the developers are incentivized to make content for the game rather than content for a cash shop.

Sure there's the EK stuff but ACE has said themselves that they aren't expecting too many people to fork over the money for the big ticket items. Also all of the EK store items are recycled from things that we can build/use in the Campaign Worlds.

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1 minute ago, Duffy said:

If it's trivial or unimportant then why bother doing it or forcing it in the first place? Clearly they think it has significant added value otherwise they wouldn't charge for it, but in the end it's nickel and diming players to avoid 'wasting' their time. Not respecting players time is a huge red flag to lots of players out there. That's a very bad place to start your business logic from. But if you're trying to get the 'buy once' crowd this is defiantly going to drive some portion of them away and for what tangible gain to the game or the devs?

Transparency: I personally have something like 10 years of VIP so it's not going to affect me at all.

You don't have to sit there and grind skills... Creating a endless grind of labor like most games . where to be competitive you have to kill endless mobs and do quest for orphans is not repecting my time. I don't mind this type of "skill gain" "OHNO I gotta log in and click a Damned button." wow  

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3 minutes ago, Duffy said:

If it's trivial or unimportant then why bother doing it or forcing it in the first place? Clearly they think it has significant added value otherwise they wouldn't charge for it, but in the end it's nickel and diming players to avoid 'wasting' their time. Not respecting players time is a huge red flag to lots of players out there. That's a very bad place to start your business logic from. But if you're trying to get the 'buy once' crowd this is defiantly going to drive some portion of them away and for what tangible gain to the game or the devs?

Transparency: I personally have something like 10 years of VIP so it's not going to affect me at all.

Optional subs are almost always going to be incentivized based on saving people time. 

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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5 minutes ago, goose said:

This. Also, regardless of the fact that this is intended to be micromanagement, the timing is awkward for everybody. If you're a VIP and trying to blitz through a skill's first 3 pips to unlock the next skill down, the times you have to calculate are in increments of 14 hours. That's just awkward, especially for people who can only log in during certain times of the day.

If nothing else, I'd like to see what KrakkenSmacken suggested here, as well as seeing the increments changed to something that divides into 24. 12 hours seems like the most obvious choice to me, but what do I know?

Edit: for clarity, what I'm suggesting is a quality of life change along the lines of how most "daily" things in other games reset either at a specific time each day OR every 20 hours, rather than every 24 hours, so that people with a limited window of free time each day aren't put at a significant disadvantage vis a vis completing dailies.

Re-edit: and yes, I realize that just reducing the training time per pip by 2 hours would reduce the time it takes to train a tier 1 skill from 3 days to 2 days and 14 hours, but uhhh.....that doesn't sound like a problem I especially care about. >_> I'd rather have nice round numbers where I actually have to interact with them than elsewhere.

Well in my experience, all my full skill swaps happen at close to the same time every day, the time I login.

The trick is dividing 24 by 5. 4.8 each, yuk. 

Now 3/6/9/24/30 hrs X tier could work to get even 72 hrs per tier node.

Personally I would prefer 1/2/3/8/10 X tier. It makes sense from two directions. 1 teir = 1 day. Easy to understand, and 1/2/3 hours breaks up nicely into a typical game session, so you could switch to your 1/2/3 hour training when you start a session, and back to your 8/10 and higher tiers when you log out.

I personally don't have a clue why the picked a granularity of tier one skill = 3 days.  It's such a strange and unintuitive number all the way around.

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2 minutes ago, Duffy said:

If it's trivial or unimportant then why bother doing it or forcing it in the first place? Clearly they think it has significant added value otherwise they wouldn't charge for it, but in the end it's nickel and diming players to avoid 'wasting' their time. Not respecting players time is a huge red flag to lots of players out there. That's a very bad place to start your business logic from. But if you're trying to get the 'buy once' crowd this is defiantly going to drive some portion of them away and for what tangible gain to the game or the devs?

Transparency: I personally have something like 10 years of VIP so it's not going to affect me at all.

What "buy once" game with an optional sub doesn't strongly encourage people to pay for the sub?

The entire point of the sub is to open our wallets with the value.

"Buy once" people are still more than able to do just that, simply have to put in a bit more effort.

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11 minutes ago, APE said:

CF is supposed to be about choices and consequences. Choose not to pay for VIP, you'll have to log in more frequently for 30 seconds to click a couple buttons. Those that want to compete and excel in the game are going to find the time and or pay in some way.

CF might not be straight P2W but for sure those that spend more money, time, effort, etc will be at an advantage as it always has been.

I dont think it is a smart move to force players to get VIP to avoid being punished. That is the kind of thing that kill games.

Non-VIPs should be considered the target audience while VIPs are those that cough some money for convenience. If you are gonna gimp all non-VIPs they should just go Premium and use a subscription model instead of mistreating non-VIPs.

Edited by BarriaKarl
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1 hour ago, Tinnis said:

FYI - assigning your skill point every 14 hour example is only for a tier 1 node (against current speed of each tier = ~3 days to train)

oUyktIx.png


Play schedule right now is focused on weekends, or taking months off at a time while waiting for the next content drop.  Most of us will have a lot more keyboard time come release, therefore planning your AFK training should be a relatively minor concern.

Also everyone needs to keep in mind that there will be multiple nodes open for training at multiple tiers.  As of now, progress on training saves its state if you jump around nodes.  So if you are a non-VIP going away for a long weekend then queue up a fresh Tier 6 pip.  (Or get some VIP!)

I do agree with the idea of VIP allowing you to queue up the next skill, not just the current skill pip.  It would be handy to avoid down time if something completes between daily play sessions.

Edited by ren

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To echo pretty much everyone in this thread....

Having non-vip log in 5 times to cap one node is pretty annoying IMO. No it is not a major nerf to people with multiple accounts, just annoying. I thought the whole point of having the passive skill training was so that we didn't need to log on twice a day to stay competitive in the power curve?  IMO the non-vip system should work the way it does now.  The node will cap (all 5 pips) but will not queue the next skill in the tree that you want.  VIP should be able to chose the next skill you want to train in the tree after the current one has been capped.

ACE you once again took something that could be super simple and made it hassle and far more complicated than it needs to be. 

 

"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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As someone who plans to always have VIP active as long as I'm playing and won't even be negatively affected by it... I think this queuing idea is awful. Don't do this to the non-subscriber players. It will only push people away.

I like the ideas of giving non-VIP players some queuing (even if it's only a pip or two) and giving VIP players MORE queuing. But forcing people to have to log in every 14 hours to keep up unless they pay is only going to make people angry. 

As someone else pointed out... the whole point of the passive training system was so people wouldn't fall behind or have to play a certain amount to keep up. Making it so they have to log in every 14 hours or whatever just to queue up the next skill or fall behind goes completely against this system.

It very much feels like a punishment instead of a convenience thing.

Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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16 minutes ago, APE said:

What "buy once" game with an optional sub doesn't strongly encourage people to pay for the sub?

The entire point of the sub is to open our wallets with the value.

"Buy once" people are still more than able to do just that, simply have to put in a bit more effort.

19 minutes ago, Zybak said:

I would like to see the VIP benefits further extended to allow you to queue an entire new skill when you hit your 5th pip. 

As for this being an "evil" mechanic I see where you're coming from but I don't really agree. I feel like this system is completely manageable and fair for non VIP players that are only playing one account. Plus it's a massive nerf to the people planning to multi-account the hell out of the game which means that player choice and specialization will feel even better.

The reality is that the game needs a continuous cash flow and it's much better for both the players and the developers if the cash flow is consistent through subscriptions. We know exactly how much we're paying every month and ACE knows what they're getting each month. With VIP being the primary long term cash flow it means the developers are incentivized to make content for the game rather than content for a cash shop.

Sure there's the EK stuff but ACE has said themselves that they aren't expecting too many people to fork over the money for the big ticket items. Also all of the EK store items are recycled from things that we can build/use in the Campaign Worlds.

Then just admit it's really a sub game with 'purchased' base gimped accounts ala EVE's current scheme. I don't care I'll still pay a sub, but it'll head off the all the flak and hate your going to get when players realize you tried to bait and switch them. The majority that will one day start playing this game do not follow all this as closely as the people hanging out on this forum and they will not like it.

17 minutes ago, dolmar said:

You don't have to sit there and grind skills... Creating a endless grind of labor like most games . where to be competitive you have to kill endless mobs and do quest for orphans is not repecting my time. I don't mind this type of "skill gain" "OHNO I gotta log in and click a Damned button." wow  

If it's trivial then why force it? What is gained from making the player login every X hours? The answer is nothing, but you can charge them so they only have to login X/2 hours and that's value!

There's better philosophies for adding positive convenience value to VIP. While maybe not applicable something like adding extra 'character' slots (essentially the equivalent of a whole new account) to an existing account a bit cheaper than buying a new account is convenience with some trade off (can't log both in at the same time). That's the sort of philosophy to aim for, making it easier to do things people were already going to do anyways with some room for trade offs for the value.

Edited by Duffy

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7 minutes ago, dolmar said:

You don't have to sit there and grind skills... Creating a endless grind of labor like most games . where to be competitive you have to kill endless mobs and do quest for orphans is not repecting my time. I don't mind this type of "skill gain" "OHNO I gotta log in and click a Damned button." wow  

You guys are totally missing the point. You are telling me that nobody minds waking 2 Am just to click a button? Or wasting 6 hour of training because you was at work and being constantly being left behind?

That will get tiresome quickly and i bet my money that the majority of the players will go away after putting up with that. Very few people will put money after being ignored like that.

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Just now, BarriaKarl said:

I dont think it is a smart move to force players to get VIP to avoid being punished is a smart move. That is the kind of thing that kill games.

Non-VIPs should be considered the target audience while VIPs are those that cough some money for convenience. If you are gonna gimp all non-VIPs they should just go Premium and use a subscription model instead of mistreating non-VIPs.

I'm sorry but it is silly to believe that people are "forced" to do anything in regards to pixels in a video game or "punished" if they don't.

This is a new change but the game is not released. At launch if people don't want to participate due to such things, oh well, they are free to do so.

As I asked above, I don't know of any optional sub games that don't do pretty much the same thing. Sub perks that reward those paying without totally stopping non-subs from playing or doing what the Sub are capable of.

VIP being obtained through trading also decreases the issue compared to some games that it is a cash only option, imo.

If you know of a few games "killed" by this type of thing, please point them out.

Believe they said they project 25% VIP at launch. So Non-VIP is their target.

No one is being mistreated and surely they can adjust the times to make it less of a hassle (14 hours is odd), but I like this overall.

 

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