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Skill mechanics - Official discussion thread

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It is a constant thing of quick fix now, we will fix it later. 

Oh wait for a while it will be sooo cool....

Don't worry sure we did the dumb thing now but later on it will be great. 

Well we were running out of time so we could only do this. 

We are waiting for some engineering time. 

Because I said so!

That's Dumb.

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5 minutes ago, Duffy said:

Then just admit it's really a sub game with 'purchased' base gimped accounts ala EVE's current scheme. I don't care I'll still pay a sub, but it'll head off the all the flak and hate your going to get when players realize you tried to bait and switch them. The majority that will one day start playing this game do not follow all this as closely as the people hanging out on this forum and they will not like it.

If it's trivial then why force it? What is gained from making the player login every X hours? The answer is nothing, but you can charge them so they only have to login X/2 hours and that's value!

There's better philosophies for adding positive convenience value to VIP. While maybe not applicable something like adding extra 'character' slots (essentially the equivalent of a whole new account) to an existing account a bit cheaper than buying a new account is convenience with some trade off (can't log both in at the same time). That's the sort of philosophy to aim for, making it easier to do things people were already going to do anyways.

No one is being "forced" to do anything. If a player decides to purchase CF, they should hopefully be presented with a clear description of the game and VIP. If training isn't clear, that is misleading on ACE's part, but I'll give them the benefit for now. Lets not assume ACE is trying to be shady at this point.

I have no problem with a sub only game nor optional where sub players have an easier/better time. Oh well. VIP can be earned/traded for in-game and there will likely be those that simply get by non-VIP just fine.

Been playing in the Albion Online beta and likely will continue since it launches this month, but their Sub is worse in my opinion. Basically makes the games 50% easier/better vs non-sub. But like CF, can be purchased in-game so not a huge deal for anyone that plays regularly. I know there are more popular games that have optional subs that make the games "better" and they seem just fine.

I agree there could be better ways to go about it and hopefully they take feedback under consideration, but VIP needs value or people won't buy it. Value doesn't mean adding a bunch of things people can pass without question. There needs to be a few perks that make those on the fence take a second to consider.

This change is doing what you suggest though. People were going to log in frequently to train, VIP makes this easier.

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4 minutes ago, APE said:

I'm sorry but it is silly to believe that people are "forced" to do anything in regards to pixels in a video game or "punished" if they don't.

This is a new change but the game is not released. At launch if people don't want to participate due to such things, oh well, they are free to do so.

As I asked above, I don't know of any optional sub games that don't do pretty much the same thing. Sub perks that reward those paying without totally stopping non-subs from playing or doing what the Sub are capable of.

VIP being obtained through trading also decreases the issue compared to some games that it is a cash only option, imo.

If you know of a few games "killed" by this type of thing, please point them out.

Believe they said they project 25% VIP at launch. So Non-VIP is their target.

No one is being mistreated and surely they can adjust the times to make it less of a hassle (14 hours is odd), but I like this overall.

 

*Shrugs* Just check at how many games are clearly okay gameplay wise but people just keep away because they were branded with the P2W tag.

"Crowfall isnt a bad game but dont let the B2P tag fool you, unless you get VIP you will never be competitive." (With this change this is certainly true)

Do you think CF being a niche game can survive after half of the internet is bad mouthing it? Everyone gives a quick search in a game before buying it, do you think this change is worth the risk of scaring away people?

There is a reson the DEVs chose to go B2P. If they thought the game could survive with subscription only they would have done so from the beggining.

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18 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

I dont think it is a smart move to force players to get VIP to avoid being punished. That is the kind of thing that kill games.

Non-VIPs should be considered the target audience while VIPs are those that cough some money for convenience. If you are gonna gimp all non-VIPs they should just go Premium and use a subscription model instead of mistreating non-VIPs.

WHY? They already have nearly 20k sign up that are almost all ViP players in some way shape or form. ViP can be sold/traded in game, most likely the tradeable ViP will also be slightly higher priced than the non tradeable as we already saw this in their shop at one point. Why aim for non ViP as their tagert audience? As a company you want to make money to pay all your expenses and then have profits. A non ViP player pays one time free of $50 then nothing else, why would you want to go after those players? They have already shown that there is a big enough market for PAYING players just by presales alone. They do not need to cater to the non ViPers in hopes of one day turning them into paying players. The box cost of the game helps push out the riff raft slightly (Nothing will completely eliminate it) , it also helps prevents bots and gold sellers slightly as they have to steal someone CC to make an account now or actually put up the initial cost themselves. It also allows for massive sales to happen for special occasions or special limited time free trail offers that get people hooked and then get them to buy the game. Most f2p games have something like 90% f2p playing and 10% paying players. Doing a box cost means everyone had to pay something to get into the game which helps the business, which in turn keeps the game alive and pushing out new content. This games does not need 1,000,000 players to be successful they are aiming for a small niche market not mass appeal. If said game is GOOD people will flock to it regardless of the cost.


Check out my youtube channel for testing gameplay https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp-AgZ6mHOVObusemDVEXoA

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Just now, YouTubejasonwivart said:

WHY? They already have nearly 20k sign up that are almost all ViP players in some way shape or form. ViP can be sold/traded in game, most likely the tradeable ViP will also be slightly higher priced than the non tradeable as we already saw this in their shop at one point. Why aim for non ViP as their tagert audience? As a company you want to make money to pay all your expenses and then have profits. A non ViP player pays one time free of $50 then nothing else, why would you want to go after those players? They have already shown that there is a big enough market for PAYING players just by presales alone. They do not need to cater to the non ViPers in hopes of one day turning them into paying players. The box cost of the game helps push out the riff raft slightly (Nothing will completely eliminate it) , it also helps prevents bots and gold sellers slightly as they have to steal someone CC to make an account now or actually put up the initial cost themselves. It also allows for massive sales to happen for special occasions or special limited time free trail offers that get people hooked and then get them to buy the game. Most f2p games have something like 90% f2p playing and 10% paying players. Doing a box cost means everyone had to pay something to get into the game which helps the business, which in turn keeps the game alive and pushing out new content. This games does not need 1,000,000 players to be successful they are aiming for a small niche market not mass appeal. If said game is GOOD people will flock to it regardless of the cost.

Because without those players the paying players would have no one to play with and would leave. You can't just cater to the paying players or it's a death sentence.


Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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Honestly, I don't really get all the complaints about the non-VIP lack of pip queueing. Sure logging in every few hours is an incredible PITA if you have a fulltime job, but isn't that exactly the demographic of people that VIP is supposed to appeal to - i.e. fulltime workers with more disposable income than free time? I just don't see the overlap on a Venn diagram between the circles that say "has a fulltime job and can't log in every few hours" and "can't afford $15/month VIP."

If such a person exists - spending a lot of time on non-gaming obligations, and lacking the disposable income for VIP - they're probably not a hardcore player that cares about missing a few hours of training.

Granted, this undercuts the whole "optional" fiction about VIP, but I've always seen it as a subscription. If ACE intends to sustain itself on VIP income, I really don't see a way to make it happen without adding something that's desirable for the hardcore longtime players, and we're exactly the people who can't stand the thought of missing 4 hours of training time while we sleep. I really doubt the noobs are going to have a problem with missing some training time, especially when they compare the effort to log in every few hours to "level up" vs. spending hours grinding away like you do in other games.

This is also an incredible blow against the holders of 30 non-VIP accounts, which I'm grateful for. We can't prevent multiple accounts, but we can ensure that they have a cost (in either time/effort or cash) to offset their benefits, and this change accomplishes that beautifully.

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10 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

No we didn't make a linear curve, here's the math on a Tier 1 skill-

Pip1 - 2.39hr  Pip2 - 4.67hr Pip3 - 9.14hr Pip4 - 17.94hr Pip5 - 35.2hr

Tier * Hour is how long a Pip will take in this model.

100% accurate historical account of what Blair did to everyone trying to multi-account the crap out of this game.

deandre-jordan-posterizes-brandon-knight

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3 minutes ago, Svenn said:

Because without those players the paying players would have no one to play with and would leave. You can't just cater to the paying players or it's a death sentence.

Yes you can and the numbers of presale prove that you can. This game can easily function with 20,000 players split between several severs. How many people do you think are gonna be maxxed on each server? Last I heard it was 1000 on at the same time. You can run 3 different CW at the same time so with 20k players you have at least 20 different CW going at the same time... THESE ARE PRESALE NUMBER TOO they will grow dramatically once the game is soft launched and launched.

Edited by YouTubejasonwivart

Check out my youtube channel for testing gameplay https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp-AgZ6mHOVObusemDVEXoA

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These changes seem to me to be on the right track.  What seems a little odd to me is the idea that people are getting upset because they may lose 8 hours of video game training time to save $15. :mellow:

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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I am hoping this is just a UI image issue not a drastic change to the concept of Crowfall's commitment to the character skill training choice trinity Gatherer / Crafter / Combat General options.

Amazing Picks under Combat > Excavation 

RsoFi75.png

where right now Amazing Picks are under Explorations > Excavation 

 

 


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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3 minutes ago, Zybak said:

100% accurate historical account of what Blair did to everyone trying to multi-account the crap out of this game.

It doesn't really change anything about multi-accounting.  I have multiple accounts and check training daily, now that all my skills come off at the same time.  Just now the times when non-vip accounts skills nodes come off training will be at odd hours and be impossible (unless you are just crazy) to keep up to par and not lose training time.

Edited by Destrin

"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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21 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

No we didn't make a linear curve, here's the math on a Tier 1 skill-

Pip1 - 2.39hr  Pip2 - 4.67hr Pip3 - 9.14hr Pip4 - 17.94hr Pip5 - 35.2hr

Tier * Hour is how long a Pip will take in this model.

this doesn't match the example in the article

Quote

Example: A VIP player can start a skill training at zero pips and three days later it will hit five pips automatically.

A non-VIP player can achieve the exact same result in the same period of time, but they will need to login five times during that period – once every 14 hours

 

Edited by Tinnis

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21 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

End result, much more choice now in advancement, and more value added to VIP.

I like the additional choice in advancement. 

Value wasn't added to VIP yet. Right now value was just taken away from non-VIP. Value will be added to VIP when multi-skill queuing is implemented. 

Do you have any idea of what the next implementation of VIP skill queuing will look like?

  • How far out will we be able to queue skills as a VIP? I'd love to be able to queue out as far as I have VIP months tied to my account. So if I have 1 month of VIP I can queue skills out 1 month. If I have 60 months of VIP I can queue skills out 60 months. 
    • You may be able to sell more large bundles of VIP months this way. 
  • Will we be able to queue on a per pip basis or just a per skill basis? For example, if want to train 2 pips in skill A, then 2 pips in skill B, then 1 pip in skill C - will I be able to queue on a per pip basis in this fashion?
Edited by blazzen

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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2 minutes ago, blazzen said:

I like the additional choice in advancement. 

Value wasn't added to VIP yet. Right now value was just taken away from non-VIP. Value will be added to VIP when multi-skill queuing is implemented. 

Do you have any idea of what the next implementation of VIP skill queuing will look like?

  • How far out will we be able to queue skills as a VIP? I'd love to be able to queue out as far as I have VIP months tied to my account. 
  • Will we be able to queue on a per pip basis or just a per skill basis? For example, if want to train 2 pips in skill A, then 2 pips in skill B, then 1 pip in skill C - will I be able to queue on a per pip basis in this fashion?

Value was added to ViP just not in the discussed sections here but the fact that people glossed over that all accounts ViP will be active for FREE until the game official launches is a HUGE news statement. Offical launch is sometime in 2018 but soft launch is end of this year so essentially free ViP for at least a few months if you buy 1 ViP


Check out my youtube channel for testing gameplay https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp-AgZ6mHOVObusemDVEXoA

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Just now, YouTubejasonwivart said:

Yes you can and the numbers of presale prove that you can. This game can easily function with 20,000 players split between several severs. How many people do you think are gonna be maxxed on each server? Last I heard it was 1000 on at the same time. You can run 3 different CW at the same time so with 20k players you have at least 20 different CW going at the same time... THESE ARE PRESALE NUMBER TOO they will grow dramatically once the game is soft launched and launched.

Wow, this is so wrong I don't even know where to start.

Of all the people that already bought the game, not all will even play it. That's just a matter of people falling off over time. Of the people that do play it, many will not play every single day. The numbers of concurrent users is far less than the number of total (or even active) users. To have 1000 concurrent users on a server, you'll need something like 5-10,000 active players.

Of the people that already bought into the game, many of them will not pay for VIP. If they leave because they don't feel they are being treated fairly you're lucky to get a single campaign running with good concurrency with these numbers. People will leave because their preferred campaigns aren't even running. Now you're left with a tiny pool of people still playing who won't stick around long when they don't have enough players to play with/against.

If they could sustain the game with just VIP subscribers they would just make it a sub game. They didn't. That should tell you something.


Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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1 minute ago, Anhrez said:

I am hoping this is just a UI image issue not a drastic change to the concept of Crowfall's commitment to the character skill training choice trinity Gatherer / Crafter / Combat General options.

Amazing Picks under Combat > Excavation 

 

where right now Amazing Picks are under Explorations > Excavation 

 

 

Don't worry we haven't moved the skills around. Susi calls that the "grandfather tree" issue. It is just defaulting to combat now as the grandfather tree for all trees. We ended up pushing that ask to the bottom of the list. It will get fixed in the future.


Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
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Just now, thomasblair said:

Don't worry we haven't moved the skills around. Susi calls that the "grandfather tree" issue. It is just defaulting to combat now as the grandfather tree for all trees. We ended up pushing that ask to the bottom of the list. It will get fixed in the future.

thank you to talking me off the gathering ledge .......


Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

LR0tCJt.png

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Basically, before this news people were like "yeah training suck it's so useless, we got like 0.0000000001 points in this stats i only push the button and don't care until next weeks"

After this news it's like "What? how will i train now? i can't afford login every 10 min to put my skills on ! You take away stuff for free players ! Riot everyone ! Let's burn Ace"

So funny :D 


WnxjrJ9.gif

Thelanas Kar'Pal Membre fondateur de l'alliance Naerth en 2001 - Ex Shadowbane European Advisor Damnation/Carnage/Vindication/Corruption http://www.twitch.tv/gorwald/profile

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9 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

*Shrugs* Just check at how many games are clearly okay gameplay wise but people just keep away because they were branded with the P2W tag.

"Crowfall isnt a bad game but dont let the B2P tag fool you, unless you get VIP you will never be competitive." (With this change this is certainly true)

Do you think CF being a niche game can survive after half of the internet is bad mouthing it? Everyone gives a quick search in a game before buying it, do you think this change is worth the risk of scaring away people?

There is a reson the DEVs chose to go B2P. If they thought the game could survive with subscription only they would have done so from the beggining.

What games were branded P2W that suffer because of it and actually aren't P2W?

Honestly rather not play with sheep that can't do the slightest bit of learning about a product before purchasing or writing it off, but that's how it is these days.

Even still, for every "terrible" "broken" "devs don't care" product, there are people playing. Apparently some don't care and enjoy trash or don't feel the same way as the forum goers spending their time bad mouthing things instead of enjoying something else.

Really wouldn't be surprised to see CF go F2P or cheap game purchase with an even more convenient sub. If there are enough players to support the game and keep CW going, I don't really care.

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