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Skill mechanics - Official discussion thread

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6 minutes ago, Destrin said:

It doesn't really change anything about multi-accounting.  I have multiple accounts and check training daily, now that all my skills come off at the same time.  Just now the times when non-vip accounts skills nodes come off training will be at odd hours and be impossible (unless you are just crazy) to keep up to par and not lose training time.

With this scale

Pip1 - 2.39hr  Pip2 - 4.67hr Pip3 - 9.14hr Pip4 - 17.94hr Pip5 - 35.2hr

You bet your socks this is going to hurt ALT account players that don't VIP. It's the one good thing about this strange scale.  Have enough accounts on the first three pips of training and you're going to be on 24/7 just logging in, and setting skill changes.

Now if you ALT and VIP them all, yea it's not a big deal.

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6 minutes ago, Anhrez said:

thank you to talking me off the gathering ledge .......

If you think about it, gathering is really just a specialized form of combat against piles of rock..

Crowfall should go the Dwarf Fortress route: have trained gatherers get combat bonuses when wielding a pick as a weapon in pvp, and have strength/attack power/etc. boost your damage against nodes.

Edited by Avloren

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10 minutes ago, APE said:

No one is being "forced" to do anything. If a player decides to purchase CF, they should hopefully be presented with a clear description of the game and VIP. If training isn't clear, that is misleading on ACE's part, but I'll give them the benefit for now. Lets not assume ACE is trying to be shady at this point.

I have no problem with a sub only game nor optional where sub players have an easier/better time. Oh well. VIP can be earned/traded for in-game and there will likely be those that simply get by non-VIP just fine.

Been playing in the Albion Online beta and likely will continue since it launches this month, but their Sub is worse in my opinion. Basically makes the games 50% easier/better vs non-sub. But like CF, can be purchased in-game so not a huge deal for anyone that plays regularly. I know there are more popular games that have optional subs that make the games "better" and they seem just fine.

I agree there could be better ways to go about it and hopefully they take feedback under consideration, but VIP needs value or people won't buy it. Value doesn't mean adding a bunch of things people can pass without question. There needs to be a few perks that make those on the fence take a second to consider.

This change is doing what you suggest though. People were going to log in frequently to train, VIP makes this easier.

Let's drop the 'no one is forced to play games' argument, yea we know you can just not play the game, that's not exactly great for the game.

So what is the goal of the mechanic then? What player interaction is it driving? What is the benefit of requiring a player to login to click a button if they want to queue up the next training? How does that make the game better? Right now it seems purely a mechanism to generate revenue via VIP, sure more stuff will get added to VIP but if its gets too much an advantage then we fall back into the 'it's really a sub game' and if that's the case then it needs to be marketed clearly or it will bite ACE in the posterior. Just look at the waves this silly announcement is causing among us diehards hanging out on their forums, you think the people that will comer later aren't gonna have problems if something isn't changed or clarified?

How many of those VIP sub games aren't trying to cater to the MMO masses? Is CF going to be big enough to rely on that sort of sub conversion scale? Monetization is of course a concern, but how it's done has a huge impact on your audience and the mass appeal might not be there enough to mitigate bad impressions.


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9 minutes ago, Svenn said:

Wow, this is so wrong I don't even know where to start.

Of all the people that already bought the game, not all will even play it. That's just a matter of people falling off over time. Of the people that do play it, many will not play every single day. The numbers of concurrent users is far less than the number of total (or even active) users. To have 1000 concurrent users on a server, you'll need something like 5-10,000 active players.

Of the people that already bought into the game, many of them will not pay for VIP. If they leave because they don't feel they are being treated fairly you're lucky to get a single campaign running with good concurrency with these numbers. People will leave because their preferred campaigns aren't even running. Now you're left with a tiny pool of people still playing who won't stick around long when they don't have enough players to play with/against.

If they could sustain the game with just VIP subscribers they would just make it a sub game. They didn't. That should tell you something.

People will stick around if the game is GOOD not because there is a lot of players. If the game is bad people will leave. Population has little to do with that especially if they are aiming for 1000 concurrent as their max. Do you realize how small that number is? You think that it needs to have 5-10k players to hit 1k online at the same time, which I think is way to high. I've seen it over and over again with new patches of games, or launches or fresh start servers...the amount of players easily hit their caps and queue happen cause of the new/freshness hype. Yes they die off over time but for the 1st few days/weeks the hype is insane Crowfall is all about that HYPE, CW should not be longer than 2 weeks ( The longer the CW the less active the world will be) to capitalize on that hype and fresh ness. If done correctly and if the game is not poorly made socks, the servers will almost always be on queue. The initial part of a MMO has players pulling in 12-24 hours shifts to "win" or get a head.

 

A great movie tie in to crowfall is LIVE DIE REPEAT... that would be how I market this game once its ready.

Edited by YouTubejasonwivart

Check out my youtube channel for testing gameplay https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp-AgZ6mHOVObusemDVEXoA

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21 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

"Crowfall isnt a bad game but dont let the B2P tag fool you, unless you get VIP you will never be competitive." (With this change this is certainly true)

Do you think CF being a niche game can survive after half of the internet is bad mouthing it? Everyone gives a quick search in a game before buying it, do you think this change is worth the risk of scaring away people?

i argue the same about $10k palaces putting people off without the proper context

Edited by Tinnis

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A game can be fun to play, and have so many nickel and dimed hogwash attached to ruin it. (See many many facebook games)

Well this part is fun, but...
Well that was cool, but...

Damn I have to log on in 3 hours or I waste my 8 hours sleeping? FFfffffff.....

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Just now, YouTubejasonwivart said:

People will stick around if the game is GOOD not because there is a lot of players. If the game is bad people will leave. Population has little to do with that especially if they are aiming for 1000 concurrent as their max. Do you realize how small that number is? You think that it needs to have 5-10k players to hit 1k online at the same time, which I think is way to high. I've seen it over and over again with new patches of games, or launches or fresh start servers...the amount of players easily hit their caps and queue happen cause of the new/freshness hype. Yes they die off over time but for the 1st few days/weeks the hype is insane Crowfall is all about that HYPE, CW should not be longer than 2 weeks ( The longer the CW the less active the world will be) to capitalize on that hype and fresh ness. If done correctly and if the game is not poorly made socks, the servers will almost always be on queue. The initial part of a MMO has players pulling in 12-24 hours shifts to "win" or get a head.

Yes, you absolutely need 5-10k players to have 1k concurrent. People play at different times, for different lengths of time, different days, etc. If you want to have an average 1k concurrent you need a LOT more than 1k people.

Yes, on launch days or the first few days there is a lot of hype... and it drops off quick.

Campaign Worlds are said to be months long... not sure where you are getting this 2 week number. That's not even a little bit accurate. Directly from the FAQ: "In terms of duration, we expect them to last anywhere from a month to a year."

Yes, some players put in 12-24 hour shifts... and those are the minority by far. Most players put in a few hours a day max.

You don't seem to have any concept of how all of this actually works.


Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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Another option that could sort of fix this, but it would be a new system, is to allow players to bank unallocated training time.

So when you run out of pip training, a time pot fills up that you can apply the next time you login.

Non-VIP 24hr cap.

VIP, unlimited cap.

That would get around the frequency of ding's, and need to login more than once per day, at the lower pip levels. VIPs could go on holiday, and have the fun of leveling up everything they would have missed while they were away.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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3 minutes ago, srathor said:

A game can be fun to play, and have so many nickel and dimed hogwash attached to ruin it. (See many many facebook games)

Well this part is fun, but...
Well that was cool, but...

Damn I have to log on in 3 hours or I waste my 8 hours sleeping? FFfffffff.....

Yes there is over kill and this is not even close to that 3/4 hour timers that mobile games have on lockboxes or collections. 14 hours for tier 1 and then tier 2 is like 28 hours? These are large periods of time and if you are playing a MMO you most likely are logging in daily at least 1 time.


Check out my youtube channel for testing gameplay https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp-AgZ6mHOVObusemDVEXoA

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18 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

With this scale

Pip1 - 2.39hr  Pip2 - 4.67hr Pip3 - 9.14hr Pip4 - 17.94hr Pip5 - 35.2hr

You bet your socks this is going to hurt ALT account players that don't VIP. It's the one good thing about this strange scale.  Have enough accounts on the first three pips of training and you're going to be on 24/7 just logging in, and setting skill changes.

Now if you ALT and VIP them all, yea it's not a big deal.

It's not a huge deal for me, i have multiple accounts with VIP for several years.  I also plan on have some accounts with non-vip.  I will be fine.  But for those people with 1 account and are non-vip it's going to suck IMO.  Basically all this system does it forces your training times longer, while giving us the illusion that it can take the same amount of time... well for a normal person.. crazies will log on when ever that skill comes off to re-up it.


"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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13 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Another option that could sort of fix this, but it would be a new system, is to allow players to bank unallocated training time.

So when you run out of pip training, a time pot fills up that you can apply the next time you login.

Non-VIP 24hr cap.

VIP, unlimited cap.

That would get around the frequency of ding's, and need to login more than once per day, at the lower pip levels. VIPs could go on holiday, and have the fun of leveling up everything they would have missed while they were away.

 

Even a universal 24 hour bank + VIP queuing would solve this problem.  There's a million solutions, but you have to start with the objective that I can log in daily, on roughly my own schedule, and keep up 1:1 with VIP players.

10 minutes ago, YouTubejasonwivart said:

Yes there is over kill and this is not even close to that 3/4 hour timers that mobile games have on lockboxes or collections. 14 hours for tier 1 and then tier 2 is like 28 hours? These are large periods of time and if you are playing a MMO you most likely are logging in daily at least 1 time.

Actually, it's 3/5/9/18/35 hours for tier 1 and 6/10/18/36/70 hours for tier 2.  If I have a 6 hour period when I can log in daily, it will take me 5 days instead of 3 to train a T1 and 8 days instead of 6 to train a T2.

Edited by canvox

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14 minutes ago, srathor said:

A game can be fun to play, and have so many nickel and dimed hogwash attached to ruin it. (See many many facebook games)

Well this part is fun, but...
Well that was cool, but...

Damn I have to log on in 3 hours or I waste my 8 hours sleeping? FFfffffff.....

Big difference between mobile/FB games trying to get you to spend cash constantly on everything vs paying one monthly fee that you can also obtain through in-game means.

If someone is that stressed about pixels and can't afford $15 or less a month, probably should avoid video games and go take a walk and relax.

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1 minute ago, APE said:

Big difference between mobile/FB games trying to get you to spend cash constantly on everything vs paying one monthly fee that you can also obtain through in-game means.

If someone is that stressed about pixels and can't afford $15 or less a month, probably should avoid video games and go take a walk and relax.

They were only officially targeting 25% of the player base to be on VIP during the Microventure round, and nothing I have seen makes me think that has changed.

75% of player are EXPECTED to have to live under the non-vip rules. That's the majority, not the exception.

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19 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

With this scale

Pip1 - 2.39hr  Pip2 - 4.67hr Pip3 - 9.14hr Pip4 - 17.94hr Pip5 - 35.2hr

You bet your socks this is going to hurt ALT account players that don't VIP. It's the one good thing about this strange scale.  Have enough accounts on the first three pips of training and you're going to be on 24/7 just logging in, and setting skill changes.

Now if you ALT and VIP them all, yea it's not a big deal.

It's inconvenient, sure, but there are a multitude of ways around the inconvenience.

The problem still stems from a couple of facts: the system they use for skills benefits alts over VIP, and that the majority of alts will be of the crafter/gatherer variety.

I also continue (as discussed in other threads) to point to the fact there is a very small subset of solutions that could even introduce the possibility of VIP being 'more attractive' over alts (without altering their core premise(s)); this is not one of them.  This is not even a deterrent to the type of person who will run a non-VIP alt; I also disagree that it will "hurt" them in any meaningful/significant way...too many alternative solutions abound.

I do question if this is the beginning of the idea to add value to ViP and get away from the idea of VIP being a 'better alternative' to alts, or if they are going to continue to maintain the seemingly untenable position.

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1 minute ago, APE said:

Big difference between mobile/FB games trying to get you to spend cash constantly on everything vs paying one monthly fee that you can also obtain through in-game means.

If someone is that stressed about pixels and can't afford $15 or less a month, probably should avoid video games and go take a walk and relax.

Being able to obtain something in game doesn't automatically mean it's not pay to win.

If I can grind for 2000 hours to get an item or pay $60 for it... that's still pay to win.

Being able to sell VIP in game is actually the worst possible thing. Sure, you can get VIP in game... but you are 1) spending a TON of time grinding the resources needed to buy it and 2) giving those resources to a paying player. So, now you're behind twice... you lost the time to get those resources and someone else got those resources simply for having money outside of the game.

Hell, there's already a TON of posts (check Reddit, it's practically daily) of people seeing the shop and going "holy crap this game is p2w!" Add on a subscription with stuff like this and people are just going to avoid the game completely. It doesn't even matter if it IS pay to win... if the PERCEPTION is that it's pay to win it will drive people away.


Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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For the people making claims about the correlation between subscribers and active/concurrent users, lemme splain you a thing.

http://steamcharts.com/

There you go. Do some digging, have some fun.

Obviously, this resource only tells you about people logging in through Steam, and actual subscriber numbers are up to the developers to release or hold on to, but it gives you a reasonable starting point for making arguments.

edit: flailing at keyboard to try and fix a typo

Edited by goose

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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1.people are complaining about the vip stuff, but i am totally ok with this. Edit: i rethought this and i am not ok with it anymore, to many p2w issues

2. a passive skill training system (even with so called "vip p2w" by some people) is still better than an active skill training system !!!

Edited by Kreigon

One Ring to Rule them all, One Ring to Find them, One Ring to bring them all an in the darkness and bind them.

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21 minutes ago, Duffy said:

Let's drop the 'no one is forced to play games' argument, yea we know you can just not play the game, that's not exactly great for the game.

So what is the goal of the mechanic then? What player interaction is it driving? What is the benefit of requiring a player to login to click a button if they want to queue up the next training? How does that make the game better? Right now it seems purely a mechanism to generate revenue via VIP, sure more stuff will get added to VIP but if its gets too much an advantage then we fall back into the 'it's really a sub game' and if that's the case then it needs to be marketed clearly or it will bite ACE in the posterior. Just look at the waves this silly announcement is causing among us diehards hanging out on their forums, you think the people that will comer later aren't gonna have problems if something isn't changed or clarified?

How many of those VIP sub games aren't trying to cater to the MMO masses? Is CF going to be big enough to rely on that sort of sub conversion scale? Monetization is of course a concern, but how it's done has a huge impact on your audience and the mass appeal might not be there enough to mitigate bad impressions.

But no one is forced to play. If you decide to play a game, you agree to what it offers, good and bad. Then again you can play it and be angry the whole time and complain as well I guess. For me, if I'm not enjoying something, I'm not participating.

Why not do any number of things people have complained about? The game is doomed if everyone single player doesn't get their way?

The goal of the mechanic is very clear, drive VIP sales. This has nothing to do with make the game better or our experiences more fulfilling. It is about making money. ACE is a for profit business with employees trying to make a living and develop/support a product.

I totally agree it needs to be marketed/stated clearly what VIP offers vs non-VIP and hopefully ACE does that. At this point, too early too tell but my assumption is they know what they are doing and aren't going to set themselves up.

If someone doesn't like the model that is one thing, bait and switch is another.

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