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Skill mechanics - Official discussion thread

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2 minutes ago, Kreigon said:

1.people are complaining about the vip stuff, but i am totally ok with this.

2. a passive skill training system (even with so called "vip p2w" by some people) is still better than an active skill training system !!!

Hard disagree.  A passive system is good because it allows me to play on my own schedule without falling behind.  If not falling behind means I have to set a 3am alarm on my phone, it's not doing that job.  I'd rather play more when it's convenient for me than be forced to set up a damn google calendar to track when I need to be online.

Edited by canvox

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2 minutes ago, goose said:

For the people making claims about the correlation between subscribers and active/concurrent users, lemme splain you a thing.

http://steamcharts.com/

There you go. Do some digging, have some fun.

Obviously, this resource only tells you about people logging in through Steam, and actual subscriber numbers are up to the developers to release or hold on to, but it gives you a reasonably starting point for making arguments.

I'm not sure who you were posting this for specifically and what you are inferring. Personally, I prefer Steamspy. Here's Playerunknown's Battlegrounds, as an example. Super popular right now.

https://steamspy.com/app/578080

Owners: 4.3 mill
Players in the last 2 weeks: 3.1 mill
Peak concurrent players yesterday: 284k

6% of owners as peak concurrent players. 9% of active players in the last 2 weeks as peak concurrent players.

Look up any game on there, you'll find similar trends.


Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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1 minute ago, Svenn said:

I'm not sure who you were posting this for specifically and what you are inferring. Personally, I prefer Steamspy. Here's Playerunknown's Battlegrounds, as an example. Super popular right now.

https://steamspy.com/app/578080

Owners: 4.3 mill
Players in the last 2 weeks: 3.1 mill
Peak concurrent players yesterday: 284k

6% of owners as peak concurrent players. 9% of active players in the last 2 weeks as peak concurrent players.

Look up any game on there, you'll find similar trends.

I wasn't inferring anything. I was just giving people a tool to use to avoid talking out their asses during this debate. More tools is more gooder. If anyone else has some, share them.

Edit: but for examples of weirdness in population density versus concurrent logins, compare Wildstar, which I imagine most of you have heard of, with Vindictus, which I imagine comparatively fewer of you know exists. Check back closer to their respective launches, if it tickles your fancy.

Edited by goose

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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10 minutes ago, canvox said:

Hard disagree.  A passive system is good because it allows me to play on my own schedule without falling behind.  If not falling behind means I have to set a 3am alarm on my phone, it's not doing that job.  I'd rather play more when it's convenient for me than be forced to set up a damn google calendar to track when I need to be online.

still better than grind your skill activly 24/7h in nolivemode to "not falling behind"


One Ring to Rule them all, One Ring to Find them, One Ring to bring them all an in the darkness and bind them.

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5 minutes ago, Kreigon said:

still better than grind your skill activly 24/7h in nolivemode to "not falling behind"

I'm going to fall behind either way, at least I can have some control over it

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What's funny to me is that there were mention of "catch up" mechanics in the past. That was supposed to be for people who just started the game. The whole idea being that people shouldn't be behind in skill training.

Now we have a system that has people intentionally falling behind in skill training if they aren't logging in every couple hours to update their training.


Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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I personally don't know what's all the fuss about. I'm a non-VIP one account player and I'm perfectly fine with this. If I ever want the convenience of a training queue I'll either pay for VIP or trade for it with in game resources if I can't afford it. And in the meantime I'll just log on when needed, put higher tier skills to train if I need to stay away from the PC for longer periods of time, and keep a closer eye on my training to keep it as up to date as possible. Simple. It's not like I need to grind for XP in this game anyways, I prefer to have to log in a few times per day than grind. :P

It's a convenience feature and not P2W, it adds value to VIP, it hurts multiple accounts unless they buy VIP as well. Win win. 


 

 

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19 minutes ago, goose said:

I wasn't inferring anything. I was just giving people a tool to use to avoid talking out their asses during this debate. More tools is more gooder. If anyone else has some, share them.

Edit: but for examples of weirdness in population density versus concurrent logins, compare Wildstar, which I imagine most of you have heard of, with Vindictus, which I imagine comparatively fewer of you know exists. Check back closer to their respective launches, if it tickles your fancy.

Wildstar is a great example. https://steamspy.com/app/376570

Players in the last 2 weeks: 25k
Peak Concurrent yesterday: 394

1.5% of the active players logged in at the same time... at MAX.


Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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3 hours ago, Teufel said:

This has me concerned, but I will hold off on judging it until actually playing around with it.  Currently you can let a 30 day skill run its course, under the new skill system I would have to login 4 additional times over 30 days in order to complete the skill.  This is NOT the type of skill queuing most of us were looking for (well at least not me).  I would like to see a skill queuing where you can train 1 skill to 5 Pips and then queue an additional skill to pick up after the original skill is finished.  This helps us not have those midnight wake ups just to change a skill.

If you only log on 4 times a month to train skills, why're are you playing the game in the first place?

2 hours ago, Grimmel said:

Sincere feedback - I absolutely hate the requirement to log in immediately after each "ding" to get the training clock going again.  

This system is one of "punishment avoidance" not "achievement celebration."

A specific problem is that if you are away from your computer for a few days at a time now and then (vacation, business trip), and not around for the "ding", you have to wait days to get the training ticker going again.

And any "dings" that occur during the workday or in the middle of the night mean no forward progress for numerous hours at a stretch.

Yes, you can do the "start longer training cycle and then swap back trick" to mitigate the losses somewhat.

I find it to be a frustrating game play mechanic.

Provide the ability to queue up training tasks and my issue is resolved.  

It seems weak to be pushing VIP to make the game experience less painful as opposed to more fun.

And how does not starting training punish you? I mean, I understand where you're coming from, but you're only training 1/5 of the value of the skill, and I'm willing to bet most people will only train skills to 3/5 and move on. They're not getting the full benefit anyhow. In fact, this places a challenge on VIPers: If they don't want to train the last 2 pips in a node, they'll have to time when that node dings 3, else they waste time on training that could be better spent on other nodes.

Also be reminded of ACE's shallow power curve and diminishing returns. Even after YEARS of being behind, your skill can still make up for it.

1 hour ago, BarriaKarl said:

Doesnt change anything. We got either 14, 28, or 42 hours. Those numbers are awful, that basically means that no matter when you start the training you will either have to wake up just to train the new "Ding" or have to wait for a few hours until you can log in again.

First off, why're you assuming your skills will always come off at the most inconvenient times? Second off, even VIPs will have to wake up at 3am to change nodes, doesn't change anything.

1 hour ago, Anthrage said:

It's clear, blatant and blind greed, pure and simple. It does absolutely nothing but drive VIP sales.

I mean, this is what ACE plans to be their main source of income...

And even after my VIP runs out, I plan to be playing regularly by that time, so my pips should almost always be coming off when I'm playing

1 hour ago, Destrin said:

To echo pretty much everyone in this thread....

Having non-vip log in 5 times to cap one node is pretty annoying IMO. No it is not a major nerf to people with multiple accounts, just annoying. I thought the whole point of having the passive skill training was so that we didn't need to log on twice a day to stay competitive in the power curve?  IMO the non-vip system should work the way it does now.  The node will cap (all 5 pips) but will not queue the next skill in the tree that you want.  VIP should be able to chose the next skill you want to train in the tree after the current one has been capped.

ACE you once again took something that could be super simple and made it hassle and far more complicated than it needs to be. 

 

I don't believe falling behind in training will make you any less competitive than 24/7/365.25 min/maxers...

1 hour ago, BarriaKarl said:

You guys are totally missing the point. You are telling me that nobody minds waking 2 Am just to click a button? Or wasting 6 hour of training because you was at work and being constantly being left behind?

That will get tiresome quickly and i bet my money that the majority of the players will go away after putting up with that. Very few people will put money after being ignored like that.

This would happen to VIPs too, you know...

52 minutes ago, Destrin said:

Personally i like to check my skills training everyday or every second day at lunch cause all the skills come off around the same time.  With the new system these one pip nodes will come off at odd hours.  Sometimes it may be 3am, some times it may be 11pm, and on weekdays, and weekends i am not staying up to 3am to change a skill.  And I assume most of the player base will not do this either.  This will ,over time, push the non-vip account holders behind the power curve. After a year or two a non-vip account will lose TONS of training time cause they come off at non-optimal hours for your players. 

ACE believes that 20% of their player base will use VIP.  That means 80% of their player base is going to have to deal with this odd timing and fall behind the curve.  Why try to annoy 80% of your player base in to buying VIP.  You should be adding VALUE to VIP, not trying to annoy people in to buying your product.

Push them behind the training curve, yes, but if they're regularly playing the game, falling behind weeks, months, or even years, still won't make them uncompetitive. Shallow power curves in the training and diminishing returns will make sure of that, at least.

45 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

*Shrugs* Just check at how many games are clearly okay gameplay wise but people just keep away because they were branded with the P2W tag.

"Crowfall isnt a bad game but dont let the B2P tag fool you, unless you get VIP you will never be competitive." (With this change this is certainly true)

Do you think CF being a niche game can survive after half of the internet is bad mouthing it? Everyone gives a quick search in a game before buying it, do you think this change is worth the risk of scaring away people?

Isn't BDO the same? You can't be competitive unless you pay the sub? And peeps are still flocking to that game.

The difference with Crowfall is that even if you fall behind, your skill with the game can make the difference.


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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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6 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

They were only officially targeting 25% of the player base to be on VIP during the Microventure round, and nothing I have seen makes me think that has changed.

75% of player are EXPECTED to have to live under the non-vip rules. That's the majority, not the exception.

And?

75% of people will some how survive not training 24/7 365.

Almost like insert every game where the top percent are always at an advantage due to financial/time/skill means available to them.

Not sure if people have looked at the skills lately, but unless they drastically change, they aren't that amazing. Being a day or five behind on 1% HP out of combat regen or whatever shouldn't make or break someone's experience.

As I commented, if it is that stressful or game breaking, obtain VIP or avoid the game. For the average gamer, I don't see this being a deal breaker vs something like no PVE, PVP looting, servers going poof after a time, and other harsher and limiting mechanics. 

4 minutes ago, Svenn said:

Being able to obtain something in game doesn't automatically mean it's not pay to win.

If I can grind for 2000 hours to get an item or pay $60 for it... that's still pay to win.

Being able to sell VIP in game is actually the worst possible thing. Sure, you can get VIP in game... but you are 1) spending a TON of time grinding the resources needed to buy it and 2) giving those resources to a paying player. So, now you're behind twice... you lost the time to get those resources and someone else got those resources simply for having money outside of the game.

Hell, there's already a TON of posts (check Reddit, it's practically daily) of people seeing the shop and going "holy crap this game is p2w!" Add on a subscription with stuff like this and people are just going to avoid the game completely. It doesn't even matter if it IS pay to win... if the PERCEPTION is that it's pay to win it will drive people away.

I've said from the start that VIP and the store are P2W in my eyes, but apparently most disagreed. Options/Convenience =/= P2W or some such. P2W has no universal meaning so it is what you believe, but clearly one can turn cash into in-game advantage one way or another.

However, I'm fine with the model and accept that those that spend more time/money will have more than me. Same for most games.

At this point we have no clue what VIP's value will be nor what else from the store will be for trade in/out of game. Whales might be buying VIP 100 at a time and it won't be hard to obtain.

Regardless, the option to pay with cash is always there and isn't anything out of the ordinary for a sub. If the value is worth it, people will pay. If not, they won't.

I see many "I have VIP so won't impact me, but...." comments. I'm curious what the Non-VIP holders think.

As far as Reddit, believe you are exaggerating just a tad, but perception does matter. Luckily, many gamers don't appear to read forums/reddit nor care what others think. If they did, no games would be live as they are all terrible...

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1 minute ago, Svenn said:

What's funny to me is that there were mention of "catch up" mechanics in the past. That was supposed to be for people who just started the game. The whole idea being that people shouldn't be behind in skill training.

Now we have a system that has people intentionally falling behind in skill training if they aren't logging in every couple hours to update their training.

Funny enough, adding a time bank that you can assign if you don't login on off hours would also solve the "catch up" mechanic problem.

Just start new accounts with a time bank of sufficient hours, and let them assign.

I think that is a much more elegant solution than trying to monkey with future skill assignments, as well as provide a better sense of pleasure as someone logs in and can enjoy the process of assigning training time.

 

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2 minutes ago, APE said:

And?

75% of people will some how survive not training 24/7 365.

Almost like insert every game where the top percent are always at an advantage due to financial/time/skill means available to them.

Not sure if people have looked at the skills lately, but unless they drastically change, they aren't that amazing. Being a day or five behind on 1% HP out of combat regen or whatever shouldn't make or break someone's experience.

 

Combat, maybe, but on skill training lines for things like crafting and harvesting, every bloody minute of the 540 day training to complete matters.  If you lose even just 10% of that to off hours changes you can't get to, that's another two whole months to complete.

I suspect that the average non vip player would lose far more than 10%.

 

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4 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Funny enough, adding a time bank that you can assign if you don't login on off hours would also solve the "catch up" mechanic problem.

Just start new accounts with a time bank of sufficient hours, and let them assign.

I think that is a much more elegant solution than trying to monkey with future skill assignments, as well as provide a better sense of pleasure as someone logs in and can enjoy the process of assigning training time.

 

Seems like a time bank would defeat the purpose of making skill training tedious (and thus encouraging VIP purchases).

(And VIP = ongoing revenue = ACE not shutting down the game.)

Edited by angelmar

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2 minutes ago, angelmar said:

Seems like a time bank would defeat the purpose of making skill training tedious (and thus encouraging VIP purchases).

Non VIP caps at 24hr, requires daily login to maintain (at any point in a 24+last training time window). Could even trigger an EMail when the bank was full warning the player to come back and use it up.

VIP unlimited, can visit account on weekends or whatever, and not miss a beat.

That seem encouraging enough to me.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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1 minute ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Combat, maybe, but on skill training lines for things like crafting and harvesting, every bloody minute of the 540 day training to complete matters.  If you lose even just 10% of that to off hours changes you can't get to, that's another two whole months to complete.

I suspect that the average non vip player would lose far more than 10%.

 

What if you start two months after launch? Get instant boost to crafting to compete?

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Just now, APE said:

What if you start two months after launch? Get instant boost to crafting to compete?

Holy straw man batman. Never said anything remotely like that.  Of course your clock starts to tick when you purchase and begin playing the game, at least until ACE implements a "catch up".

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