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Skill mechanics - Official discussion thread


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3 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Non VIP caps at 24hr, requires daily login to maintain (at any point in a 24+last training time window). Could even trigger an EMail when the bank was full warning the player to come back and use it up.

VIP unlimited, can visit account on weekends or whatever, and not miss a beat.

That seem encouraging enough to me.

Would certainly be a quality of life improvement for both VIP and non-VIP... and it would be nice....but I think it still reduces the tedium/annoyance factor that they are hoping will drive VIP sales and on going revenue.

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4 minutes ago, angelmar said:

Would certainly be a quality of life improvement for both VIP and non-VIP... and it would be nice....but I think it still reduces the tedium/annoyance factor that they are hoping will drive VIP sales and on going revenue.

I think that deliberately adding tedium and annoyance to 75% of your paying audience is an incredibly dangerous and short sighted approach.

Build a solid and fun product for everyone first, then work on value add. If you start at making things unpleasant, you won't get or keep people that could eventually convert to VIP.

The moment a player wants a few days break from the game, they will see the value of VIP. Everyone wants some time off once in awhile, of even the best games.

 

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8 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Holy straw man batman. Never said anything remotely like that.  Of course your clock starts to tick when you purchase and begin playing the game, at least until ACE implements a "catch up".

But it isn't that different. If you aren't actively doing what is necessary (training-playing-owning the game), you'll fall behind.

I believe the numbers could be tweaked in regards to how long it takes to progress certain lines, but forgetting to train for a day here and there or several shouldn't destroy someones chance at being competitive to some degree.

Then again if someone is trying to be the top 1%, they should be actively doing what is necessary.

Although I do believe to be fully competitive, that VIP will likely be necessary and I have no problem with that. Winning should require some going above and behind the average.

Joe Casual that logs in once a week shouldn't be dominating the economy, crafting scene, taking castles by himself, etc.

So far seem one person say they won't have VIP and are fine with it. Until I see a majority of similar folks raising the red flags, I'm not going to see this as an issue.

See people with VIP and likely a lot worried about something that won't impact them and knowing what others will do before it has even happened.

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7 minutes ago, APE said:

What if you start two months after launch? Get instant boost to crafting to compete?

Better idea is increased training speed until you are caught up. Training time is half of normal time until you are where you would be if you started at the beginning.

Having people permanently behind for any reason kind of defeats the purpose of this whole system. Whether it's because they started later, they didn't log in at exactly the right time, or whatever. 

From the FAQ

"In effect, your characters keep advancing while you do things like sleep or go to work. You won’t be at a numerical disadvantage versus other players just because they have more time to invest in the game than you do."

Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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5 minutes ago, angelmar said:

Would certainly be a quality of life improvement for both VIP and non-VIP... and it would be nice....but I think it still reduces the tedium/annoyance factor that they are hoping will drive VIP sales and on going revenue.

This will drive me to pay no more for VIP that I was originally willing to pay.  Alt accounts will still be able to harvest/craft albeit a slightly slower, more tedious pace; and once the training is done, it's there forever.

More power is the only thing I would pay for to maintain VIP.  Inconveniences like the training will only make me a tired employee. ;) I guess I need to start training my sleeping patterns and alarm clock skills for soft launch.

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1 minute ago, APE said:

But it isn't that different. If you aren't actively doing what is necessary (training-playing-owning the game), you'll fall behind.

I believe the numbers could be tweaked in regards to how long it takes to progress certain lines, but forgetting to train for a day here and there or several shouldn't destroy someones chance at being competitive to some degree.

Then again if someone is trying to be the top 1%, they should be actively doing what is necessary.

Although I do believe to be fully competitive, that VIP will likely be necessary and I have no problem with that. Winning should require some going above and behind the average.

Joe Casual that logs in once a week shouldn't be dominating the economy, crafting scene, taking castles by himself, etc.

So far seem one person say they won't have VIP and are fine with it. Until I see a majority of similar folks raising the red flags, I'm not going to see this as an issue.

See a people with VIP and likely a lot worried about something that won't impact them and knowing what others will do before it has even happened.

How many crappy F2P phone games have you played?  

Even games like Clash Royal know the value of allowing you to accumulate a limited number of the the free chests they give away but force you to open every 4 hours.

The fact is, the early pips of any training, the stages ACE has been touting as THE ANSWER to how long the skill trees take to climb with the very good 3 or 4 to next node requirements, are all going to happen in shorter time periods than a person sleeps for. So the very thing they are counting on to make the training feel less onerous and time consuming, is now working against itself due to the fact entire early pips worth of training are going to be drifting by while people sleep.

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3 minutes ago, Teufel said:

This will drive me to pay no more for VIP that I was originally willing to pay.  Alt accounts will still be able to harvest/craft albeit a slightly slower, more tedious pace; and once the training is done, it's there forever.

More power is the only thing I would pay for to maintain VIP.  Inconveniences like the training will only make me a tired employee. ;) I guess I need to start training my sleeping patterns and alarm clock skills for soft launch.

There is a difference between active and casual, and I have been both in various games. 

Active will log in as often as required, and casual won't. The casual, as soon as they think they have fallen too far behind, will simply quit. This is especially true if the difference between behind and not is as vast as it is in the crafting/harvesting world.

While I do think the ALT accounts will be a problem even if ACE doesn't, pissing off your casual players to get at the alt players is not the way to go.

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4 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

How many crappy F2P phone games have you played?  

Even games like Clash Royal know the value of allowing you to accumulate a limited number of the the free chests they give away but force you to open every 4 hours.

The fact is, the early pips of any training, the stages ACE has been touting as THE ANSWER to how long the skill trees take to climb with the very good 3 or 4 to next node requirements, are all going to happen in shorter time periods than a person sleeps for. So the very thing they are counting on to make the training feel less onerous and time consuming, is now working against itself due to the fact entire early pips worth of training are going to be drifting by while people sleep.

What happens if you forget to open your chests?

This change is still potentially less time consuming than needing to grind out X like many games. I'd rather log in once a day or two and be okay with my progression than need to put int hours every day to get the same thing. Working with pulled from the air made up numbers.

ACE's goal is to get us in game and paying them money. This change does both, VIP or Non-VIP.

11 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

The moment a player wants a few days break from the game, they will see the value of VIP. Everyone wants some time off once in awhile, of even the best games.

I wouldn't mind seeing them sell full skill training and queuing in the shop that is separate from VIP. For those that want the perk but not the rest of VIP.

Buy 1, 3, 5, 15, 30 days at a time to give people the choice to pay for days they'll be away from the game. $.75-1.5-2.5-7-10 or something like that.

 

8 minutes ago, Svenn said:

Better idea is increased training speed until you are caught up. Training time is half of normal time until you are where you would be if you started at the beginning.

Having people permanently behind for any reason kind of defeats the purpose of this whole system. Whether it's because they started later, they didn't log in at exactly the right time, or whatever. 

From the FAQ

"In effect, your characters keep advancing while you do things like sleep or go to work. You won’t be at a numerical disadvantage versus other players just because they have more time to invest in the game than you do."

For clarity, I believe their catch up mechanic for a future problem is a mistake when it could potentially be avoided by making different design choices today.

However, how would you determine what could be caught up? One skill line? X number of points that would could technically have trained available to put anywhere at whatever speed?

Problem I see is we currently have this "new" VIP system. I still forget to log in and train things every 5, 7, 10 days or whatever. Would a new person be at an advantage to where they not only would have resources to know what to train to be more efficient (less trial and error) but possibly wouldn't have the lapses in training time as they are training faster.

It's messy and why I believe they should make changes now but likely won't. "Future dev problems"

"Permanently" behind assumes that others aren't doing the same and or that there isn't a cap. Eventually we appear to cap out so it isn't technically permanent.

While I like the passive system avoiding the normal mindless grind in some areas, I do believe we should still be active. Clicking a button frequently at the start and less so over time is still a lot less of a hassle than it could be imo.

That FAQ is still correct. If I currently max out while sleeping/working, it stops. Non-VIP will simply stop more often.

If clicking a few buttons is "investing" time in a game, not sure how Non-VIP or going to do when it comes to actively doing things in CWs.

Even if it didn't change, someone taking days/weeks/months off is still going to be very behind in the actual in-game progression that a few % here and there aren't going to make a huge difference.

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18 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

There is a difference between active and casual, and I have been both in various games. 

Active will log in as often as required, and casual won't. The casual, as soon as they think they have fallen too far behind, will simply quit. This is especially true if the difference between behind and not is as vast as it is in the crafting/harvesting world.

While I do think the ALT accounts will be a problem even if ACE doesn't, pissing off your casual players to get at the alt players is not the way to go.

Fallen behind what? What is the standard and how do you measure it?

Most games are made up of casuals from my experience and by this view, the game is already dead as 75% or more will behind in general areas of the game.

Be it training, obtaining resources, gear, POI, strongholds, winning whatever, building up EKs, and so on.

I don't see this as them going directly at Alt players as someone bought in that much is likely going to take the extra few minutes to click a few things once in a while.

Don't get where the idea this game was going to be log in once in a while and do stuff type of game. It has passive training, that is all. Still need to actively play the game regularly to accomplish anything.

If a "casual" player without VIP takes a few days off, they aren't going to be drastically behind. If they believe they are, weren't going to make it long in the game anyway.

However, I'd like to know what games this has happened before because every game I've played be it PVP based or not has the top percent doing everything faster/better and others lagging behind without the game imploding.

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1 minute ago, APE said:

For clarity, I believe their catch up mechanic for a future problem is a mistake when it could potentially be avoided by making different design choices today.

However, how would you determine what could be caught up? One skill line? X number of points that would could technically have trained available to put anywhere at whatever speed?

An amount of skill training equal to the time passed since the game launched. That's "caught up".

1 minute ago, APE said:

Problem I see is we currently have this "new" VIP system. I still forget to log in and train things every 5, 7, 10 days or whatever. Would a new person be at an advantage to where they not only would have resources to know what to train to be more efficient (less trial and error) but possibly wouldn't have the lapses in training time as they are training faster.

You're thinking about this wrong. The reason it's an issue is because of the timers. If you go to sleep but can only queue up a skill that trains for 4 hours... assuming you sleep 8 hours that's 4 hours lost. With VIP I can queue up literal days worth. And when I log in I can update my queue any time. So, I can get halfway through my queue and add a bunch to the end of it. Logging in once a day would be enough to keep adding to the end of the queue so it never gets messed up, and maybe even longer than that. The only way to mess this up is not playing for extended periods of time (days/weeks) compared to things like "I can't queue up a new skill because I was sleeping".

1 minute ago, APE said:

It's messy and why I believe they should make changes now but likely won't. "Future dev problems"

"Permanently" behind assumes that others aren't doing the same and or that there isn't a cap. Eventually we appear to cap out so it isn't technically permanent.

Permanently means behind from the max. Some people will be at the max. It means the whole design of "you won't be at a disadvantage because you don't spend enough time in game" that this system is supposed to be is lost because some people ARE behind because they aren't doing things like waking up in the middle of the night to queue up skills.

Also, last time someone calculated it out, it was something like 20 years to cap out. So, talk to me in 20 years about that.

1 minute ago, APE said:

While I like the passive system avoiding the normal mindless grind in some areas, I do believe we should still be active. Clicking a button frequently at the start and less so over time is still a lot less of a hassle than it could be imo.

That FAQ is still correct. If I currently max out while sleeping/working, it stops. Non-VIP will simply stop more often.

If clicking a few buttons is "investing" time in a game, not sure how Non-VIP or going to do when it comes to actively doing things in CWs.

Even if it didn't change, someone taking days/weeks/months off is still going to be very behind in the actual in-game progression that a few % here and there aren't going to make a huge difference.

It might not make a huge difference, but it is a difference. MMO players (and especially competitive PvP players) have a very large intersection with min-maxers. When people realize they've "fallen behind" (no matter how small of a difference it is) it can de-motivate them from playing the game. If they fall behind because of a system intentionally designed to make things annoying for them because they didn't pay the monthly fee... well, they are not going to be happy. They're not going to play, and they are going to tell everyone else how unfair the system is dissuading other people from trying it out.

Guild Leader of Seeds of War

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nice info.

procs:

now we get deeper skills faster. will see how (without 100% leveling whole tree)

less loading on notice system?

better UI

 

cons:

now we need to waiting level up for pip to get effect. 2+ days without any changes for high tier skills.

 

ps I miss some remake on skills. is it coming soon?

pss I also miss some rebalance on skills. for example, in different trees one tier 3 can give more than in other tree tier 5+ skill (time difference still the real)

psss I do not understand, does one handed passives from combat tree working with paired weapons?

crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: rangefall

Discord makkon#8550

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1 minute ago, APE said:

What happens if you forget to open your chests?

This change is still potentially less time consuming than needing to grind out X like many games. I'd rather log in once a day or two and be okay with my progression than need to put int hours every day to get the same thing. Working with pulled from the air made up numbers.

ACE's goal is to get us in game and paying them money. This change does both, VIP or Non-VIP.

I wouldn't mind seeing them sell full skill training and queuing in the shop that is separate from VIP. For those that want the perk but not the rest of VIP.

Buy 1, 3, 5, 15, 30 days at a time to give people the choice to pay for days they'll be away from the game. $.75-1.5-2.5-7-10 or something like that.

 

You will accumulate 3 or 4 chests (can't remember right now) which represents 12-16 hours of idle time, that you can open all at once when you open the game again.

The thing is, everyone who has been worried that adding more training lines to general for VIP should be screaming bloody blue murder over this.  If a casual player only logs in for the weekend under this system they will be receiving roughly 1/3rd of the training of a VIP who can log in at roughly the same rate as only tier 1 skills take less than 6 days to fill out. Now factor in the missed switches during the off hours on the weekend, and suddenly they are only getting 1/5th the training of the VIP players, especially at the beginning when they need to catch up the most.

Ultimately, this makes the answer to "training takes too long" complaint to be to make training take even longer for casual players. I honestly can't believe anyone who ponders the consequence for more than a few minutes would think this is good idea.

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The implementation of a pip system which requires re-queing for non-VIP accounts is a terrible decision IMHO. The passive training system is NOT fun. It is NOT the game. It is a CHORE. Making that chore MORE burdensome for the non-subscribing players is not a good decision. Making that chore LESS burdensome for the VIP players IS a good decision. Allowing the queing of multiple nodes is an excellent reason to pay for VIP. Requiring VIP membership to avoid having to check training every 14 hours is a fast way to pissoff your player base and drive down your population. Entry level to game enjoyment should be a wading pool...a nice gradual and easy descent. You shouldn't throw your players into the deep end...knowing that they can't swim...and tell them they won't get a life jacket unless they pay for one. PLEASE reverse this decision. Reward VIP by making things easier and more efficient. DO NOT punish non-VIP by making the existing system (which is ALREADY tedious) even more so.

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I would like to see on new test server possibility to gain instantly trees (for example, we can get 30 pips for testing and button to wipe our skill tree)

will help to test some stuff

crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: rangefall

Discord makkon#8550

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Just now, KrakkenSmacken said:

You will accumulate 3 or 4 chests (can't remember right now) which represents 12-16 hours of idle time, that you can open all at once when you open the game again.

The thing is, everyone who has been worried that adding more training lines to general for VIP should be screaming bloody blue murder over this.  If a casual player only logs in for the weekend under this system they will be receiving roughly 1/3rd of the training of a VIP who can log in at roughly the same rate as only tier 1 skills take less than 6 days to fill out. Now factor in the missed switches during the off hours on the weekend, and suddenly they are only getting 1/5th the training of the VIP players, especially at the beginning when they need to catch up the most.

Ultimately, this makes the answer to "training takes too long" complaint to be to make training take even longer for casual players. I honestly can't believe anyone who ponders the consequence for more than a few minutes would think this is good idea.

I've played CR, getting at that if you forget to open them, they stop coming. You only get so much at a time, regardless of the legnth. Just like skill training. You click, it progresses, reaches a limit, stops. Forget to come back, you are out the chests/skills you would of earned.

Training takes "too long" because people are impatient and miss that it's supposed to take a while being passive. Too used to grindy everything out to reach the imaginary finish line.

For now, this isn't the end of the game imo. Hopefully the skill lines get a nice overhaul and times are tweaked Like everything, we are basing our views/conclusions on missing context.

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3 minutes ago, Gradishar said:

The implementation of a pip system which requires re-queing for non-VIP accounts is a terrible decision IMHO. The passive training system is NOT fun. It is NOT the game. It is a CHORE. Making that chore MORE burdensome for the non-subscribing players is not a good decision. Making that chore LESS burdensome for the VIP players IS a good decision. Allowing the queing of multiple nodes is an excellent reason to pay for VIP. Requiring VIP membership to avoid having to check training every 14 hours is a fast way to pissoff your player base and drive down your population. Entry level to game enjoyment should be a wading pool...a nice gradual and easy descent. You shouldn't throw your players into the deep end...knowing that they can't swim...and tell them they won't get a life jacket unless they pay for one. PLEASE reverse this decision. Reward VIP by making things easier and more efficient. DO NOT punish non-VIP by making the existing system (which is ALREADY tedious) even more so.

Nope, allowing VIPs to queue more is selling power with VIP.  And p2w will wreck a western mmorpg faster than anything else. 

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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7 minutes ago, APE said:

Fallen behind what? What is the standard and how do you measure it?

Most games are made up of casuals from my experience and by this view, the game is already dead as 75% or more will behind in general areas of the game.

Be it training, obtaining resources, gear, POI, strongholds, winning whatever, building up EKs, and so on.

I don't see this as them going directly at Alt players as someone bought in that much is likely going to take the extra few minutes to click a few things once in a while.

Don't get where the idea this game was going to be log in once in a while and do stuff type of game. It has passive training, that is all. Still need to actively play the game regularly to accomplish anything.

If a "casual" player without VIP takes a few days off, they aren't going to be drastically behind. If they believe they are, weren't going to make it long in the game anyway.

However, I'd like to know what games this has happened before because every game I've played be it PVP based or not has the top percent doing everything faster/better and others lagging behind without the game imploding.

Two players starting at the exact same time, one VIP, one Not.

If the guy who is paying is getting ahead of me without putting in more effort, simply because the game is giving him a training advantage that I have to miss sleep and screw with my schedule to overcome, that is demotivating enough for me to quit playing altogether.

It's not the idea that players need to login every day, it's the idea that they can't even pick the time that they login at within that 24hr window. 

If they are not on the game, at exactly 2.39hr after they started that first pip of tier 1 training, they start to fall behind someone who has paid, even though they may actually play more than them, but simply have some other real life obligation at that exact time.

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To address APE's "clever" comparison to Clash Royale, if Artcraft can ensure that I never have to queue skills more than once every 12 hours, and can do it from bed, then I have no problems with this system.  That's not the system that's currently planned.

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10 minutes ago, APE said:

I've played CR, getting at that if you forget to open them, they stop coming. You only get so much at a time, regardless of the legnth. Just like skill training. You click, it progresses, reaches a limit, stops. Forget to come back, you are out the chests/skills you would of earned.

Training takes "too long" because people are impatient and miss that it's supposed to take a while being passive. Too used to grindy everything out to reach the imaginary finish line.

For now, this isn't the end of the game imo. Hopefully the skill lines get a nice overhaul and times are tweaked Like everything, we are basing our views/conclusions on missing context.

Right, and in that crappy game you can open with your phone at any time, the window is 16 hrs. Where as with CF that you need to on your home computer to access has the lowest window at 2.39hrs.  

The problem is they are relying on those early, low hour tiers to fix the complaints about training taking too long, and then they go an make it all but impossible for non-VIP to actually use those early training tiers to accomplish that goal.

It's a freaking pushmepullyou

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