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ZYBAK

Crowfall Goes Pay to Win? VIP Skill Tree Changes and PTW Discussion

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Today I'm talking about Crowfall VIP Skill Tree changes that have a few people losing their minds. Artcraft has changed the functionality of VIP membership and made it to where VIP members are going to have a statistical advantage over non VIP members. This is clear Pay to Win right? In this video I explain why this is a good change and why it's not a big deal and will in fact be good for the game long term.

Stick with me fellas. It'll make sense in the end!

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So going to play devils advocate... but first.

ACE did not really add substance, with this recent update outside of new icons. They instead punished non-vip members to add value to VIP members. Its not a direction I like... but I agree that they didnt just massacre the non-vip members. Heck Im 5 months behind people, or since I didn't start training combat until a few weeks ago Im actually closer to 7-8 months behind people and with right gear and build I can still stomp other players. Because the most important statistic in the game.... is player skill.

 

But that said I feel that people are going way to overboard with perfect Bad scenarios for why the new non-vip skill training is so bad. It took me literally less then 5 minutes to set up a remote control system on a smart phone that allows me to queue up skills from my phone. It literally takes me less then 30 seconds to queue up new skills, so the only time I wouldn't be able to queue up... would be if I was asleep, and with proper time management and training multiple skills at a time. I can cut down that lost time by a fair margin.

But the sad thing is I don't need to do any of that to still be competitive. Like I said, in regards to combat training im 7-8months behind.  Even if I trained 2 hours a day. Because Im a full potato and don't want to take the 30 seconds to queue up new training. It would still take me over a year to fall behind to the point I am right now. And the more I train the harder it is for me to be a potato and only train 2 hours a day, eventually the game will prevent me from being that stupid. because I can only train so many tier 1 first pips. 

 

So I will agree... I don't like the way they added value to VIP members... But its not the end of the bloody world. 

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You totally missed player type 6, the casual that is interested in this game because it doesn't matter how much time he invests, no one gets better skills by playing more than him. He just got shown the middle finger and got told to buy the "optional" VIP to get this benefit out of passive training.... 

There are also players that don't have the time and the money to pay for VIP but still want to be competitive.

 

You just make jokes about being better at cutting trees, but there is also a combat tree. Maybe its not that big of a deal when vessels and armor stats come into play but still its and advantage, hence let it be a 5% advantage in stats just because you didn't have the time to login... that is a noticeable difference and just loosing to someone with the same skill level, gear and took the same skill tree but he is further in it and therefore has this slight advantage just because he bought VIP. This is not good for a PvP game.

 

Sure it hurts the multi account users (which I am not), but it hurts the casuals more and they are the backbone of a game like this. Sure a constant income is important for ACE, but there are a lot of other things outside the campaigns/PvP that could make VIP interesting. Lower tax, increased build limit, more inventory space.... There will be multi account users, even with this change, but they are minority.

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You guys are too focused in ALTs accounts. Soon we will see the dying because there is no one online but hey no more ALTS around, good job.

7 min in and all you talked about are how this is good against alts, really not seeing the forest for the trees. Wont finish it.

I am taking a break of this debate, people are thinking i am doing this because i just want to save some money and think this is just trivial. Will wait for ACE to come and tell me what the hell they want to do.

Edited by BarriaKarl

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1 hour ago, BarriaKarl said:

You guys are too focused in ALTs accounts. Soon we will see the dying because there is no one online but hey no more ALTS around, good job.

7 min in and all you talked about are how this is good against alts, really not seeing the forest for the trees. Wont finish it.

I am taking a break of this debate, people are thinking i am doing this because i just want to save some money and think this is just trivial. Will wait for ACE to come and tell me what the hell they want to do.

its still better than no life or interest grinding


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5 hours ago, why_me said:

....

You just make jokes about being better at cutting trees, but there is also a combat tree. Maybe its not that big of a deal when vessels and armor stats come into play but still its and advantage, hence let it be a 5% advantage in stats just because you didn't have the time to login... that is a noticeable difference and just loosing to someone with the same skill level, gear and took the same skill tree but he is further in it and therefore has this slight advantage just because he bought VIP. This is not good for a PvP game.

Trust me, the combat skills are really not a big deal. At all. If anything, harvesting and crafting skills are far more important. Ever since the last skill wipe I pretty much "wasted" all my skill training time by going deep into the Vessels and combat Leadership skills. Most of the vessel functionality is not working yet and combat leadership turned out to be really bad to the point I don't even equip the passive. The only skill training benefits I get in combat are from the AT skill trees, which are arguably better, but those are all tier 4 or higher, so considerably easier to train with the new pip system. And I don't feel gimped at all when compared to someone who maxed a bunch of combat skill trees. Player skill, team comps, gear (only adv weapon atm) and good group coordination is a lot more important than having an extra 5% in combat. 

Also, there is a major skill revamp coming up in the horizon. So we have to wait for that as well to see what the new skills look like. 


 

 

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^ this

the crafting and harvesting trees are the only ones with interest and impact below a slow boring/troubling general power creep.

the old Vip literally offered nothing to non combat players. they dont care about playing 3 classes and were the ones most margianlised and threatened by alt account cheese

Edited by Tinnis

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It's amazing how the definition of P2W has changed for many people. It went from a complete paywall that needed to be crossed to have any chance to be competitive to just about 'any payment is P2W'.  And for record, I'm not watching the video. I'm sure I could have read a text version in less than three minutes.


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Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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The question is: why they don't make this game pay to play than? That would solve the problem here. (But i guess maybe the playerbase gets to small than to support so many different campaigns and many other mmos proved that a subscribtion based model besides of WOW and Final fantasy often "fails"  respectively can't move on with a p2p model these days f.e. TESO)

And from my perspectiv Crowfall is pay2win in the current state ( even if it is slightly and only a little step) because ====> you NEED to HAVE VIP realisticly to become longterm competitiv or atleast have no disadvantage. The only good thing is that multiaccounting is busted with the current changes of the skill queueing system but was this worth it ? I am not sure?

 

Suggestion: Maybe give Non-VIP players at least one slot in the queueing system for the following pip of the skill (this would be better and more balanced).  VIP-players can have many more slots in the queueing system.

Edited by Kreigon

One Ring to Rule them all, One Ring to Find them, One Ring to bring them all an in the darkness and bind them.

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5 hours ago, why_me said:

You totally missed player type 6, the casual that is interested in this game because it doesn't matter how much time he invests, no one gets better skills by playing more than him. He just got shown the middle finger and got told to buy the "optional" VIP to get this benefit out of passive training.... 

There are also players that don't have the time and the money to pay for VIP but still want to be competitive.

George literally just addressed this above your post. You can setup a remote control system on your phone...easy. Second, the skill trees will more than likely not look like how they look now in terms of stat value. Sure we don't know what they will look like but i'm guessing they won't be nearly as powerful as they are now.

 

5 hours ago, why_me said:

Maybe its not that big of a deal when vessels and armor stats come into play but still its and advantage, hence let it be a 5% advantage in stats just because you didn't have the time to login... that is a noticeable difference and just loosing to someone with the same skill level, gear and took the same skill tree but he is further in it and therefore has this slight advantage just because he bought VIP. This is not good for a PvP game.

This is a terrible argument for CF. Being an sandbox PvP game, with the huge amount of skill trees, etc...there are far too many factors that would go into a fight to even consider a situation like this. At no point in the game, besides maybe the very opening of a CW (where I imagine there will be very little fighting, similar to SC, while players get their initial infrastructure build), will you ever run into a situation where you and someone else have the exact same gear, exact same abilities, exact same skill tree choice, etc. Even if you did, the fight would almost always be determined by outside factors like; whether you're in friendly or enemy territory, whether your faction/guild/etc had better resource management and thus build a giant catapult that's attacking or you just straight up have better discs, etc.

It's not only a PvP game. It's a RvR game based with PvP

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Do people even know what pay to win is?  Having to log in more than once to click a button because you didn't sub is not pay to win...

38 minutes ago, jetah said:

It's amazing how the definition of P2W has changed for many people. It went from a complete paywall that needed to be crossed to have any chance to be competitive to just about 'any payment is P2W'.  And for record, I'm not watching the video. I'm sure I could have read a text version in less than three minutes.

Couldn't agree more.  To quote the Emperor:  "Sad."


"Food for the crows..."    Nobuo Xa'el

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