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Crowfall Goes Pay to Win? VIP Skill Tree Changes and PTW Discussion

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Has almost 12.5m in sales, still wants to make it a P2W. I kind of knew they were money hungry from all the spam I received from them with their second tier crowdfunding but dang... If only you could refund a kickstarter payment >.>

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1 hour ago, Xyphien said:

Has almost 12.5m in sales, still wants to make it a P2W. I kind of knew they were money hungry from all the spam I received from them with their second tier crowdfunding but dang... If only you could refund a kickstarter payment >.>

I dunno... If I pay a couple hundred dollars for additional accounts and they give me a very real advantage, is that P2W?   

Edited by Regulus

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21 minutes ago, Xyphien said:

Has almost 12.5m in sales, still wants to make it a P2W. I kind of knew they were money hungry from all the spam I received from them with their second tier crowdfunding but dang... If only you could refund a kickstarter payment >.>

It really isnt even p2w o_O what is your definition of p2w

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1 hour ago, Xyphien said:

Has almost 12.5m in sales, still wants to make it a P2W. I kind of knew they were money hungry from all the spam I received from them with their second tier crowdfunding but dang... If only you could refund a kickstarter payment >.>

The sad part is that i cant even argue otherwise. My first thought when i read the news was that it was a oversight on their part ("Nah they wouldnt do that... right?"), but after 2 days and no info (even after one of the Devs joined the thread and answered other pointless questions) i really cant put my hand on the fire for the DEVs anymore.

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1 hour ago, XxViBe said:

It really isnt even p2w o_O what is your definition of p2w

Yeah like others said the definition of P2W varies widely per person and lots of times is flexible and changes based on the specific topic or feature at hand that one doesn't like.

Personally its not P2W because you can acquire VIP tokens through in game means. If something (specifically items related to character power/skills) that can be bought with irl cash can also be gained through playing the game, then nope not P2W in my view.

Edited by pang

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8 hours ago, coolwaters said:

...I worry about scripts and macros that simply automate the non-VIP training, thereby circumventing this non-circumvention method.

 

Thanks @cyjax :lol:

Edited by miraluna

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There is a difference between P2W and Pay For Convenience.  P2W is locked off content that gives a significant advantage that can only be purchased with money.  You can train with or without VIP, just that one requires less effort and time.  From what I am seeing, VIP gives like a meh advantage over non VIP.

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The outrage is created by the way the game was advertised and how the system was supposed to work, a buy2play game with passive training. Now it has shifted from a buy2play + sub game imo, because I cant login in every 2 hours to train a new "ding". Not because I dont want to, but simply because I have other stuff to do that is more demanding than the game. Which in turn will put me at a significant disadvantage to other people. Because this will not be just a one time incident this will probably be happening more than once, so in the end I will be months behind other people.

But will wait to see how the new trees are going to look, but with the current system that you have to login at every 2.39 for a tier 1 node, its very disatisfying, and I wouldnt say its just an advantag to pay for VIP its straight out mandatory to pay for it if you want to stay competetive, because having a "job" ingame gives you money which in turns give you gear.

Would you want a non VIP player in the guild that can play for tops 2 hours a day? He wouldnt be contributing much except being another body that had one full trained node after a week of playing while the VIP players would have several.

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13 minutes ago, deiphoboz said:

The outrage is created by the way the game was advertised and how the system was supposed to work, a buy2play game with passive training. Now it has shifted from a buy2play + sub game imo, because I cant login in every 2 hours to train a new "ding". Not because I dont want to, but simply because I have other stuff to do that is more demanding than the game. Which in turn will put me at a significant disadvantage to other people. Because this will not be just a one time incident this will probably be happening more than once, so in the end I will be months behind other people.

But will wait to see how the new trees are going to look, but with the current system that you have to login at every 2.39 for a tier 1 node, its very disatisfying, and I wouldnt say its just an advantag to pay for VIP its straight out mandatory to pay for it if you want to stay competetive, because having a "job" ingame gives you money which in turns give you gear.

Would you want a non VIP player in the guild that can play for tops 2 hours a day? He wouldnt be contributing much except being another body that had one full trained node after a week of playing while the VIP players would have several.

You make some good points

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18 hours ago, pang said:

Yeah like others said the definition of P2W varies widely per person and lots of times is flexible and changes based on the specific topic or feature at hand that one doesn't like.

Personally its not P2W because you can acquire VIP tokens through in game means. If something (specifically items related to character power/skills) that can be bought with irl cash can also be gained through playing the game, then nope not P2W in my view.

It's not P2W, but it is a horrible early game experience for those that have not had the time to build enough assets to trade for it and do not have VIP. I guess every account starting with VIP could mitigate that.

Regardless, it still goes against the basic premise that VIP is supposed to give flexibility and not more power.  If VIP is all but essential to using the passive training effectively, then the goal of passive training to provide a system that " You won’t be at a numerical disadvantage versus other players just because they have more time to invest in the game than you do." will only be true if VIP does give you more power.

As much as I totally despise how effective ATL accounts are at bypassing the intended training limitation of the game, making the average single user, non-VIP players (expected to be 75-80% of players), user experience crappy to accomplish what is really just an annoyance control, is not the way to deal with that problem.

Build good and fun systems first, then figure out how to monetize better systems, don't just build crappy systems and force people to pay to bypass the annoyance.

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20 hours ago, Xyphien said:

Has almost 12.5m in sales, still wants to make it a P2W. I kind of knew they were money hungry from all the spam I received from them with their second tier crowdfunding but dang... If only you could refund a kickstarter payment >.>

I think it is hilarious that you believe 12.5 million in sales is considered a lot of money for an MMO developed and based out of the USA.

"Money hungry"? You sound like one of these socialist millennials who believe companies should operate on collected unicorn farts.

News flash, you can attract more investment by being able to show a capability to generate profit and sustain cashflow, and investment is important for growing your product and services in leaps and bounds which in of itself is critical for staying current with trends and changing customer demands - as opposed to becoming stagnant, outdated, and irrelevant because it takes you 15 years to create a product that is DOA when released.

Secondly, predictable and reliable cash flow is important to a business that has significant outlays for salaries, where a software development shop is a prime example of this. You'll never see a software project death spiral more quickly than when you pay your engineers peanuts or miss a couple payrolls. Monthly subscription fees are an incredible vehicle for building reliable cashflow. I didn't even touch on the ongoing required support costs for keeping the game and all of its servers running for the live game.

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38 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Build good and fun systems first, then figure out how to monetize better systems, don't just build crappy systems and force people to pay to bypass the annoyance.

 

Great plan when you have a hundred million in seed funding. Kind of like how Facebook didn't put in ads until they had critical mass.

I think navigating this is quite a bit trickier for ACE. I think if they had the money around to just wait on it they wouldn't be soft launching either.

The reality is, there is a segment of the player base who will never be happy with any kind of perk being taken away from B2P game owners and locked behind VIP. That there is the real problem, with non-VIP people likely being unwilling to relinquish anything valuable enough to make VIP worth buying.

The initial B2P access and the structural unwillingness or inability to pay subs by the vast majority of potential MMO customers makes this an issue that will never be solved to satisfaction for all parties.

But again, ACE won't have the funding and time to sit around trying to make everyone happy, they'll crunch numbers to determine what percentage of turnover in new players they can accept, and how much percentage buy-in to VIP they need, and structure their product to hit those figures.

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It would be naive to think CF could survive on box sales alone.  Every game in existence has some sort of VIP/Premium solution to get a steady income every month to cover salaries, office/server rent etc. 

Giving players a small incentive to buy VIP is fine, its not P2W as some people have been complaining about. If you have a standard phone timer, you can easily keep up with a VIP player. 

P2W would be giving VIP players a clear advantage that a non-vip player could not get. 

Edited by zinnie

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@TinnisExactly.

The idea that a sub to fund the game we all want to last for years must avoid all of the things is ridiculous. 

Faster and more convenient content consumption is not pay to "win" anything. If there is some marginal increase in combat performance over time, so what? 

This is a common sense and maturity issue.

Free VIP for the good of us all.

edit: and no, CF will not "survive" on box sales, much less thrive. This game requires ongoing and substantial development.

 

 

Edited by coolwaters

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17 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

i mean, let compare to say...

Albion Online

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Eve online

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Elder Scrolls Online

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oh

That's a really good point. You could probably point to dozens or hundreds of other games that give direct XP improvement gains for paying into the sub.

Since the goal of passive was to allow players to keep up "while they sleep and work", the real answer is to ignore the complaints about VIP extra training being P2W, and simply build a system that is easy and fun for EVERYONE to use.

It's struggling against the idea that VIP should not give a training advantage, but it kinda does, but people won't pay for it without some advantage, but it kinda doesn't cause if your willing to login 24/7 you can do the same thing, but practically that's impossible, and that is not fun gameplay for anyone anyway, that is causing all these problems with both how it's implemented, AND how ALT accounts work.

Simply put all training into a time pool, assign it when you login and have enough for a pip, rather than queuing ups skills, and give VIP a 20-50% discount on all skill costs in time. This makes every skill gain something pleasant you experience directly. 

When players start to hit the really long training node times, or when they have returned from a long absence and have hundreds or thousands of hours to assign, that VIP cost discount will look really really good, if you're the kind of player that happens to care.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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ace isn't trying to build Pay-to-win....they are trying to build Pay-to-work....else they'll all be homeless and there will be no game

Edited by Tinnis

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9 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

That's a really good point. You could probably point to dozens or hundreds of other games that give direct XP improvement gains for paying into the sub.

That's one of the core fallacies here. Pay to .... win? 

Hardly. Pay for faster content consumption that leads indirectly to better stats? Sure. That's been the norm forever. Want it free? custard play more than the VIP player. You'll harvest more, even with slower skilling if you play more. Having the skill won't bang on those trees for you. That's elbow grease and that's what you are trading for your decision not to buy VIP: elbow grease.

edit: I really wish everyone would watch Zyback's video from like 26:50 - 29 minutes or so. I agree with his take. Buying the box, a one time payment of as low as $30, and then expecting as much content as anyone else, no matter how much they support the game while also expecting long term development with real quality is selfish and stupid.

Don't be selfish and stupid. Support CF and make VIP a real revenue driver. Then buy the VIP.

Edited by coolwaters

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